abaya

(Not sure which forum this belongs in, so feel free to move it elsewhere, Mods.)

Last year I started a thread titled, "Do gays feel welcome here?" in an attempt to gauge whether or not that segment of the population felt that the TFP was as welcoming and tolerant a place as we all tout it to be. Or rather, whether the TFP was actually more representative of a certain segment of the population, and not *as* welcoming to those outside of it.

I am starting this thread with a similar curiousity: whether or not Christians feel comfortable here... evangelical (Protestant) Christians in particular. This is inspired by recent exchanges with TFP member Pastor Tim. In the Danish Cartoon forum, he posted as part of a reply to me:

Personally, I try not to attack anyone personally on TFP (and I think the mods would be all over me if I did ), though sometimes I know I fail in distinguishing the person from the ideology. But I think that for the most part, this place IS an open forum, and that most points of view are given a fair chance for intelligent, demanding discussion. That is the value of TFP for me. I think the TFP certainly has its dark sides, just like any other community of humans... but to me, the intelligence, experience, empathy, and candor of most members outweighs any degree of intolerance/rudeness that gets tossed around here at times.

However, it has been a while since I was an evangelical Christian, and many of my related sensitivities (of the sort Pastor Tim mentions) have long since worn off. I suppose my sensitivities now run in the other direction, to question anything that comes across as overtly religious language and to get to know the real person behind those statements. This holds true for people of any background, including Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, atheist, what-have-you. I want to know who you ARE, not what you believe. Or at least, to know what conditions formed your ideologies (which we all have, religious or otherwise).

So, that's where I'm coming from. I am certainly not anti-Christian, seeing as I still very much respect the lifestyle choices of the evangelical friends that I spent most of my formative years with. I don't agree with everything they do, but I do not hold their beliefs and practices against them; they do what they believe is right, and I can't say I am doing any better than that.

But is the TFP anti-Judeo-Christian? I would like to hear from other members on this, as well as Pastor Tim, of course. (We could even address the question of whether Muslims feel welcome here, or Buddhists, or anyone else... but let's start with Christians for now.)

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

martinguerre

well, i'll say this...

i feel less at home on account of orientation than i do because of religious affiliation.

the anti-christian rhetoric has been somewhat heated at times, but nobody's made the comparision between Christianity and fucking a horse...where as that was the analogy to queer idenity just a week or so ago.

i don't know if that answers your question, but that's what i see of it.

__________________
For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life.

-John 3:16

ziadel

as a republican I can deinfately sense some hostility (theres seems to be a bit of a lefward lean on here), and considering that a lot of conservative ideals are christian ones, I'd say it's a less than stellar welcome.

But I don't believe in that stuff, so I don't really know.

__________________
Ron Paul '08
Vote for Freedom
Go ahead and google Dr. Ron Paul. You'll like what you read.

Mojo_PeiPei

I'm far from Evangelical, born and raised as a roman catholic, went to catholic grade school and high school, but I like to think for myself and I have some issues with Dogma. That being said, I personally feel many here thumb their nose at Christians: Being a person that frequents the politics forums, many contentious issues are brought up due to the parlence of our times; it is stiffling and often times angering the level of ignorance that I see. Many people are serious misinformed or flat out, again the word ignorant, of the christian faith. Whether it is on the political issues past and present, read Pope Pius or the oft referred to but hysterical false statements surrounding the near millenia past crusades, or even current sentiments.

Way I see is, by and large this is a forum of something that would probably considered "progressive" thought; I constantly feel judged, and often insulted by comments levied and sentiments held (which admittedly would be tough to read over a medium of the internet, but I'm not some daft soak, its not tough to read where people are coming from nor where they are going).

In a blatant immediate sense no I do not feel unwelcomed, but as a Christian here I do often feel insulted. Then again I'm not evangelical, nor am I fiery defender of my mothers faith, I like to find out things for myself, so I try not to take offense, but still I find myself constantly frustrated at posts made and sentiments held.

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To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

onodrim

I think in general that TFP is a very open and accepting place to views on every topic on every end of the spectrum. But as you said, nothing is perfect. Are there some here who are open to discussions about/using/involving a Christian (specifically Judeo-Christian as you mentioned) worldview? Of course. Are there some who will have a strongly negative attitue towards it regardless of any good points being made, or simply ignore it? Of course. Like any large community of diverse people there are going to be diverse opinions, and some more strong than others.

There is the fact that this is a board that is for adults only and has adult content. Now this isn't the sole focus of the board, but it is present. It could be a factor that might keep those with more conservative worldviews away, but I don't believe it's forced down anyone throats that in order to be a member here one must love porn and obsess over sex. For the most part it is restricted to certain forums which one could easily choose to ignore if they didn't want to take part in it. So I think it's very possible to still be active on the forum without participating in the more "adult" features.

So, yes, there are obstecles such as adult themes and potential negativity from other members that a Christian who holds a more conservative Judeo-Christian worldview might have to overcome. But I think if they were willing to get past these things, they could have a very rewarding and comfortable membership here.

As for myself, I grew up in an *incredibly* conservative Protestant family. I'm currently a Religious Studies minor and I'm always seeking to learn more about spirituality and to futher my personal gorwth in that area. As such I am now considerably more liberal than anyone in my family, but I still consider myself highly spiritual/religious depending on how you define it. There are discussions here which challenge you to really look at what you believe and why and I think those discussions would be equally meaningful to someone who is on the conservative end of religious thought.

__________________
"The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there’s little good evidence. Far better it seems to me, in our vulnerability, is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides"
-Carl Sagan

snowy

As a Christian, I have at times felt dismissed because of my beliefs--but that is equally true of the world beyond TFP. I've never felt judged, though. Personally, I believe that to be spiritual is to constantly struggle to define and explain one's self. The struggle, in the end, is worth it, even in the face of detractors and critics.

Most of the people I respect around here have a "live and let live" approach to faith; it is something we share. Those who would dismiss me are not worthy of my concern, and therefore I continue to feel welcome here.

__________________
If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

Sage

Speaking from the point of view of someone who was once very, very much a Southern Baptist...

I feel like, as has been stated, that if there was anyone on TFP that was very Christian, they would soon find that they are not in like-minded company. As, in my upbringing, I was taught that Christians were to associate and seek out others who shared the same faith in the understanding that associating with those of like mind would stregnthen the faith of everyone, I doubt that they'd be around long.

I admit, when I read Pastor Tim's first post I did a little eye-rolling. In my expierence, I have encountered about five outspoken Christians in my lifetime that didn't make me want to respond to their lifestyle with a quick right hook. However, Pastor Tim is the kind of person I wish every Christian could be- very calm, collected, and secure in his spirituality, and willing to meet other people's viewpoints with an open mind. He has earned my respect, and I gladly welcome him and his point of view to this community.

However, most Christians (including my own mother) are *very* outspoken and blindly follow their own ideas about the tenants of their faith. This leads to some heated, feverish, soapbox-style supporting of their point of view to the exclusion of everyone else. As I believe that the TFP supports open mindedness, this kind of mentality would not be welcomed on the boards. However, if this kind of close-mindedness was shown by any member, regardless of sex/sexual preference/religion/etc, it would not be tolerated. Therefore, I think TFP is welcoming of EVERYONE, provided they show themselves to be willing to listen to what others have to say and treat the other members of the board with respect.

I would like to see more people with the conviction and solidarity in their own spirituality like Pastor Tim. Hearning the opnions and viewpoints of a myriad of people makes me a better person. I will not brush off a Christian's opnion simply because it is a doctrine to which I no longer hold- I will, however, find that person's arguments at fault if they fail to respect my own point of view at the same time.

Keep it up, Pastor Tim... you'll never know how much I wish my mother was like you....

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stevo

TFP is generally a welcoming place, but often all christians are lumped in with the loud-mouth evangelicals. I suppose its not too different then how muslims are often lumped together with their fanatics, though. I'm not really bothered.

__________________
"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser

asaris

I've generally felt welcome, personally, but I've seen some pretty offensive things from time to time over in the Philosophy forum (and I'm pretty thick-skinned). Most people here are understanding of people with different worldviews, even Christians, but some people obviously have a chip on their shoulder regarding religion.

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"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

Poppinjay

I've appreciated Pastor Tim's participation greatly. I wish he would post more. I'm a Christian, albeit not evangelical. Inevitably, whenever a thread is started about Christian philosophies, some genius will drop intothe middle of it to denounce all of the fools for believing in a sky God. It's always a disappointment when it's a poster who I usually agree with on other issues. I don't knock your books out of your hands after your junior college class in philosophy.

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I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

kutulu

I don't understand why Christians are getting away with playing victims these days. They have at least a 75% majority in the country and control all the major parts of government and private indusrty. How are Christians being victimized?

Aladdin Sane

Well of course this place is (generally) hostile and disrespectful to Christians. It's a no-brainer. Even in this thread there are statements that are based on stereotyping and "christophobia," if you will. Shall I cry and become a whinning victim over it? NO WAY. I'm a big boy who likes to play big boy games. Jesus teaches me this: I should and will be challenged. Why shouldn't I be stereotyped and dismissed? I say bring it on. Do I have some special rights not to be insulted or offended? Well of course not. Jesus teaches me that adversity brings strength.

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Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

Rodney

I call myself an agnostic Christian. I don't know that the Bible stories are true; I don't know much that it matters. It's the teachings and examples that I follow, more of the New Testament than the Old.

Religious worship and practice puts my mind and soul in a place where it's good for it to be. And whether it's put there by the Holy Spirit or simply by the very nature of people gathering together to worship and celebrate sand reinforce the Good, I don't much care. I do belong to a fairly liberal church, one that believes in our responsibility to make the world a better place here and now, rather than waiting for Jesus to come back and take care of it all for us. I believe that we were intended through Christianity to try to be more like Jesus, not simply to come to him with all our troubles. In doing so, we make the world a better place. I do not believe that the world is by nature evil and thus unredeemable by humans alone; that's a cop-out. Even if it were true, we should try. Otherwise, what are we here for?

Given all that, I feel fairly well at home on the TFP. Since I hold to principles rather than dogma, criticisms of Christianity don't insult me. Christianity _should_ be criticized. It needs all the help it can get, and sitting back and taking somebody else's interpretation of Christianity as gospel _is not help._ In my opinion, Christians should question and explore, just as just about everyone here does. There are of course branches of Christianity that don't encourage that kind of thinking.

In that sense, I'm not what everybody thinks of these days as a Christian; but there are a great many like me around. We just don't have the funding :-), or the attention of the media. Moreover, a lot of people who think like us tend to have an aversion to Christianity, I suppose through bad experiences in their youth. Perhaps they were told to "shut up and believe" once too often, or saw friends and family member profess one thing at church but do something wildly different at home. These are problems with religions the world over.

I personally have had some discussions and disagreements with Pastor Tim. Consider them family arguments -- perhaps more passionate than those between strangers. I hope he doesn't take offense, and understands that I honor his Christianity. And I certainly hope that he honors mine. If not: we can discuss it! :-)

Mojo_PeiPei

It's "in" to put down christians these days. After all we are all loud mouthed evangelical homophobes. And your majority comment has zero bearing on the situation as the vast majority of christians are your average joes/janes trying to live their lives, yet they get knocked by an insanely loud and rabid minority.

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To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

feelgood

Um, sorry but TFP is not all United States, there's Canada, UK, etc etc where Christian are not even a majority.

I would feel that Christians are very welcoming here compariable to other religious groups of the world such as Muslims. Personally, I'm not so welcoming of Muslims because of their inability to tolerance our expression of idea and freedom as much as Catholics and Christians can tolerate it.

In my leadership development lecture today, we have a muslim guy arguing every word of the definition of morality, ethics and integrity on the basis of what his beliefs and religion demands of him. That is a very ignorance arguement, valid but stupid in this part of the world.

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Looking out the window, that's an act of war. Staring at my shoes, that's an act of war. Committing an act of war? Oh you better believe that's an act of war

Ustwo

Some people are just oversensative period, and they will whine about it and get defensive. If you are in a minority opinion here you need to develope a thick skin or you will feel unwelcome.

If you are a Christian and use that as a basis for your debates you better be willing to accept that there are those of us here who will not accept 'gods word' as logical debate.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

irateplatypus

much of the discussion on TFP is antithetical to the Christian worldview... but such words rarely come across as antagonistic. we christians have to compete in the world of ideas just like everyone else. opposing ideas do not bother me when expressed for their own sake.

the bulk of distinctly anti-christian comments come from ignorance. many people assume that by virtue of living in the western hemisphere they know what christianity is all about. passing a church on your way to work, watching 5 minutes of the 700 Club while channel surfing, or memories of childhood sunday-school do not make you an expert on christianity as a faith. if that is your extent of personal contact with christianity... you're probably not qualified to engage in serious discussion about the faith as Christians experience it. discussions of Christianity are welcomed by this poster, i just wish each TFP member would re-examine their acquaintance with the subject.

to answer your question directly: i do feel welcome here. TFP is the only online community that i've stuck with for more than a few months. you guys are great.

__________________
If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

Astrocloud

I am a christian. I think that a lot of christians walk around with a chip on their shoulders and are easily offended. I think it's a tactic to gain ground in some way. After all you can't point out their shortcomings -if you can't offend them.

Jinn

Really? Wow.. I might have to move to Canada.

All joking aside, I don't see why Christianity, or any other religion, would feel unwelcome here. However, TFP's ideal is "The Evolution of Humanity, Sexuality, and Philosophy." With that in mind, many conservative and/or religious ideals are about the preservation or stagnation of one belief about humanity, not the evolution/integration of those beliefs into modern day. When someone mentions that they Love Christ or that they're Christian, I don't look at them any differently than someone who says cows are holy and should not be consecrated. It is simply a belief and it likely has no relevance to the conversation at hand, other than knowing the person better.

In the context of the "real world," preservation and stagnation of society are good things -- they keep rules and laws in order. So, in "real life," religious and conservative people will always enjoy a majority. However, I think if any forum or discussion where ideals are abstracted from reality, liberalism will reign, while conservatism and religious rulesets will be less dominant. In abstracted situations, people feel more comfortable discussing the "what-ifs" and perhaps evaluating and re-evaluating their success strategies in life. When they return to the "real-world," the necessity for keeping things as they are for successful functioning (as it was) is necessary.

In short, this does not mean that Christians shouldn't feel welcome.. such is just the nature of the beast; free discussion promotes liberal (or radical) thought, whereas "work" promotes conservative thought. No one likes someone questioning how things have been done for 20 years WHILE it's happening, as that degrades the quality of the product of the labour. In this sense, conservatism rules. However, in the "free time," "discussion time" or "lunch break," more discussion about how things are done and if they're valid (liberal thought) begins to prevail instead. It's simply a matter of context, and I don't think its an phenomenon exclusive to TFP.

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"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

Rekna

I don't think TFP is any different then anywhere else in this respect. Many non-Christians look down on Christians because of a vocal minority. It is unfortunate but it is expected. Jesus even said we should expect that. It is unfortunate that a minority of people can tarnish the image of the whole group. What many non-Christians fail to reliaze is the difference between the vocal minority and the mainstream Christians. It is also interesting how much people push against Christianity. I'm wondering if I notice this just because I live in a country where Christianity is the majority. Does anyone on this forum have experience with other countries and Islam, Buddism, or Hinduism? In countries that are predominatly those religions do the local populations attack those religions for their beliefs?

Anyway, i'm pretty much used to getting ridiculed for my beliefs despite the fact that I never try to impose them on others. What I don't understand is why athiests care what I believe as long as I don't try to push my beliefs on them? What reasons do they have for trying to prove Christians wrong?

The only thing that ever bothers me is when someone assumes i'm an idiot who has been brain washed because I believe in Jesus and the bible. I have done lots of research into it, I have a very scientific mind, and I have come to the conclusion that 1) Jesus existed, 2) The new testiment is a very accurate historical document (one of the most accurate histories books we have from those time periods), and 3) Jesus is who he claimed to be.

For anyone who is interested in the historical accuracy of the new testement you should try reading "Case for Christ" the author is an award winning journalist who interviews many scholors and compares the new testament to other historical documents and methodically goes through what evidence we have.

abaya

Rodney's post bears repeating, at least to better express my own thoughts. We have a lot in common!

To be clear (perhaps I was not, in my OP), I could probably be classified, if need be, as an agnostic-Christian-Buddhist, with some transcendentalist (or is that Unitarian these days?) flavorings. I know that to the average evangelical, this combination is anathema; if one does not forswear to belong only to Christ and none other, than one cannot be called a Christian. I respect that distinction, so maybe I am not a Christian at all--that is okay with me. I don't much need labels of that sort, anymore.

Let me also clarify: I spent my formative years deeply embedded in the evangelical mainstream. My BA is from an evangelical university, where I engaged myself very much with the values of the community and the examination of scripture and creed. As it stands, while I have chosen to depart from a strict adherance to those beliefs and that community, I respect those who continue to choose that lifestyle. And I want to engage those members of TFP who choose that lifestyle, just as I hope to engage any member of TFP who have chosen other lifestyles. Personally, I find the TFP community to be an almost-adequate replacement for the community I thrived in as an evangelical... this place is amazing.

I like what Rodney said about these being "family arguments," however... because I once considered myself at home in Christianity, and made it my business to know that house inside and out. I am no stranger to it, which perhaps makes my comments seem more antagonistic than others. But it is not out of hostility that I make these comments; it is out of a desire to truly challenge others from the perspective of one who has "been there," and been there deeply. And I am certainly open to being challenged in return, though honestly, I am not sure if there is anything new under the sun in these discussions... but I am open to it, if so.

Maybe this was a bit abstract, but I thought I should clarify my own position.

And thank you for all your responses, so far. I am learning a lot about individual members here.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

guthmund

I completely agree. Some people like to be offended. Some people live for it. Some people love to play the 'oh, poor me' card. Now I'm not saying all religious folks are like that, but religion just seems to draw an inordinate amount of people like this to the flock.

I'm also not saying there isn't an anti-Christian vibe here sometimes. I think most of it is inadvertent and not a whole lot worse than the the anti- liberal/smoker/fat/whatever stuff that gets bantered about, but some of it...well, it's there. Now I think the mods do an excellent job of keeping the overtly offensive stuff of the boards, but you can't censor everything that might offend or the boards would look like some declassified 'Top Secret' report, but they get most of the outrageously ridiculous stuff.

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No signature. None. Seriously.

Destrox

I lean towards no religion or belief.
I find it inconceivable that a higher being could exist, such as "god".
And I find it foolish to blindly lead your life according to what some book says or how some pastor interprets it.

That being said, I have many family members who are deeply religious, many friends who are just as such. About half are Christian, the rest are other religions. A number of them are not American. This in essence is no different then on the TFP, the fact that I share so little views with them when it comes to spirituality and religion doesn’t mean we won’t get along. To shun a person away because of what they feel and think goes against everything this forum is meant to be about. People will always disagree with each other, and to expect perfect harmony is just foolish.

As long as both parties are able to keep their cool and act like adults there is no reason why any one person will feel unwelcome. Now, just for example, my aunt is a extremely Christian devoted women, to the point that she will get offended if you do not agree with her views. This community is so large, we are bound to have a number of those people, and they are going to speak their mind. Those are the very people who will stand out and you will remember them, and sadly they might influence the overall stereotype we all naturally apply to groups of people (The TFP in this case).

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You bore me.... next.

Aladdin Sane

Where did the absurd notion come from that somehow people have a right NOT to be offended? This is a totalitarian notion that is antithetical to western liberal democracy and to Christianity (to get back on topic). This "freedom from offense" fiction is a slippery slope that demands ever increasing restrictions on free speech and free thought. Christians have nothing to fear from ideological competition and debate. We should fear, however, those who use their twisted logic to find "new" rights for favored groups.

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Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

Toaster126

I think the TFP on the whole is a pretty accepting community compared to the world at large - religion or otherwise.

That doesn't mean I haven't seen hypocrisy and judgment from people who claim those things are wrong. Some cognitive dissonance, if you will. Heck, I think I've posted about two instances this week on that topic.

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"The question isn't who is going to let me, it's who is going to stop me." (Ayn Rand)
"The truth is that our finest moments are most likely to occur when we are feeling deeply uncomfortable, unhappy, or unfulfilled. For it is only in such moments, propelled by our discomfort, that we are likely to step out of our ruts and start searching for different ways or truer answers." (M. Scott Peck)

PastorTim

Thus far, this has been a very interesting, invigorating and thought-provoking thread. I will do so more reading and thinking here, but perhaps I won't post again. But Abaya was very kind to start it. Thank-you, and thanks to all for the thoughts. They all have a place.

Pastor Tim
John 3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease.

Poppinjay

So you would also be against literature? I live my life based on the books of Sinclair Lewis and select others. Am I a fool?

If you said you would be foolish to lead your life according to what some book says, I would agree with you. You should live your life by the means you see fit. The fact that you find it foolish essentially dismisses a philosophy and belief and its followers as fools.

The rest of your post describes very nicely how you co-exist with religious people and how you are tolerant even when they seem not to be. But the fact is, even when Christianity is mildly broached on TFP, somebody will join the thread to say what you said at the beginning of your post.

Example here

I ignore those posts and I don't really find them menacing or unwelcome. I just find it dis-heartening that somebody can post really interesting insights on say, cars or movies or music, but then blindly dismiss Christians as fools.

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I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

bigTex

As someone who is new around here I would have to say it has some Christian abhor to it.

The forum has the one of the most basic Christian principles, the loving of all. But, it seems that if I went into the sexuality page and gave some advice and used the Bible in my reply I would probably be kicked for flaming. (sex is good but it should be reserved for marrige) This goes for any posting I could make in any of the different subsections. My religion is a very large part of me, and it makes me who I am today.

But, I do find it ironic that many who are not religous assume that this is a friendly place toward Christians. It will truely be a welcoming place when I can come and make a thread about Jesus and who he is and why he came here without being attacked for "pushing my religion on everyone." I would love for that to happen one day, and as for me; (and I assume most of you) I would never attack someone of another faith for telling people about it. This seems to only reserved for Christians.

Here is a quote for Christians who seem to think that being hateful towards others because of sin is God pleasing.

We are all sinners; making noone better than another

frogza

As a christian do I feel welcome? Yes, I do. That said, I see my opinions and beliefs both belittled and supported based entirely on my faith. Upon examining it, I can see that if I were atheist I could say the same thing. I think that TFP is a pretty good cross section of world society. Of course there are parts missing due to language and governement barriers but overall I think that if a person couldn't take the disagreement here it's safe to say they couldn't take it anywhere else.

Glory's Sun

I think the TFP is friendly for ALL who come. It doesn't matter what religion, race, sex or orientation you are, there are sets of open arms to all who come. Now, that does not mean that everyone will always get along and sing kumbaya(sp?) and dance merrily around the campfire. People have different opinions and different views on EVERYTHING.- Bear with me I'm getting to my point sometime-

Ok, now to where I'm trying to go (hopefully). I have no problem with people believing in something different than me or having an issue with what I believe in. The only time this can pose a problem is when one side states their belief as a FACT that this becomes dangerous. Christians can give the advice they want to give but they must note and respect when someone disagrees with their belief. I don't think it's a personal attack if someone says they don't believe the same thing -it's merely an observation. The same would go for the non-christian crowd. They need to accept that Christian ideals are going to be said on this board as long as there are christian members.

bigTex, I highly doubt you'd get kicked for "flaming" by merely stating your opinon on a matter. You may push the envelope, however, if you decree that your opinon is fact and it becomes a personal issue. I believe you could also make a thread about who you believe christ is and what he's done for you or whatever, but you have to accept the differing views of others. I personally would find no fault in you if you were to start such a thread.. however it would have to be of a discussionary nature not simply a sermon. (note this is purely my opinion, other mods may have different views of this)

Ok I didn't get everything I wanted say in there but my mind is wandering all over the place today.

abaya

Tim: I was hoping this thread would indeed help Christians to feel more welcome posting, or at least to be able to express their feelings about any hostility that they might feel. I hoped to begin a dialogue between those of faith and those who do not share that faith, here on TFP. So I am puzzled by your response.

If you are comfortable, can you say more about why you might not post again? (I guess that would require posting again, though... so no pressure. If you are uncomfortable, that is okay; but I do think we would all benefit from hearing what you have to say, if that is any encouragement to you.)

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

roachboy

i would think that the only time anyone who identifies as christian would maybe feel alienated here would follow from a post or series of them that intertwine political and religious views in a way that to criticize the one is to criticize the other.

pastor tim's post to the danish cartoon thread was potentially one such moment--i wrote something that i deleted because i figured that the presentation of a political argument could only be construed as an attack on his religious committments--that because the views were tied directly to his position as preacher and there was no way to split the two apart. it seemed to me a situational thing, not systemic.

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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

oldtimer

Destrox has almost completely described me. Where as I used to classify myself as a Christian [and still do from time to time to not bother with the gasps and the quick session conversion into why I should believe], I am really tired of all religion in general. All it ever leads to is a ridiculous amount of discussion to discuss things that were many years before your time short of biting somebody's head off b/c they do not believe AND raging "holy" wars that to this day still go on b/c of it. Christians being offended? Please...

Moreover, I get very pissed from time to time w/ the world I live in. No doubt in recent years thanks to our good friend George Bush Jr. But more ironically I have kept all these "chrisitan", "catholic" vows w/o even as so much reading the bible's entire script. I've read a little but I can't read the whole thing. The dictation is so... preachy. And even more ironically, is that the same people who were raised with those vows more strictly are the same murderers, rapists, pedophiles [catholic priests], serial killers [b/c god told them to], having sex and conceiving a child out of wedlock, etc sinners.

Are we to count the truth as an insult? I know my facts. As I know my beliefs and my rules I have set for myself:

• Never hit or abuse a woman EVER; unless there is no absolute alternative such as a split-second decision before you are about to be shot, stabbed, or otherwise severely injured by the woman - That is the only scenario where I could - even then I'd try to find another way... For women are too sacred to me.
• Never use drugs [short of being specific - it's safe to assume I don't use anything even liquor - which I consider to be a drug *shrug* I don't need it to have a good time]
• Never buy a gun - I believe my fists are enough to beat man's ass short of my will not to be beaten
• Respect your parents - this includes never cursing them out which I've seen countless times in this day and age. You can raise your voice at them however if your trying to make a point.
• To respect all walks of life and not take this Earth for granted - Too tired to elaborate
• Too tired to go on. There's probably a lot more, but I'm not planning on starting a bible anytime soon.

Anyway, I had a pleasant dream where all religion was banished and there were no wars and no one believed anything except what they wanted to; still not causing any debate. No 700 Club, no holy scriptures, no religious books, no religious charity trying to take your 5 cents a day and do god knows what with it... The paintings still existed. It was nice... so nice I wish I could have that dream once a month.

To wrap up, no, christians are not being dogged or singled out. I've never heard anyone once say "Go back to your reality and watch 7th Heaven!". Atheists though are going to be picked apart, chewed up, and spit out by hardcore christians. Moreover I dare any devout christian [who truly goes by the book] to visit Off The Wayside or The Full Monty. WAIT!!! You're seriously going in there? Don't! This is my formal warning - do NOT. I don't think you'd be open minded to that at all. Why not? Well... remember, you said you were a devout christian?

Sidebar:
Anyway, poppinjay, that is why I didn't want to post in here at all. Not b/c I didn't want any discussion about it or couldn't bear with any disagreement. But b/c you just jumped on Destrox for his figure of speech. It really is nothing to be offended by [like you said yourself, you ignore it] short of someone using a curse word on you. Turn foolish, into a unimaginable way of thinking. To listen to a book or another man who bases his beliefs from the book, does not make any sense to me. However like I said and you said, life should be lived according to your own intrepretation. Everybody has their own opinions.

Short of a Tilted Religion w/ multi-subsectional groups for every religion, I see no resolution - even that has the potential for individual heatedness. How do you think I feel about Congress being majority Republican? I just take it with some salt and know whatever they do they will never turn me or dishearten me. What disheartens me, is life and society itself. It speaks volumes about the respect and following for religion. I am truly disgusted with this world. I know it can't be perfect - I just wish it was a WHOLE lot more civilized. And no man or book can EVER dictate that...

Religion will never unify more people than it separates... And that includes the basic principle of tolerance for other religions. B/c one religion ALWAYS thinks it's right no matter if they cite TFOR [made it up, so sue me]. So therefore the rest have to be wrong by that thought???

If anyone is bound to get offended solely by my post alone and is basing their decision to post here again [like Tim], I strongly urge you not to base that on account of me. I do not "witch hunt" christians. In addition, I speak rarely about any such issues, political and religion included... I speak from the heart, personal experience, and what I see day in/day out.

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Slowly but surely getting over the loss of TFP v. 3.0.
Where the hell am I?....
Showering once a month does not make you a better person.

"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy."
Martin Luther King, Jr.

Willravel

I was born and raised Lutheran. I never even had a second thought about it until I was essentially an adult. Once I did put it under the microscope, I found that there was no logic behind it. It pained me to realize that, but it was for me to realize. My faith was hindered by knowledge, pure and simple. It still pains me to this day, but I can't simply throw my understandign to the wind for the promise of salvation from sin. Did Jesus die on the cross? Yep. Was Jesus the son of God? I don't know. The only proof is a very old and questionble text filled with great moral lessons.

That being said, I don't know how to feel about other christians. As someone who had no problems living with the various paradox and contradiction of christianity for two decades, I can certinally relate. I understand the feeling of community and connection that comes from the faith (not christianity pecifically but any faith). I also understand the comfort from believing in something as big and wonderful as God. The thought that there is in fact a true, perfect mind ruling over all of existence can really bring a sense of order to life. Having faith can be an excelent way to live your life, and I do not consider a life dedicated to God to be a wasted life, so long as one understands the teachings of their religion (as opposed to doing selish and greedy things in the name of God).

On the other hand, I have to wonder why more christians don't question their faith more. When you apply christianity, for example, to science, many things don't add up. So we are asked to have faith about them. The problem is that having faith in something is giving it your trust, and trust is earned. Should I simply trust God? I don't see how I could. I no longer see the rationale behind assuming that Jesus walked on water. How? Was the surface tension changed somehow? Was Jesus more boyant than the average human? Doubtful. More likely Jesus was a great man who was an excelent teacher for people who needed a path in life.

I had a battle in my mind between the young, imaginative, faithful child, and the scrutinizing, rationalizing, unfaithful adult. In the case of religion, the child is losing.

That being said, I do catch myself lashing out at christians from time to time. I say catch because I don't do it with the intention to offend or disrespect. In fact I respect a great many christians. So why do I occasioanlly lash out? It could be that I'm bitter over losing my religous innocense. It could be that I'm mad I didn't figure it out sooner. It could also be that I'm angry that I and so mnany others are probably being decieved.

I'm espically angry that people still choose to use religion as a tool or weapon to the detriment of other people. This is where a great deal of my religionism(?) comes from. Whenever I see Pat Robertson or Dr. James Dobson or other televangilists and listen carefully to their message, it seems like the focus is not on the foundation of the scripture - to love thy neighbor, to treat others with respect, to give to the needy, and the other wonderful lessons - but they insist on spreading dogma and fear so that those that follow them will follow blindly. Religous leaders shouldn't be involved in politics. In fact, there probably shouldn't be religous leaders at all.

If I have ever offended you, the reader, about anything, post back and let me know. If I am offended, I always shoot back and let someone know. If I'm wrong, I'll admit it, apologize and move on. This forum is about communication, and the only way to communicate on TFP is to post. Without the continued communication, this place loses all it's value.

raeanna74

I'm not a devout Christian. But I do believe there is a God and I do believe that he is the only path to the heaven that I believe in. Beyond that I am still examining my beliefs. I have found many discussions useful in examining the things I have been taught. I was raised a conservative northern Baptist.

I have found that the philosophy board is where I feel the most attacked. The attacks are not frequent or by many members. There have been a few occaisions where the tone of the attack was more or less "You're an idiot if you believe that." Also in MANY of the evolutionary discussions that I attempted to participate in years ago I found it useless to even bring up any facts that I found. Because- the response to facts that I found were to either deny their validity, or to ignore my comments and reiterate a previous complaint that creationists believe 'this bunk.'

As a result I don't waste my time contributing to any discussion in which ANY member decides to claim that a differing point of view is a result of a weak minded individual(which has been said more than once). I avoid discussions in which the member/s proclaim that any facts brought to the discussion that are intended to support my point of view are false without said members supporting their argument with fact. This has happened.

In other areas of the board, an expression of faith in God seems to be accepted without disparaging remarks.

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"Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama
My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

Halx

I believe most religions in which fanatics make the headlines tend to get their egos worked up and down the block on any message board. Let's take muslims for example... that whole part of the world right now is eating itself alive and all of the people who are associated with it, but not a part of it are still gonna feel it. You could surround yourself with people who are just like you, but I find that to be embracing ignorance. Immerse yourself in diversity - you will find both solace and adversity. You will learn what makes other people tick so that you can understand yourself.

To me, there is a leveling force in the social world... it enforces that nobody is holy, because for every person who says they are, there are many people who say they aren't.

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-The Administrator
[Don't Feed The Animals]

JustJess

I know that I tend to react irrationally to religious ideas, so I won't respond rather than be unreasonable. But not everyone does refrain. Perhaps it's that religion is such a deeply personal thing. Consider this:

Go to the Politics forum, and pick almost any thread. What do you see? One, people attacking each other over their beliefs - political rather than religious, but beliefs nonetheness. It's not just religion - people defend their belief systems (whatever they may apply to) vehemently.

Two, inevitably, someone's political beliefs will be associated with close-minded religious views. That, I believe, is entirely due to the very public face of Christians and religion that is prevalent today. The few are representing the many, and those of us outside the group aren't liking those few... and making the mistake of thinking they're the many.

Maybe a Christian person, particularly an evangelical person, is more conservative than I in their social views. That doesn't mean I shouldn't learn from them, and why they believe what they believe. If nothing else, we could all do with a bit more foreign perspective.

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My heart knows me better than I know myself, so I'm gonna let it do all the talkin'.

ubertuber

- In my opinion and observation only -

In a way I think that no religious person will feel truly welcome or understood outside of their own community. This is partially because of the nature of religion and faith - we call adherents "believers in" or "followers of" a religion and not "convinced by" or "open to". If you are of a particular faith, the facts of your spirituality are really only the tip of the iceberg. If, on the other hand you are an outside observer, a religion is really just a collection of facts and practices - lacking the intensely personal aspects that make up faith. From that perspective, I don't know why I'd ever expect Christians to feel understood and appreciated in a Christian sort of way by non-believers. And people who are misunderstood often feel unwelcomed.

I think we've got an interesting cross-section of people here at TFP, including some people who are just not open to religions in general. This is in stark contrast to American culture (sorry non-Americans - I love you but you are outnumbered), where Christianity may not be a state religion, but enjoys a certain de facto authenticity. So I guess it is a strange thing to have a lot of people who consider something so personal as Christian faith to be nothing more than just another idea among many. It must be especially strange when the world around you treats your ethos as deserving some automatic respect... I don't think that this a wholely hostile environment to faithful people, but neither is it automatically accepting. I sincerely hope that doesn't translate to a feeling of unwelcome...

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Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

Marvelous Marv

I would take issue that Christians control government (if they did, I suggest that we would not support Israel to such a great extent, and we would thereby incur less hatred from the middle east), nor do they come close to "controlling" Hollywood.

I can't recall who said it, maybe Spike Lee, but he stated publicly that one of his films would not get a best picture Oscar, because it was released in the same year as one about the Holocaust. He was right, too.

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"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."
Margaret Thatcher

martinguerre

Support for Israel isn't a Christian priority? Historically, there have been extremely strong voices for Israel within Evangelic and fundamentalist Christianities...

I'm puzzled by your suggestion here...it makes very little sense to me. Several Christian groups are involved in funding Aliyah, the big hitters of the Christian Right are all vocally pro-Israel...

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For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life.

-John 3:16