Hain

Violent people want and commit violent acts. Good people want and vote for violent people to be put to death. So the violent people have the will to actually do it while voters just sit back and pay others to do it.

Reading up on prison breakouts, the likelihood of them increases when one is in Belgium. Due to a failure of containment, we are going kill off the violent and sick, instead of improving the methods and structures for containment, correct?

Kahn... this is a dead horse. Am I really going to change your opinion? Are you really going to change mine?

Kahn

Do you live on the same planet as me? Are you familiar with the current prison system we have in place in the US? I mean, seriously. This country has countless unpleasant problems with its current prison facilities just filled to the gills with animalistic killers just waiting for the opportunity to kill again. This doesn't even broach the topic of escape, they're killing others within the prisons, and not just other prisoners, but staff members who risk their lives to keep those animals from getting out. And you want to keep putting more of these animals in those prisons still? All those animals who have been sentenced for heinous crimes against their fellow man, who have proven with their criminal acts to be unfit in our society? You want to continue letting them live? Are you serious?

Are you actually suggesting that we build bigger or better prisons to house, at OUR expense mind you, these same animals who have proven they are DESERVING of the death sentence bestowed upon them in the first place? I am perplexed at the notion that I, as a taxpayer, should pay to house a convicted murderous animal, who has done nothing but prove their unworthiness to be allowed to remain in our society, or be viewed as deserving the right to remain alive, for KILLING INNOCENT PEOPLE .... and your argument against the death penalty is the state of the current prison system?

Uhhhhh ... ... no, I don't see that happening man, but it's been an interesting debate just the same.

And people wonder why there is so much rampant vigilantism in our society today.

__________________
Attention everyone: We have another potential asshole in the area !

You don't have bad luck, the reason bad things happen to you is because you're a dumbass !!

Dinner $50
Drinks $30
Motel $40

Finding out she swallows -
PRICELESS!!!

LoganSnake

Maybe if we abolished the prison system completely and just executed without question, people would stop committing crimes. Well, they still wouldn't, but the rate would drop quite significantly. Wouldn't suit the "democratic" nature of this country though.

__________________
Maturity is knowing you were an idiot in the past. Wisdom is knowing that you'll be an idiot in the future. Common sense is knowing that you should try not to be an idiot now. - J. Jacques

Tully Mars

Yeah! Kill them all, let God sort them out.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

LoganSnake

Exactly! Sans the statement about god.

__________________
Maturity is knowing you were an idiot in the past. Wisdom is knowing that you'll be an idiot in the future. Common sense is knowing that you should try not to be an idiot now. - J. Jacques

Tully Mars

Ok, lets just kill them all then. I say we start with the shoplifters. Hell, we do this right and we can do it better then China and the Arabs.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Strange Famous

"kill them all, God will know His own...."

I think that might be a bit extreme, not to mention it would probably cause full scale civil war...

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Jinn

I must be callous, I read the story without emotion..

Just another day in the US of A...

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

LoganSnake

Of course. People wouldn't want their right to do crime with a chance of lenient punishment to be taken away.

I am being sarcastic, but think of how much money the country will be saving by eliminating the prison system. Hell, eliminating half the inmates (say, ones in Supermax prisons or the criminally insane) would save a shitton too.

__________________
Maturity is knowing you were an idiot in the past. Wisdom is knowing that you'll be an idiot in the future. Common sense is knowing that you should try not to be an idiot now. - J. Jacques

Tully Mars

I'd be happy if we just opened the doors and let out everyone whose sole crime was either buying, selling or growing pot. I'd bet you could pay for a huge chunk of universal health care with that move alone.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

LoganSnake

Indeed. I don't really understand why the US doesn't just legalize and tax it. Hell, they can sell their own and profit. Alcohol is legal, so are coffee and cigarettes. Adding another "social drug" to the pot (heh, pot) wouldn't hurt a bit.

__________________
Maturity is knowing you were an idiot in the past. Wisdom is knowing that you'll be an idiot in the future. Common sense is knowing that you should try not to be an idiot now. - J. Jacques

Ustwo

Or just not spend it at all and stop taking it from the tax payers in the first place.

Dunno why the concept of not spending is so hard for people to grasp but then I look at the amount of credit card debt out there.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Martian

Maybe it's because my country wasn't founded on the phrase "we the people," but I still don't understand this. Are you suggesting that everybody in the nation get together and take a vote? Clearly the people are divided on issues just like this one.

That's a cop-out. My point was that these aren't animals (and please spare me the biology, it has no place here). These are human beings. You can call them every name, every epithet you can think of, but you can't just arbitrarily decide they're not human.

And again. Does it make it easier to cry for blood if you don't think of it as human blood? I don't understand that attitude at all.

This is not up for debate. Living amongst the rest of the population is not an option anyone is advocating. The disagreement stems from something much more basic, which is the right to survive at all. I cannot condone the taking of a human life. I will agree that in the most dire and immediate circumstances it may be necessary, but I do not agree that it is right. The circumstances here are neither dire nor immediate. The damage has been done. What is there to be gained by any further acts of murder?

I lack neither reading nor comprehension skills. I'm fully aware of the events that transpired as they've been related.

I ask you again; what is there to be gained from this? It certainly does their victim no good.

You're contradicting yourself. Wanting them to "shit themselves in fear," essentially wanting them to live the remainder of thier lives in fear and torment is not taking the same course of action? Do you really believe there's any deterrent for this kind of antisocial sociopathic behaviour?

I believe you misunderstand me. My issue with the death penalty does not stem from the reasonable doubt argument (although that certainly is a practical concern.) Once more for clarity, I cannot condone any course of action that leads to the taking of a human life. Regardless of what they've done, regardless of (to be perfectly crude) how fucked up they are. There is no justification for murder.

You're correct that this has dismayed me greatly, and that I initially was far more emotional about this than is the norm for me. I don't yet know why that is; it's a question I'll need to ask myself at another time. I am feeling calmer now and am thus better able to present my arguments on this matter, but my opinion has not changed. Killing these people doesn't show anyone that "we mean business." The death penalty is not a deterrent to sociopathic behaviour and stating that it is runs counter to our understanding of the psychology behind such behaviour. The idea of deterrence is a justification for the real intent of the death penalty, which is retribution. It is my opinion that this is not a justifiable reason to take a life, particularly when there are much more productive ends for such individuals.

I look at someone who's capable of these sorts of crimes and I see another human being. This woman who was supposedly the ringleader started out the same way you and I did. She had a mother and a father, presumably a family and a childhood home. The question that I'm forced to ask is where did she go wrong that you or I didn't? What made her into what she is? If we can answer that, we may be able to prevent others from following in her footsteps. Killing her, while satisfying on a personal level, ultimately does no good for anyone.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

Tully Mars

I don't have any credit card debt. But they keep upping my credit limit?

Would still rather fund health care then a lot of the things we're currently borrowing money to fund.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

m0rpheus

Why not? If you believe that killing a man for a crime is the solution, why do you not believe in killing a woman for the same crime?

I won't call for them to be executed, because to me the death penalty is just state sponsored murder, but I do hope they are locked away forever.

__________________
"it never got weird enough for me." - Hunter S. Thompson

Punk.of.Ages

Bingo!

Murder is murder no matter how you lay it out.

Ever heard the phrase, "Two wrongs do not make a right."?

I'm sure your mom gave you that one a few times.

__________________
"The fact is that censorship always defeats its own purpose, for it creates, in the end, the kind of society that is incapable of exercising real discretion..." - Henry Steel Commager

"Punk rock music is great music played by really bad, drunk musicians." -Fat Mike

Jinn

As an aside, an unborn FETUS is not a person. They killed one person. Calling it an "unborn child" is like calling it an "unbuilt car." It's a bunch of fucking parts. Until it's assembled, it's not a car, is it?

Thanks for avoiding this error in the future.

JinnKai

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

Hain

This is another fun issue. As far as I am concerned life is a sexually transmitted disease. I still know that the product of that disease will most likely be a baby.

Without a point: You don't beat on anyone, period (unless they really deserve it, like fucks that try to have sex with unconscious women). This goes doubly for children and pregnant women in my book.

Kahn

Let me begin this response by stating that I am in no way intending to insult you or slight your views in any offensive manner. We have a very interesting topic being debated, one I'm rather enjoying being party to, and one I will continue to debate until I no longer have the energy to speak or the voice to be heard.

I think it needs to be strongly reiterated that this crime did occur in the US, so it must be dealt with according to the laws of that nation, which have been voted upon and enforced by society as a whole or in some part, quite literally, for centuries. Your inability to understand this concept, or the reasons behind the voted upon laws clearly stems from an entirely different society with their own apparently very different views towards, at the very least, this particular topic at hand.

I agree that there is a struggle in our society with the notion that killing killers is a justifiable response to the atrocity mentioned herein. This is why we have courts with a group of the accused's peers gathered as a whole to decide the penalty for such a crime as a group intended to represent the voice of the people of the community. This is also why we have elected officials who represent the society as a whole with their views on all facets of the legal community to establish what is and what is not acceptable behaviour as a guideline for the entire community to adhere to.

I have to concede your point here. Yes, they are indeed human, and yes my labeling them as an animal or lunatic is a basic emotional response to the atrocity they have committed. This serves as two purposes, however. One, it clearly demonstrates my disdain for their ilk and the evil they bestow in general. Two, it helps to differentiate their kind of "human" from the rest of the gene pool who, at the very least, are appalled by the actions this type of "human" is obviously capable of and willing to do.

Make no mistake about this. I have no reservations about "crying for blood" in this situation. I do not need to dehumanize a murderer to consider him unfit to live. We have rules that we must, as a society, live by. The most important, in my book is, simply put, not torturing or killing another human being. This rule, like any other rule should and does have, it has a penalty attached to it. I believe that if you take the life of a member of the community, your life becomes forfeit by definition of the rule.

This "human" member of our society broke this rule in a most inhumane and unthinkable way. I feel the penalty should not be swayed from and should be enforced to the fullest extent that the law will allow. I realise some states have voted against the death penalty and I'm willing to accept their right to do so. I'm glad to live in a state that enforces the death penalty for convicted murderers who have proven, beyond doubt, they are unfit to remain a part of society as a whole and simply serve no good purpose to the community in any part.

It should also be noted, for a state to enforce the death penalty, there are certain criteria the crime committed must meet in determining the death sentence as a valid penalty for "murder". I won't list them here as they are extensive and derail the topic at hand, but you should understand that this is not something committed to emotionally or without serious consideration and debate. It is the law of the land in many states, and as such, SHOULD be enforced. Please know there are extensive checks and balances utilized in determining this form of punishment and it is not administered lightly.

The fact that I fully support this concept is purely a personal preference and should be judged separately from the matter at hand.

You are correct here. I misspoke when I said something to the effect of "living amongst the rest of the community" or some such. In my defense, it was very late here for me and I was getting a bit lethargic from lack of sleep.

What I MEANT to say was .. I believe they no longer have the right to live .. period. Now I don't mean that to sound so basic and generalized as saying "if you commit murder, you should be put to death". I realise there are circumstances to every crime, including acts of brutality that involve the taking of another human life. I believe that if you kill someone in self defense, there should be some reprieve from the death sentence, as the act of murder in this instance was of a human instinct to survive. I also believe that murder committed in the heat of passion or extreme emotional duress, such as finding a lover cheating and you just snap. I feel there should be SOME kind of leniency here, but not much. There are other example I could list, but I believe you begin to see my point here.

That being said, if you brutally torture someone INNOCENT, and then kill them, or perform acts that summarily result in their death, for no sane justifiably understandable motive other than the pure bliss one such as this breed of "human" seems to get from killing, you have nothing to offer me or my society that I care to extract from you. Your life is forfeit and I'll gladly be the one to pull the trigger or push the plunger that ends your sick, miserable existence.

You must pardon me on this one, as I was attempting to be facetious in the hope of keeping this debate as light and unoffensive as possible. My attempt at humor was not only ill-received, but misplaced as there is no place for humor in this discussion.

In a word ... justice. I realise the victim in this will never see another day and will never know that justice is or is not served in this matter on her behalf. I also believe there aren't any family members who really care enough about the victim to benefit from the outcome of this matter either, and if there are, then I've missed their mention thus far. However, I still remain, as do the rest of my community, many of which who are equally outraged by the heinous crime committed and seek some resolution to this unforgivable act. You may ask me yet again "but why the death sentence" and I can simply reply "because that is the penalty for such a sick and evil crime".

I think you may have misunderstood me here. I don't care how humane a person who is capable of the sick, evil, inhumane act of torture and murder of another human being is treated .. on a personal level. Personally, I'd like to wreak equally unthinkable wicked and evil acts upon the "human" who did this to that poor woman, but I realise in my heart that this would simply put me on their level and make me every bit the monster they are. It is an emotional response that bespeaks my outrage and contempt for the sick bastards who did this and, upon reflection, an unreasonable response.

I also know in my heart that I am better than the "humans" charged with this crime, because I know the right and wrong of this act and am able to restrain myself from committing such heinous acts. Thusly, I have separated myself from their kind of "animal", being an animal myself, but demonstrating I am a superior breed of animal by comparison for demonstrating humane compassion and emotional restraint.

Summarily, I concede that their execution should be as humane and respectful and humanly possible .. we are going to have to live with our actions after all .. but, should be enforced as expediently and decisively as the law will allow.

There are people .. animals .. evil criminals who reside on "death row". Convicted of heinous crimes against humanity and sentenced to death for said acts, rightfully so I believe. These "animals" live far better than some impoverished people guilty of no crime, save being poor. We pay to house these "animals" and provide them with the most posh of environments (considering they're imprisoned and sentenced to death) and amenities most hard working families struggle to attain with sweat and tears, giving them the most humane end to their miserable existence possible. So we are capable of being humane. I think we need to be more diligent in being strict about enforcing the sentence, as we are about being humane to the condemned.

Yes. At least on some level and to some degree, I do. If you stop dragging your feet (society in general, not you specifically) about enforcing the death penalty and prove to convicted murderers that they WILL be put to death for committing so heinous a crime, that EVENTUALLY the message will sink in .. to at least some of these sick bastards, and some is still better than none.

As it is right now, someone commits murder, for whatever motive or rationale, and they know they MIGHT be sentenced to death, depending on if their specific crime fits all the necessary criteria to grant the death penalty, and at worst, may have to be incarcerated for the rest of their natural born lives. Many of these sick individuals don't care about being put in the prison system, because they know they can still survive .. and in many cases, survive perhaps even better than they did out of prison, or at least within an acceptably reasonable manner. Knowing this, they don't care to suffer the punishment for murder, because the payment of their own execution is not enforced enough to scare them away from killing others.

I can. I believe I can detach myself just enough from the emotional attachments I have to the very concept of killing another human being to realise there must be some equally appalling penalty for such an act. I believe in the notion "an eye for an eye" wholeheartedly. I believe if you commit an act against your fellow man, that you should pay an equal price for your act. If you steal something, you should have something taken away from you. If the "something" you stole was the life of another human being, I believe your life should be the price you pay.

I have to strongly disagree with you here. As I said earlier, if you actually execute the sick "animals" who commit these sorts of heinous crimes in an expedient fashion .. EVENTUALLY .. the message "we really do mean business" will become all too clear to the rest of the sick animals in society not yet guilty of such acts, but potentially capable of them, and most certainly to those being executed, as it will most likely be the very last thought that should cross their sick, twisted mind.

You can label the result of enforcing the death penalty as retribution or anything else you like, it matters not to me, I won't discuss the semantics of it here. The fact remains it is a necessary evil that gives us a very strong reply to the act of murdering another member of our community.

As for the "much more productive ends for such individuals" that you mentioned, I have no idea what could possibly be equally punishing to the convicted killer while still being productive to our society in any fashion. This just feels like some half-hearted suggestion made by a less than fully committed resolve. If you cannot condone or rationalize "any course of action that leads to the taking of a human life", then I respectfully suggest you to step aside and leave this matter to those who can, and will, because from where I sit, you offer me no reasonably acceptable solution to changing my current thinking.

By definition, a sociopath is a person, as a psychopathic personality, whose behavior is antisocial and who lacks a sense of moral responsibility or social conscience. They can either know right from wrong, and simply choose to do wrong regardless, or not know right from wrong and simply do wrong out of ignorance or defect. For me personally, there should be no shades of gray here. You display antisocial tendencies and commit immoral acts .. FOR WHATEVER REASON .. you should still be held accountable for your actions.

I sympathize with you here and am equally saddened to think on how terrible this person's life must have been to compel her to display such tendencies and commit such acts. It sickens me, quite literally, to know that there really are people out there like this, just outside my door perhaps, or around the corner, just waiting to explode like the ticking bomb they literally are. Thinking of the hell they must have had to endure which will eventually lead them to actually committing such brutal acts of violence and escalating them to transform into unthinkably evil monsters is incredibly disturbing, to say the least. I literally pity them, I do. The saddest reality of all is, we may never be able to answer the question of "how or why" could someone do such things.

That being said, in all sincerity, does not excuse the heinous crimes committed against the victim in this story and should be dealt with accordingly. There are countless accounts of abuse victims who have grown to lead absolutely normal, non-abusive lives without so much as raising a finger to their fellow man. Being abused, traumatized, mistreated, and so on and so forth, does not justify violating the most sacred rule in the book .. "thou shalt not kill". I think we can and do agree that this is a very good rule, and should never be violated in any normal circumstance. The act of murder in this instance was certainly not normal and should be dealt with by committed resolve and a certain equally fair response.

This notion is absolutely absurd on many levels and I'm really not interested in debating semantics with such a closed mind. However, there is one point I felt compelled to mention that you clearly have missed. An unbuilt car will never become a human being .. and .. quite literally .. is an object you can stop making at any point. An unborn FETUS .. whether an actual human being or not .. YET .. WILL eventually become a human being whether you will it or not, unless of course you choose to abort the fetus .. which in its own right belongs in an entirely separate thread, NOT this particular discussion.

To make this comparison is as asinine and ridiculous as comparing apples to oranges in a debate about the death penalty and it's ramifications on society as a whole. Please refrain from making random generalized and opinionated comments such as this that do nothing FOR the conversation and take FROM it the appreciation many others may have for reading here.

__________________
Attention everyone: We have another potential asshole in the area !

You don't have bad luck, the reason bad things happen to you is because you're a dumbass !!

Dinner $50
Drinks $30
Motel $40

Finding out she swallows -
PRICELESS!!!

Martian

Kahn,

Having read your reply, I would say that we have reached a fundamental difference of opinion. I am not comfortable with the taking of another human life for any reason, whereas it seems that you are very much so. Further, I believe that there's more to be gained from allowing these people to live (particularly the children, who may not be beyond rehabilitation) whereas you do not. I see no need to reply in detail, as doing so would ultimately just result in circular arguments.

My opinion has been presented as clearly as I can manage. I have nothing further to add.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

Kahn

I respect your position in this topic and your viewpoints are noted and worthy of serious consideration. I am most grateful that you have chosen not to disrespect my views as well, that would have just been rude and I feel you have been anything but. Hopefully, nothing I have said here has insulted your feelings or given you cause to view me offensive or rude.

A passing thought occurred to me, and perhaps this may be where my ability to execute more easily than you stems from. What if the victim in this situation was someone you know .. or worse, someone you love .. would that have any impact on your current thought process in determining the punishment for said crime?

Perhaps this is an unfair question to ask, as you can't possibly know the answer to it unless you are faced with that specific situation. It is however, part of the thought process I experience when coming to the conclusions I have thus far. I view all human life sacred and wonderful, and yet I can condemn the life of a convicted killer regardless of this belief. Confusing, isn't it?

At the very least, this conversation / debate has been an interesting way to spend my day and I thank you for that.

__________________
Attention everyone: We have another potential asshole in the area !

You don't have bad luck, the reason bad things happen to you is because you're a dumbass !!

Dinner $50
Drinks $30
Motel $40

Finding out she swallows -
PRICELESS!!!

m0rpheus

As someone who feels the same as Martian, although I can't truly say what my response would be because I have never lost anyone close to me through anything but natural causes, here is my 2 cents.

Would I want the individual responsible to be punished? Yes of course. Would I wish them nothing but misery for the rest of their natural life? Again yes I would. Would I wish them to be executed for their crimes? No, I refuse to wish that anyone be murdered. Even by the state.

__________________
"it never got weird enough for me." - Hunter S. Thompson

Kahn

Maybe I just eat too much red meat or watch too much violence on TV, and perhaps I'm no better than the "animal" I say should be put to death for such a violent crime .. who am I to say?

What I do know for a certainty is that people capable of this type of act against their fellow man cannot be changed. They may be altered in some sense of the word, and may even be coerced into convincing others that they'll never do it again, but someone capable of such brutality cannot be reprogrammed to never do it again .... well .... not without something like a lobotomy.

__________________
Attention everyone: We have another potential asshole in the area !

You don't have bad luck, the reason bad things happen to you is because you're a dumbass !!

Dinner $50
Drinks $30
Motel $40

Finding out she swallows -
PRICELESS!!!

Speed_Gibson

I am admittedly biased on this point as my wife is nearly 25 weeks pregnant right now, but personally I strongly disagree with that sentiment - especially after seeing a squirming stubborn child refuse to show what sex it is during an ultrasound. Always have but that is definitely a topic for another thread.

on the subject of the this thread, I read the first few paragraphs a few days back and could not continue. I have no kind thoughts or feelings for these people .
One of my thoughts about the whole topic was that many more disturbing things are public (and how quickly the news breaks) these days with the 24/7 'instant news' culture we live in. These kind of events have always happened, and there are far too many of these vile f**ktards out there that will do it again.
edit: and I am jaded for the most part, and find any of the 'faces of death' interesting videos to watch.

__________________
Started talking to yourself I see.
Yes, it's the only way I can be certain of an intelligent conversation.

Black Adder

LoganSnake

Reading comments in this and other similar threads have gotten me thinking. More than half the people here are either upset by, disturbed by or cannot continue reading these kinds of articles. I, on the other hand, read it without any sort of emotion short of an occasion "damn". Now, is that me being desensitized by pop culture and movies or is it just the way I perceive things? Same with the puppy video. No strong reaction one way or another aside from an audible comment of "poor animal" which did not carry any emotional follow-up on my part.

Hmmm, just typing out loud.

Carry on.

__________________
Maturity is knowing you were an idiot in the past. Wisdom is knowing that you'll be an idiot in the future. Common sense is knowing that you should try not to be an idiot now. - J. Jacques

QuasiMondo

I think it just means that you're not in denial about our capability to do something like what they've done. Not to say you would do it yourself, just that you are capable of doing it.

Of course, some folks may deny it, but then looking at the type of punishments half you would deal out to them if you had your way makes me think otherwise.

__________________
Cameron originally envisioned the Terminator as a small, unremarkable man, giving it the ability to blend in more easily. As a result, his first choice for the part was Lance Henriksen. O. J. Simpson was on the shortlist but Cameron did not think that such a nice guy could be a ruthless killer.

-From the Collector's Edition DVD of The Terminator

LoganSnake

I guess that's a good point and rings true in the way I see this world.

__________________
Maturity is knowing you were an idiot in the past. Wisdom is knowing that you'll be an idiot in the future. Common sense is knowing that you should try not to be an idiot now. - J. Jacques

Speed_Gibson

This was one of the first stories (if not the first) that I can recall where I did not finish reading it. Perhaps it has more of a personal sentiment for me because I have worked with the developmentally delayed for the past five or six years, and the fact that my wife is pregnant with yet another blessing.

I personally find it interesting to read about the various creative methods of torture used in the Russian Gulag, by Vlad the Impaler, Nero, and other places/people historically (and have used some that information as a base for the darker areas of my ongoing sci-fi writing), but this is in an entirely different vein for me.
yet another sad example of the total depravity of man and just how base any of our behaviour can be.

__________________
Started talking to yourself I see.
Yes, it's the only way I can be certain of an intelligent conversation.

Black Adder