Halx

America; the place where you can think and say whatever you want, but not act on it.

Personally, I'd try to talk with them and learn more about them. If they came into my shop, I'd consider it part of the "background check." Racists are people, too.

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ShaniFaye

They could just post a "I hate < insert what you hate > challenge on youtube, obviously far more people would see it

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Supple Cow

No, I can easily picture that freedom. It's the one where all the former Nazis get a little more enlightened and choose a less hateful philosophy.

Nice way to shift the perspective of the thread... but I still think it's a valid thing to say I hate somebody for something they CHOOSE to do or think and this separates me from people who hate others for things they have absolutely no control over. You could say that nazis are just too weak as individuals to get over the hatred that's been fed to them, but I think that that kind of change is still possible. Certainly you can see how 'a nazi should try harder not to hate' and 'a black person should try harder not to be black' are not comparable ideas.

I think WK's story is neat and all, but it would be naive to say that that attitude would have the same potentially world-changing effect as, say, a general paradigm change where it's no longer okay among any circle to hate on people for things that are unalterably part of their identity. Here's my general rule of thumb: (1) Is an attitude universally useable, and (2) would universal use probably lead to positive change? The attitude demonstrated in WK's story already fails at the first part of the question, though it may have some superficial success at the second half. Most skinheads certainly wouldn't play football with me.

BUT, that's not to say that it isn't a perfectly desirable attitude to have compared to one where he just throws down with anybody who disagrees with him and it escalates to fisticuffs all willy nilly.

pig

I think it's important to note the difference between hating another group, and expressing a lack of approval of their message. here's the thing: i don't really agree with the whole nazi viewpoint. sure, i wear my hair pretty short, but that's about as far as i can get on board with their message. so i feel pretty ok with expressing that to them; to wit, basically: fuck them. i don't really feel an overwhelming desire to have a little time out with them, so i can delve into their minds and figure out how they tick. i don't care how they tick. fuck them. that doesn't mean i'm going to chase them with big sticks or set them on fire: this is america for fuck's sake. if you can't say stupid shit here, where can you say it? i mean, shit - you're reading this post. but if they get to parade around in their little combat boot / fatigue / swastika get up, i also get to tell them to fuck the fuck right off. why in the world would i want to treat them as though they were some sort of relatively benign group who was just advocating for the increased use of hair nets or something?

they're not. they're a bunch of racist fuckers who jack off talking about gassing jews and lynching black people. that's not some acceptable shit that i'll just chalk up to a difference of opinion.

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Carno

My point was that my original post was just a joke. Nothing for anyone to get their panties in a bunch about.

Fire

Well Said sir pigglet- basicly how I feel


as to the store we will be staying open- I will be damned if a bunch of Gaddamned Nazi's are gonna cause me not to be open for the day- My concern comes from the fact that these peoiple do not just spout hate- they advocate violence, and have shown willingness to follow through- A bunch of my friends will be at the shop, and we plan to while away the day playing cards and hanging out- granted, we will have a few firearms and assorted weapons on hand, but then what is a gathering of friends without some firepower.. Most likely not a damn thing will happen, but we have prepared for contingencies- sadly, the local NAACP chapter plans to "confront" the nazi's- which is what the bastards want..........I will let you all know what else develops.........

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Val_1

I don't really know why these groups bother to march, except perhaps to drive home the fact that they do indeed have the right to. But, as far as I can tell, people love to hate these groups (and with pretty good cause) and show up to these marches simply to jeer them.
I can't picture this type of publicity getting them any new members or making them any more favorable in the public eye. Seems like hate groups like these flourish more in the dark little corners.

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Elphaba

It happens every time and it only gives them the media attention they hope for.

Good on you, Fire. This nonsense shouldn't alter how you run your business.

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Halx

You cant learn anything about someone if you shun them. Racists are people, too.

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Elphaba

Back arrow.

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Menoman

Racists aren't protected under the constitution though, it says so right..... ummm.. here... no..... uhh here.... errrmmmm I'll get back to you on this.

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Bill O'Rights

I suppose that it's too late to implore them not to come? If they do go, with the full on intent of "confronting" the Nazi's, then they're reducing themselves to the role of "pawn", in the Nazi's little game.

Wouldn't it just be the funniest of shit if absolutely no one...not a single solitary person...showed up. No XYZ group staging a counter protest. No member of the media. No college kids trying to showcase their manliness and moral superiority by taunting the Nazi's. What if the day were allowed to proceed just as any other Saturday in Columbia, MO? Wouldn't that be great? Thinking about it...to do anything else, just demonstrates that we actually care what they have to say.

Oh...and Fire? Good on you for proceeding with your day. Go ahead and open up shop. Do not let them make a difference. Just...keep an extra eye out...ok?

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pig

Hal,

You're probably right about that, at least in terms of gaining certain types of knowledge. But that presupposes a desire to learn something about racists / Nazis. I really feel like I pretty much know everything about them I care to. At this point, I'd prefer to deal with them like a bad kid. Put their asses in time out until until they change their behavior. They're just not worth my time. As I said earlier: Fuck them. Fuck them right in the ear.

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flstf

I think a lot of the counter-demonstrators feel the same way and sometimes use it as an excuse to loot the local stores. I think the looters deserve our disgust more than the Nazis.

Supple Cow

Sure they deserve disgust, but I'm not sure anyone group deserves it more than the other.

pig

flstf, well, i certainly hope they feel that way...after all, that's the right way to feel seriously, i don't advocate looting by anti-demonstration protestors at all, in any way shape or form. but that's a separate issue, as i don't condone looting, breaking and entering, non-creative vandalism (have to admit i've seen some pretty sweet graffiti) and so forth, regardless of the emotional impetus to do so.

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MSD

Half of Youtube will agree with them. Nobody would take it seriously, anyway. They want people to overreact so they get the national media attention, anyway.

That's completely backwards. These nazis aren't violent, therefore they have the same right to demonstrate that everyone else does. Our grandfathers fought to protect our freedom from a fascist government who did not recognize this right.

You can't expect someone whose core philosophy is irrational to act rationally.

Dilbert1234567

good luck fire.

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EaseUp

The philosophies expressed here become awkward and strained when "Freaknik" (whose heyday was in the 1990s in Atlanta) is substituted for "Nazi."

Fire

Well- Its over- the nazi's came- and there were some fights, and "disturbances" but no riots, and the bastards left after about 30 minutes- They discovered that the reception was not welcoming, at all, and that the people there werent dumb enough to fight the cops, or each other, but were very willing to beat on some nazi's- BTW to everyone above, it should be noted that these guys were a concern because they do not advocate nonviolent protests- they openly state that they want to confront and "battle" with anyone that opposes them- despite the retoric, they backed down and went home when they saw that the streets were lined with anti- nazi's and police- some of the nazi's got a bit roughed up and almost all of their banners and signs were torn from their hands and ripped up along the march route- the cops had too much to do to stop the protesters that were attacking inanimate objects- basicly everyone from the gay pride coalition to the outlaws biker gang was there to "welcome " hitlers boys, and they were universally pissed at them for comming around-

For those who are interested in such things, heres a play by play of what happened from my POV

10am- arrived at store with bag full of guns- positioned said in pre-determined places (away from customers but accessable to myself and my backup) and strap a pistol tp my hip
10:15 - First of special detail security team arrives- I often do part time work for a local high risk security firm, and allow them to use my shop as a staging area for events downtown, Its convienient for them as I have a very large backroom that is mostly empty at the moment, and I get the benefit of very noticable armed men standing around- the security guys were hired today by a local bar to, in the words of the manager of said bar, "keep the skinheads out" the bar is right along the nazi's parade route- Incidentally, Team member one, whom we will call " teacup" is a certified police instructor, firearms trainer, and martial arts instructor....Teacup leaves me a Mossberg 590 and a pistol "just in case" (If things go terribly wrong my store is also the fallback location)

10:20 the first skinheads of the day arrive at my door- They attempt to enter despite the fact that the door is locked, the signs (there are two) say closed, and the lights are out- after pushing inefectually at the door they notice the 10" by 20" bright yellow sign on the door directly in front of them that says "NO HATE IN OUR TOWN" in large black letters- they talk angerly amongst themselves and wander off toward the protest.......

10:30 am The second team member, whom we will call Tac, arrives. Tac is a deputy sherif from a neighboring county, which down there is a part time thing, so he also works as a full time paramedic- this combo made him sought after for his counties meth lab busting squad, which he enjoys being on as it is "fun" his skills are also nice to have in the security biz... tac leaves another, amazingly similar to the first one mossberg 590, a .308 assault rifle, and two kevlar vests, with trauma plates, along with a bag completely full of ammo and a med kit ( did I mention that these guys do not fuck around)

10:35- Tac and teacup suit up- this involves kevlar, knives, guns, tazers, pepper spray, and about 25 minutes time

11:00- I open the store and K-9, the third team member arrives suited up, with his german shepherd (hence the name) k-9 will be in the companies SUV, and as he owns the firm will liason with the LEO on the scene. At this point, downtown is packed, and does not look at all like the "ghost town " that civic leaders wanted.... potentially, we all agree, that could be bad.

11:30- Security team leaves for the bar- they promise to call me with updates and info especially if things get nasty

11:55- My friend the cop arrives- we will call him boots- he drops his riot gear in the back alongside the arsenal...along with boots came another friend of mine, a very large, very nordic man we will call the Dane- I loan the dane a gun and holster-

12:00 boots sets his police radio on the counter and turns it on- there are police, sherrif's deputies, highway patroll, and cops from severall surrounding counties here to provide "an overwhelming police pressence" about this time teacup calls to state that downtown is full of angry people, and that a few of them have obviously been drinking....

12:15 another of my backup crew arrives, we will call him the turk- he has the least training of us all, and no experience with this kind of thing- we do not give him a gun. He is however, competent with a hatchet and club, so I give him a hatchet - he brought his own club, a 15 pound monstrosity of welded steel, sort of like a flanged mace.......



1:00 radio says the nazis are here, and are in the parking garage that the march is supposed to start at- the first arrest is reported- of someone that was threatening the nazi's... a highway patroll helicopter circles downtown, while we listen to the snipers on the rooftops reporting in on the radio....

1:05 the nazi's start- they are almost immediatly confronted by protesters, and quite a few are roughed up- more arrests happen, and one police officer is assaulted, apparently by a drunk

1:20 by this point the nazi's are in real danger of being mobbed- sherrifs deputies have to march with them to hold back the crowd- Missouri clearly does not like their kind around here- teacup calls to say that its getting rough where they are, a few blocks away- but where i am it is buisiness as usual, and lots of normal people come in to buy stuff- many compliment me on my NO HATE sign- not one reacts negatively to the fact that several people are wearing guns, one seems to notice mine, pauses, says "oh yeah, the nazis" and pays for his items.... Thankfully, no trouble at the store, no skinheads at all since the early morning ones.....

1:30 Nazis give up on trying to march past the journalism school, due to severe resistance, and the fact that the cops clearly do not want to protect them- despite this the cops pepper spray some protesters, and, accidentally, a nearby reporter (later it appears that everyone sprayed has, amazingly, no hard feelings toward the cops- even the reporter is ok with it) at this time, all

1:36 nazi's return to parking garage and begin to leave- a police officer comes over the radio with the statement that the out of town group is leaving, but that there are still some "free range nazi's " left downtown continues to be rowdy near the march site, but at my store it is just like any other pleasant spring day.......

2:00 its over, except for the after parties....buisiness is brisk, and people are polite and for the most part happy

from this point my day is like any other untill about closing (at 5:00)
at that point the security team returns, gathers their gear, and fills me in on their day- Teacup had to throw a skinhead over a railing, but beyond some shoving, that was it for them- they did put on their riot gear during the worst of it, on the advice of a Highway patrollman-

Overall, I have mixed feelings- It could have been worse because of it, but some part of me is happy with the nazi's getting so harrassed- and the fact that the harrassers stuck to going against the nazi's and not the cops or each other...and my store was hurt not a bit by it, I did not suffer financially, and no one threw anything through my window because of the NO HATE sign, a concern that many had- I am glad I took a stand and stayed open, in fact many of my patrons were supportive of that- But I hate to see the skinheads get any publicity, and they did get a lot........

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filtherton

That's a heartwarming image, Fire. It's nice to know that apathy hasn't completely enveloped everyone yet.

The_Dunedan

Rock. Sounds like you and your crew handled things perfectly and, thankfully, none of the hardware was needed. In such a circumstance, I imagine that many of your customers wer probably quite glad to see the firepower in evidence.

Ourcrazymodern?

I think I might throw up.
Glad to "hear" you went to work, Fire!

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Menoman

So the most violent people weren't even the "nazi's".

Condoning violence, against people who appear to stand for violence.

I'll never figure some ideals out I think.



Thinking back, don't you think there was a better way for your town to respond to this incident?

Not you personally, but the entire idea seems a bit hypocritical to me, basically they were violently forced to leave, because the town is disgusted by their violent beliefs.

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Fire

Even ghandi said that nonviolence only works to a point- and some things should be fought with every drop of blood we have..........

Certain things should be aberant and abhored by any society- Note that I welcome anyone having their own beliefs- as long as their beliefs do not include harming someone else based on arbitrary traits or because of purely selfish motives- In a nutshell, and for example, it is wrong to hate someone for their skin color, or religion, or sexual preference, or political party and a whole lot of other things- UNTILL they choose to advocate hurting others as part of their doctrin - For example, hating muslims is wrong, but hating muslims that use their religion as an excuse to blow up a synagog is OK- Hating n.a.m.b.l.a. members seems OK, because they advocate child rape.... and the nazi party advocates murder........so I tend to feel justified hating them..... If the nazi's wanted to hold their rallies on private land, OK fine with me- but when they go to other towns (and ALL of the marchers were from out of state) and attempt to instigate violence and property destruction because our town is too "liberal" for their taste, then i expect that they deserve what they got, and much more.
I agree that we should be wary of a slippery slope, and where I draw the line on white supremecists is essentially at the point that they go from being in favor of their heritage, and of supporting their own culture, to the point of advocating the violent extermination of anyone not white- which this group does. The question of who's opinions are valid has always been with us, and I guess that where I personally feel the line should be is if you advocate killing me and my friends, then it means that I will tend to respond in kind (and according to the NSM website, as I have american indian blood, and my wife has ancestors waaay back there that were jewish, we are both slated for "forceble deportation" or death if we refuse )

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