Strange Famous

She wanted to prove that the world wasnt such a dangerous place.

I suppose it is a bit disrespectful to say, but her killing is somewhat ironic.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

BadNick

Sad. Humanity sure does include some dark sides.

Baraka_Guru

It isn't disrespectful, because it's true. Unfortunately, the world isn't uniformly peaceful. Not everyone is steeped in kindness. Though her effort is commendable. It's a sad story.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Willravel

Turkey should be ashamed.

Baraka_Guru

Why? They've detained the man. Do you mean they should have provided her with special security? I'm not sure what you mean.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Cynthetiq

you're willing to pin a whole country on the actions of 1 individual?

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Willravel

Because they need to take responsibility for the behavior of their citizens not by responding after they commit crimes but by working to prevent crimes. It's not catching a criminal that creates a low crime rate, it's preventing people from becoming criminals.
Willing and able. Collective responsibility for the individual is what "society" means.

Baraka_Guru

So should America be ashamed too? And Canada?

By your judgement, the world should be ashamed. What you say here doesn't mean much to me, will. Sorry.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Willravel

Yes, we all absolutely should be ashamed, though you a lot less than me. Canada is a lot safer than the US. I view our crime rate as something to be ashamed of and as such I work to try and fix it.

Maybe if more people gave two shits, things might actually change.

Baraka_Guru

Okay, this I can agree with.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Cynthetiq

sorry that smells like a bunch of horseshit.

by that statement bak is correct, there is NO place in the world that should not be ashamed.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Willravel

It's not about the shame, but being motivated to actually do something to fix the problem. Her murder could have been avoided, just like almost every other murder in every other country, had people stepped forward with potential solutions and the tenacity to see them through.

Cynthetiq

your words were shame, not Turkey should have done more.

All murders can be avoided in some fashion, but removing them 100% would be removing free will from everyone.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Willravel

The shame is motivation, but they should have done more before they should be ashamed. See? It's both.

You're the first one in this thread to have said 100% of murders. I've never said that.

Ustwo

As long as humans are human there will be motivation to murder as it is in our natures. The only way to remove this nature would be eugenics, where the traits are isolated and either treated at the cellular level or removed from the gene pool all together.

Psychologists will never get rid of murder any more than they will get rid of anger, envy, or jealousy, biologists might. Not sure if in the long run thats for the best.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Strange Famous

I also dont get the Turkey should be ashamed comment.

The blood is upon the hands of the killer, not the whole nation.

In 2006 a girl I went to school with was murdered by a serial killer in Ipswich (Stephen Wright - who was sent down for killing 5 women) - a lot of things went wrong in her life, and around her, that lead her to the situation she was in when she was killed - but I know for sure who is guilty, and it is Stephen Wright, not England.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Willravel

Ah, "human nature". There's really no such thing. There are certain behavioral patterns that are motivated by biology and environment, but no "nature" to speak of.

Some places on the planet have extremely low crime rates. http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...mes-per-capita

The discrepancy cannot be explained by "human nature".

Baraka_Guru

Will's right. We should avoid using terminology that should have been left behind in the 19th century. But I understand what you're getting at, Ustwo. I'm not sure "deprogramming" our genetic dispositions toward certain behaviours is a viable solution. The solutions should be found in a balance between biology, psychology, and societal formulations.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Cynthetiq

that's the implication of crime prevention of stopping murder right? shouldn't we just get the precogs into the mix and arrest people before they commit the crime.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

genuinegirly

This is a terribly depressing story.
Mainly because someone entrusted their fate so completely to an imperfect humanity.

There are some places in our world where women should not travel in small groups or without a man.

In our travels, Tt and I have met several women who were backpacking across Eastern and Western Europe. Some had the goal of seeing the world on their own. While this is an understandable stretch of independence, I was always concerned for their safety.

__________________
"Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq

"violence is no more or less real than non-violence." roachboy

roachboy

i know that this is not the part of the story that i should be stuck on.
i know that i should be reacting to what happened to her.
but this is kinda interesting.

here's a longer story from a turkish news service:

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/t...d=231&sz=83045

so first off, will's response is also that of the representatives of "the turkish people" who were interviewed for the article.

but here's what i don't really get: a piece or action like this would be about the documentation. she had a cool outfit (there's a photo in the source-piece) and the idea was nice--but it'd be about the photos, about the narrative of the experience--because the experience itself would disappear as it happened.

so i'm surprised that she was doing this piece by herself.

this is not in any way to justify what happened to her--i am just a bit perplexed by the fact that she made this decision, not only because it put her in danger (which she had to have suspected, despite the naive "i want to be able to count of the kindness of locals.." which often--but not always--you can---ESPECIALLY hitchiking, which is a dicey way to get around--i used to do it alot when i was a mere sprat until i had a couple really hair-raising experiences, and i was a bearded boy not dressed as a bride hitching around the u.s....) but also because in a sense it's at cross purposes with the piece as a conceptual action.

very odd.
a very odd tragic situation.

addendum:

a little more research and...

here's a statement about the project from the alkatraz gallery, which seemed to have something to do with it--it's more complex and interesting a project that it sounds from the mini-blurb:

http://www.kudmreza.org/alkatraz/arh...g_bridges.html

the webpage of the "artist-brides" is down...

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Strange Famous

The implication of crime prevention does not really apply to this area.

Drug crime can be prevented by treating addicts rather than criminalising them.

Property crime can be addressed to a degree by giving the youth different options.

This kind of sex killing really cannot be prevented by any social measure: in any society, in any collection of humans, there will be a certain number who are prone to this kind of atrocity.

I have read arguments that sex murder only began in 1888... but I dont believe in them.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

roachboy

here's some more about the documentation element of the piece:

http://flickr.com/groups/turkey/disc...7604435574784/

very sad.
very strange.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

dlish

i usually never disagree on wills comments.. but..he did make a recovery.. however lemme throw a spanner in there..

so lemme get this straight.. if turkey should be ashamed for this, shouldnt all turks also be ashamed for trying to assassinate the Pope John Paul II?

based on this reasoning..i think its only fair

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Ustwo

While that website is pretty much devoid of meaningful data, assuming it was valid would do nothing to diminish the human nature argument. Its not like our natures would be uniform under all circumstances or across populations.

To ignore our instincts and genetic heritage is the mistake of physiologists over the last 50 years, though I thought they were finally starting to understand we are not a tabala rasa to be programed by our environment. Perhaps I am wrong, and maybe they will go back to trying to treat things like homosexuality with therapy again.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Willravel

Biology (genetics) and environment shape us. There's no "human nature". We've had this conversation before. "Human nature" is not a scientific term and has roots in religion and philosophy.

The genetic predisposition to murder could be found if people were looking for it, and behavioral patterns can be picked up at a young age. As for environment, everything from poverty to war cause people to think that murder is an acceptable practice. I don't see anything there that we can't attempt to solve.

abaya

Yeah Will, I'm not following you on this one... murder can happen anytime, anywhere, to and by anyone. This is just another unfortunate case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time...

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Cynthetiq

I don't think you can't solve it. Again, in solving it, you've removed the ability for 100% free will.

I choose to not kill people on a daily basis. I have the choice to do so almost every second of every day. There are some people who cannot make that choice, it's made for them those are "flawed" in some chemical way they cannot help that.

But there are those who chose to do so. They choose to murder, they choose to commit crimes.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Willravel

I'm not talking about removal, I'm talking about reduction. Extreme reduction, but reduction none the less.

The problem is that we're not working hard enough. Austria has .9 murders per million people. That should be our goal. The US has 56 murders per million people, for comparison. Turkey has about 38 murders per million people.

lotsofmagnets

a question: recentish news here was that a group of lithuanian men took a girl and group raped her in my very neighborhood. who should be ashamed? iceland for not preventing the crime? lithuania for producing the individuals who collaborated in committing the crime? the individuals who committed it or the girl for providing them with a target and an opportunity? murder will always happen or should we look forward to the days of the thought police? sounds like bucket loads of fun to me.

and how does one stop someone from committing impulse murder?

__________________
mother nature made the aeroplane, and the submarine sandwich, with the steady hands and dead eye of a remarkable sculptor.
she shed her mountain turning training wheels, for the convenience of the moving sidewalk, that delivers the magnetic monkey children through the mouth of impossible calendar clock, into the devil's manhole cauldron.
physics of a bicycle, isn't it remarkable?

Willravel

Rape isn't an "impulse murder".

I can't speak to the specifics of the crime or the perps as I'm not familiar with them, but rape can be prevented a number of ways.

Women learning self defense and carrying pepper spray or a taser are active ways to prevent rape, along with having a large police force and having citizens that call the police immediately upon witnessing the crime. Not only that, but the good samaritans of the world should do all they can to try and help.

Passive ways would include empathy and emotion management taught in schools and by parents. Impulse control would be another important lesson. The most important? Anger management. All of these things have been proven time and again to reduce dangerous and unhealthy behavior in teens and adults when introduced at an early age.

Strange Famous

People who commit sexual murders are not of the kind of people who can be reached by "empathy program's" or "anger management"

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Willravel

Spoken as someone who clearly doesn't understand sexual crimes.

Edit: if you add in school psychologists who can spot sexual abuse of the children, it would reduce sexual assaults and murders even more.

genuinegirly

They are looking for it.

They have found that most males who commit violent crimes have abnormally high levels of testosterone. Link for source., but it is not clear if violent criminal activity drives an increase in testosterone or if the criminal activity is caused by an androgen (male hormones including testosterone) imbalance.

People in rural Turkey most likely wouldn't be able to afford or access appropriate treatments, unless you see castration as appropriate.

__________________
"Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq

"violence is no more or less real than non-violence." roachboy

lotsofmagnets

sorry had a 2nd thought, posted a 2nd time and it automerged.

this is not prevention, this is stopping the act. prevention would involve somehow stopping the guys from coming together with the intent to commit the act. also your other suggestions only deal with the aftermath not the actual act so can´t be considered "prevention" by any means.

i do agree with this in theory but i´d love to see the evidence "proving" these things. i believe it´s 78% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

__________________
mother nature made the aeroplane, and the submarine sandwich, with the steady hands and dead eye of a remarkable sculptor.
she shed her mountain turning training wheels, for the convenience of the moving sidewalk, that delivers the magnetic monkey children through the mouth of impossible calendar clock, into the devil's manhole cauldron.
physics of a bicycle, isn't it remarkable?

Strange Famous

Sex murders are NOT sex crimes.

It is fashionable to call rape a hate crime and not a sex crime, and I think it can be either... but, to take an example, "Jack the Ripper" did not commit sex crimes, but he was a sexual killer.

I'm afraid you speak as one who doesnt understand the difference.

Thinking that Peter Sutcliffe or Ted Bundy or Richard Ramirez wouldnt have become what they did if they had better "empathy" classes at school is quite sweet... but very silly, and obviously wrong.

They were what they were because they were monsters.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Willravel

If the crime is not committed, then it is prevented.
I didn't post any statistics.
I'm not using the legal terminology, I'm using the descriptive terminology. Besides "sex crimes" isn't even a legal term.

If you're going to try and take the intellectual high ground you should probably avoid using the term "monster" to describe someone suffering from mental illnesses.

RetroGunslinger

I think I can be a little more disrespectful than willravel when I say that that girl was stupid, and pretty much had it coming. I'll give her some props for hitchhiking, that wasn't so bad, but DRESSED AS A BRIDE? She had it coming in that case. She might as well have had a sign reading "Free Rape" dangling from her neck. At least bring a fucking knife, just in case, like a back-up plan if her hypothesis turns to shit.

Also, I partially agree with Will, while I do think that it's an individual thing and that you cannot hold an entire country responsible for one person, you still have to consider that crime rates are low in many countries and high in others for reasons. Now, I don't know about the crime rate of Turkey, but I have a feeling that everyone isn't eating rainbows and shitting butterflies.

__________________
It's a rare pleasure in this world to get your mind fucked. Usually it's just foreplay.

M.B. Keene

lotsofmagnets

so calling the police while witnessing the crime prevents the crime?
the statistic was pointing to the "it is proven" line. who proved it?

this isn´t my quote. no words into my mouth please

ok, i think will is onto something. arm every woman and teach her self defence while preventing any male from also learning the same self defence (male female thing a little sexist but is merely illustrative for simplification purposes) have totally morally correct police in EVERY location, preferrably within eye view of each other, citizens that will call the police upon witnessing people who *may* look like they have the intention to commit a crime and every person should, regardless of their own personal safety jump in and defend the meek. BANG! a crime free utopia. not quite my vision of utopia but i guess it would be crime free. bring on the thought police

__________________
mother nature made the aeroplane, and the submarine sandwich, with the steady hands and dead eye of a remarkable sculptor.
she shed her mountain turning training wheels, for the convenience of the moving sidewalk, that delivers the magnetic monkey children through the mouth of impossible calendar clock, into the devil's manhole cauldron.
physics of a bicycle, isn't it remarkable?

roachboy

well, it's pretty obvious that the reason for the expressions of collective shame in the hurriyet piece i bit above is that the information about this is travelling around the world on the internet--as is the nature of the piece--and so it makes folk look bad. this is not rocket science---of COURSE folk in that position would be ashamed.
the idea behind the piece makes it EVEN MORE embarrassing than it otherwise would be.

what it amounts to--not just as an individual rape and murder, but given the narrative that accompanied the project--->some guy in turkey demonstrates to everyone who reads about this that people are assholes.

who wouldn't be ashamed?
i expect that had the same thing happened in, say, ustwo's community, he'd be all sackcloth and ashes for the way in which it embarrassed the community as a whole, even as he might also be running his "people are assholes because they're genetic programmed to be assholes" line.

but i don't buy any of the genetics arguments.
these effectively justify the murder of this person by arguing that it is simply the performance of some in-built characteristic--and this by extension to exculpate everyone involved not only in this but in almost any action anywhere by any one ("whaddya mean? it's in my nature"...this is that odd little story about the scorpion)
which seems a genetics-based argument against civilization when you think about it.

but in this particular case, it's implication is that the "proper" attitude to have to this story is
"o well, shit happens. people are fucked up. next."

which i think is a kind of crass little response. little in every sense.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite