Man with hammer attacks SEPTA rider; no one helps.
 

This is just fucked up. But as I thought about it, I wondered what I would really do if I was standing in the same car. I don't think that I would have assisted either for fear of getting hit by the hammer even once. I'd like to think that it wouldn't be the case, but in all honesty, I don't think I would have helped until after the assailant was finished and left the scene.

I feel the same way as you Cynthetiq, except that I feel that I would have probably tried to help. I would've tried to grab another passenger or two with me, though. If they wouldn't come, I'd like to think I would've done it anyway.

To be honest though, I would have deliberated it for a good 10-20 seconds...I don't think I'd be able to just jump right in.

Regardless, that's just fucked up and quite eye-opening.

I was pretty shocked by that too...I live in Philly. I couldn't just sit and watch that. I'm pretty sure I would have jumped up and grabbed the guy, knock him down, ask for more help. I didn't read all the above post, but the attacker was supposedly having serious ongoing mental issues, didn't take medication as prescribed...etc.

This reminds me of the incident on a bus in Canada a while back where the guy actually beheaded a passenger and no one stopped him. I really don't understand how people can just stand by and let things like this happen, I just don't. I'm 99% sure I would have done something other than get away (speaking from experience).

How do people justify doing nothing? Self preservation?

Uh, yeah. That's why many people are still alive. While it sucks to have this happened (and even more so if it would have happened to me), I would have gotten away from the scene. Being 5'11 at 135 pounds, I doubt I would stand much of a chance against a fairly large man with a swinging hammer.

I will help in a medical emergency 100% for sure. I know because I've done it before.

But in an assault situation? I'm not so sure. The man had a hammer which he pulled out of the knapsack. I don't know what other weapons he may have had on his person. The threat of him potentially having a SHARP object like a knife is enough to make me pause and not participate.

People usually survive gun wounds, not the same with knife wounds. Most knife wounds can be fatal just due to bleeding out.

Just a few years ago I found myself as the center of a 5 on 1 circle of violence after a few guys figured they'd have some fun with one of my friends. He took off and left me to fend for myself. And I'd do it again without hesitation.

But this guy from the train was a special case. There's a certain level of violence that people just aren't accustomed to seeing up close in real life and you can't realistically expect anyone to process all of that and make a split second decision.

Besides, everyone knows about retard strength.

Having been in this sort of situation a couple of times, I know that as soon as the first person reacts to help, half a dozen others will join in and dogpile the bad guy. But that first person needs to act or else everyone stands around with their mouths open like guppies.

As a note, I would do it against a guy with a hammer. I don't think I'd be able to do the same against a guy with a knife. Even a gun I'm not sure if I'd have the balls.

But I'm more afraid of knives than any other weapon :\

What if it had been a white man being assaulted, instead of black man?

What if it had been a black woman being assaulted, instead of a black man? Or "better" yet, what if it had been a white woman? And would her age and appearance, as well as her race, made any difference?

Yes, the assailant wielding the hammer was a pretty big guy. But there was an opportunity – perhaps as much as 20 seconds – where the assailant had his back turned to everyone, and was bent over, while hammering his surprised victim. That should've been opportunity enough for another man to tackle the assailant.

as far as I'm concerned the only time I would have gotten involved is if it was someone in my party, meaning that it was my wife or friend that was being attacked.

other than that, no, it would not have mattered if it was a woman, child, adult, black, white, asian, hispanic.

Would have intervened, have intervened in the past. Honestly when someone has their back to you and their attention on beating the crap out of someone else, taking them down and putting them in a compliance hold isn't very difficult, especially if it's one guy. Though I'd probably spend a little time checking out other's in the area to see if I thought they were in on it. Last thing you want to do is find you're the guy with his back turned.

My ex and I used to have a code. If I said "I'm going to the track tomorrow." She immediately took my daughter and left the area.

And yes, knives, screwdrivers and any other pointy items scare the shit out of me more then a gun... certainly more then a hammer.

I would have used a simple . If he decided to try and attack me with the hammer, I'd take it from him and break his right collar bone, disabling his attack arm and making the choke a lot more painful.

I'll run if there's a gun, but I'll probably intervene for anything less.

If anyone is interested in being prepared for a real life dangerous physical situation like this, I strongly recommend taking a martial art like krav maga.

Oddly enough, Ch'i was jumped the other night by some punk that wanted to take his wallet. Ch'i ended up using the guy to practice moves on, things like elbowing the back of the attacker's head and jump reverse side kicks.

I'm not sure if I'd be able to help but I'd like to think I'd try.

Since I'm not particularly big and strong, maybe first I'd look around for something hard to strike the guy with. If nothing was available, I'd try and get him in a strategically painful place.

I'd probably go for the hard kick to the groin first if I could find no weapon. I'd also try to grab the guy's hand that was holding the hammer, to stop him from hitting the person and myself with it.

You really don't need to kick, esp. if from behind. Just grab and squeeze, trust me it'll get his attention. Probably give the other guy time to regroup or escape. Might even cause the guy with the hammer to drop it. People lose concentration on everything else when their genital area is invaded.

We used to teach free women's safety courses where I worked. If you live in a large urban area there's likely one available somewhere. You can learn a lot in a day or two course.

It's an interesting commentary on the political/philosophical makeup of this particular forum that concealed carry hasn't been mentioned yet.

Only if you think that 14 replies in a community of 30,000 is statistically significant.

What would I have done? Don't know. I would like to think that I would have stepped in, but circumstances may have dictated otherwise.

Quite frankly, it's not the best circumstance for firearms. You're in close quarters with the subject, you have a lot of people that could wonder into the line of fire, and you have the victim very close to the aggressor.

It's a lot easier to simply render the aggressor unconscious instead of running the risks of things like ricochet or collateral damage. Choking the man won't hurt anyone else.

With respect, fights like this are fluid and dynamic situations. It is unlikely that the opportunity will present itself for you to "break his right collar bone".

Rear naked choke is a good submission move, but getting it on properly is difficult.

I don't think you can plan for anything specifically in a street fight - especially against a distrubed person. It is fine to have a basic strategy to rely on, but specific strikes, holds and moves are impossible to plan for.

Yeah I don't know how you shoot him without being concerned about fatally hitting the victim.

As far as coming up with a plan you almost have to plan it to some degree. In this case you know you're going to be approaching from the rear. Unless you wait for the train to stop, doors to open and come around the other side. Myself I wouldn't use a choke hold, just not what I was trained to do, big no no in LE anymore. I'd go for the back of a knee, they only bend one way. Then use his on weight against him and his shoulders to guide him down in the direction I wanted him to fall. Once down a knee in the mid back just below the shoulder blades and a hand holding his wrist palm up. If done correctly he'd be on the ground before he knew what was going on.

But as much as having plan is a good idea, so is not being committed to it. I was going for a move just like this one day. Didn't realize he could see me coming in a mirror and had a baseball bat in his coat. Luckily I was able to move out of the way of his swing and the cement column behind me wasn't. He hit that column so hard I think he damn near broke his wrist. He was real unhappy to be wearing handcuffs that day. "Umm, no I won't loosen your cuffs, you just tried to take me out of the gene pool with a bat."

Yes. Definitely outside of the realm of expected scenarios. I think I'd be in shock.

See, this is why I carry a weapon at all times. I'm 5'3" and 110 pounds at best and I have stepped in to break up stuff like this. I used to spend a lot of time in New York and I never stood by while someone was being attacked. The thing I've noticed is that often if one person makes a stand others will try to help but they won't be the first ones to do it.

Honestly, this isn't correct. While there's certainly some variation in practice, the rnc would really be all I need to subdue an average person. Considering his back was to the passengers, it would have been cake to be on him with everything in place before he even knew what was going on. I've done it before.

And the collar bone break is very simple when in most rnc positions. A quick right elbow to the collar bone would be a simple break.

I'm not trying to be a badass or anything, this is simply how it would happen.

One thing I've noticed is the more rural the area the more likely someone is to step up to the plate. In urban areas people seem to simply try to get the hell out of the way.

But I do agree once one person steps up others follow.

Maybe life really is-

"Lead, follow or get the hell out of the way."

"Only if you think that 14 replies in a community of 30,000 is statistically significant. "

I suppose you're right that 14/30,000 isn't so significant. But on the other hand, 29,986 of 30,000 are on different topics. I guess I was looking at 14 of 14 on-topic posts hadn't yet broached self-defense.

And I wasn't suggesting that someone, anyone, should have come out shooting. I was just curious that it hadn't been mentioned at all. In other forums that I frequent, it would have come up in the first hal dozen or so posts.

has anyone here ever been faced with this type of situation?

speculation carries a big stick...

reality comes down hard...

i've ridden that train line more times than i can count.
i can't say what i've have done had this happened near me--i've stopped things like this (not involving a hammer) before, but i didn't really think about it before i acted.
i can say that some yahoo with a gun would be a much bigger and dangerous problem than a guy wielding a hammer, and that the pulling of a gun, even in order to stop something like this, would freak me out FAR more than this would have.

i see no reason to carry a concealed weapon on a crowded subway in a city.
i've lived in cities a long time--seeing someone with a gun DOES NOT make me think "safety"...

Okie-dokie then.

I disagree, however, based on my own experience with violent EDPs and druggies, that things go as planned. EDPs and druggies and psychopaths are simply unpredicatable. I've seen them take full baton strikes that would land you in hospital without flinching. I've seen one 150 pound disturbed man fight off 5 trained police officers. I've seen a man with a concussion and fractured jaw pop right back up and try to knife the arresting officer.

That's the reality I've known. None of it happened the way it was planned.

I'd listen to highthief and Tully Will... They have on ground experience in these sorts of situations. You have gym training.

that's the other reason why I would walk away...

I've not been in any fighting situations in many years. To the point where I don't trust my actions or inactions to move instinctively and without reservation.

Well I can't say it never went as planned. But when it doesn't go as planned it- REALLY doesn't go as planned, IMHO.

IMO, things got much worse when meth became common. You get guys from the back seat telling you "I knew you were coming for me, Ive been seeing your black helicopter for three days now."


Yeah, you're in the back of my 12 year old Jeep because our department has money for a helicopter... and the time to follow you around for days on end.

I would have intervened. Never been in that situation so I can't say for sure of course.

Yeah, you know trainings one thing.

I worked as a glorified (not by much I might add) babysitter at a juvenile detention center while I worked my way through school. Not long after getting out of school I was promoted to Parole and Probation. After eight weeks of training I was sent out to serve my first arrest warrant. Teenage girl, how hard could it be? I got there and told her she was under arrest and she WENT OFF. I was young and confident, went through the stuff we learned in training right by the book. I managed to get her talking, sobbing, but talking too. After about an hour of talking I managed to get her to agree to go in peace. She just wanted to use the bathroom first. I went in the bathroom with her looked around and saw there was no way out but the door. I left and stood outside the door with it ajar by about 30%, wanted to be able to hear if she was hurting herself etc.. After about one minute she came flying out of the bathroom with a trash can in hand and, as she screamed what a mother fucking asshole son of a bitch I was, she even called me a cock sucking nigger. As she screamed she threw used tampons in my face. I was, to say the least, taken off guard. She then ran for the living room where she grabbed a fireplace poker and proceeded to swing it at me wildly. She landed several pretty good blows before I got it away from her and got her in cuffs. I dragged her kicking a screaming into the back of my Jeep. She might have weighed 100lbs soaking wet. I remember carrying her by the back of her belt with one hand as she kicked and screamed. She kicked at the doors all the way to the dentition center, did nearly $1000 damage.

My clothes, the first jacket and tie I wore to my new promotion, were covered in blood- mostly mine. I showered at the detention center and wore a clean jail jump suit home. That 30% pay increase suddenly didn't seem like all that much.

And no, I didn't hear the end of it from co-workers- ever.

I don't think it'd be fair to characterize my experience as "gym training". I have 6 years of krav maga under by proverbial belt now (in addition to about a decade of other martial arts), and the man I trained under learned it directly from expert training in the Israeli Defense Force (anyone in the Bay Area can probably figure out who I'm talking about). Krav maga isn't like taking karate or tae kwan do around the corner. It's intended to be 100% real world applicable.

While I appreciate that I've not been in the military or law enforcement, I have been in maybe a dozen street fights, most notably when I was in an attempted mugging about 4 years ago. The training kicked in and I was able to disarm and subdue 2 assailants in virtually no time at all because I was trained specifically to deal with that kind of situation. It was apparent to me immediately that the training I had been working on for years was applicable in 'real life'.

Does that mean I know I'd win? Of course not. Still, the fact is that the man would have his back to me. That, to me, suggests a reasonably high likelihood of success in attempting to knock him out.

BTW, she called you a n***er, Tully? I could have sworn you were white. :confused:

Yep, very... don't even tan well. I don't suck cock either. Well there was that one time at band camp... I kid I've never even been to band camp.

Long time riders of mass transit in large cities develop an almost instinctual habit of moving away from danger. In DC, they also tend to let any WMATA people know. It's encouraged. Otherwise, the green line would be one non-stop rumble.

You never know about situations like that. You don't notice it until its in full gear. You'd feel pretty stupid if you found out after doing something rash to the hammer guy that he didn't have a hammer, and that the other guy had a knife.

Ha, ha! Good times, man!

My first weird one involved a 300 pound naked mentally disturbed woman in an apartment full of feces.

I am so thankful to be in publishing these days.
-----Added 29/9/2008 at 09 : 26 : 30-----
That's a good point - I used to get in physical confrontations, due to work, very regularly. But that's years in the past and at 40, while I'm still in shape, I know I'm nowhere near as fast as I once was.

However, I'd still intervene - I know that once I jump in, so will many other riders. It's just mob psychology and little to do with personal bravery or individual skill.

95% of the time when I'm on the train, my brother is standing right next to me. I'm the "short" one. When I'm in enclosed spaces like train cars, my attention to other passengers's dispositions and actions would seem paranoid to most people. If I saw someone looking around nervously with his hand in a backpack for a while like this guy was, I'd probably already have reported it to a conductor and asked them to have police waiting at the next station. Within a few seconds of him attacking someone, my brother and I would have glanced at each other, one of us would either ask the other to grab the hammer arm or offered to grab it, and we would have charged him and had him on the ground within fifteen seconds. Our size would be enough of an advantage that we could take someone down pretty easily even if one of us took a hammer to the face.
Everyone here pretty much knows where we all stand on it, and enough threads have gone down that path that we usually don't bother anymore.

I would not consider shooting someone who only had a blunt object, especially in such close quarters, unless I were sure it was the victim's only chance. With a knife or gun, I would clearly have the legal right to use lethal force to defend someone without trying anything else first (and would be a lot less inclined to try to tackle someone,) but I'd be a lot more willing to try nonlethal force on a guy with a hammer even if I would be within my legal rights to shoot.

Yeah, I probably should have questioned that statement first. Maybe it's the mustache?

You know I kept that tie. Hung it on the coat rack in my office as a reminder of "when shit goes bad." Some ten years later we hired a young lady right out of some college in North Dakota. One day sitting in my office she glanced over at it and said "This thing's disgusting. You need to get it dry cleaned or... or... gez... just buy a new one."