Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community  

Go Back   Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community > Chatter > General Discussion


 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 02-06-2006, 04:12 PM   #121 (permalink)
Apocalypse Nerd
 
Astrocloud's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
This is utterly wrong.

Most of the terrorists do not come from poverty, and many come from very well off families (Osma being the very classic example).

Its not poverty that makes one a violent asshole, its culture, be it the culture of the ghetto in New Orleans, or the death cult that is modern Islamic thought.
We don't know that. To say that most terrorists are like Osama is blatently false. Osama has the economic wherewithall to be a leader of terrorists. Still some must be his followers. I submit that they are not all rich.

I think that you can not isolate culture from poverty. There are some extremely impoverished people in Uganda (the world's 7th poorest nation) but they come here and many end up working all the time -like three jobs. Poverty didn't make them violent. However in Northern Uganda, there is a huge problem with a Christian Fundamentalist Terror group known as the LRA. The Lord's Resistance Army was started within a tribe which was impoverished and had a sense of entitlement over other tribes. Feel free to argue with me on any of this... just start a new thread as it is nearly completely -off topic.

I think that is what is happening here. Allah has promised these people that they -the representatives of the One True Religion -should be masters of the world. The only problem is that their extreme adherance to this faith has resulted in a sort of "dark ages" for them. Now any criticism, especially by their "lessers" is like rubbing a raw wound. After all, why aren't they God's chosen people?
Astrocloud is offline  
Old 02-06-2006, 05:05 PM   #122 (permalink)
Addict
 
Me thinks Roachboys post #106 should be a sticky. Bang on.
percy is offline  
Old 02-06-2006, 05:11 PM   #123 (permalink)
 
abaya's Avatar
 
Location: Iceland
/me agrees with Percy, particularly Roachboy's quote here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by roachboy
racist pseudo-explanations knit themselves into the "common sense" of people who experience anxieties about a range of factors (economic stability, social position in a changing world, "the war on terror" particularly in the way the bushpeople stage it--that is as unmotivated politically, as a conflcit between good (white christians) and evil (brown muslims) etc. etc. etc.). it functions to shape projections based in these anxieties onto others in the world. it is an example of the usage of racism as a kind of collective therapy, a way of avoding political dimensions, of displacing it onto a different register.
As for the question of poverty: Ustwo, have ya been to the Middle East lately? There aren't millions of rich people running around. In fact, there are very few, and those are VERY rich, yes. But they are far from being the majority. Check out the movie Syriana for a semi-decent portrayal of what drives people to violence in that, or any, area of the world.

Poverty does not determine behavior 100%, I certainly agree. But being black or brown or living in a ghetto does not a violent person make. Material conditions have a very strong impact on culture and social organization in particular, no less so in the Middle East than right here in affluent America. Infrastructure is the foundation of structure and superstructure, not the other way around. And certainly, race is not the foundation of behavior... (can't believe I actually had to say that).

(I suppose we are getting off topic. Sorry.)
__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.

--Khalil Gibran

Last edited by abaya; 02-06-2006 at 05:23 PM..
abaya is offline  
Old 02-06-2006, 05:28 PM   #124 (permalink)
Pissing in the cornflakes
 
Ustwo's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Astrocloud
We don't know that. To say that most terrorists are like Osama is blatently false. Osama has the economic wherewithall to be a leader of terrorists. Still some must be his followers. I submit that they are not all rich.
And I never said they were all rich, but the 9/11 hijackers did not come from poverty but solid 'middle' class famlies. I'm saying poverty has very little to do with it.
__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.
Ustwo is offline  
Old 02-06-2006, 05:30 PM   #125 (permalink)
Pissing in the cornflakes
 
Ustwo's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by abaya
/me agrees with Percy, particularly Roachboy's quote here:


As for the question of poverty: Ustwo, have ya been to the Middle East lately? There aren't millions of rich people running around. In fact, there are very few, and those are VERY rich, yes. But they are far from being the majority. Check out the movie Syriana for a semi-decent portrayal of what drives people to violence in that, or any, area of the world.

Poverty does not determine behavior 100%, I certainly agree. But being black or brown or living in a ghetto does not a violent person make. Material conditions have a very strong impact on culture and social organization in particular, no less so in the Middle East than right here in affluent America. Infrastructure is the foundation of structure and superstructure, not the other way around. And certainly, race is not the foundation of behavior... (can't believe I actually had to say that).

(I suppose we are getting off topic. Sorry.)
I submit that poverty has nothing to do with islamic radicals. Sure they use the poor like everyone else, but the movement is not due to poverty.
__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.
Ustwo is offline  
Old 02-06-2006, 05:49 PM   #126 (permalink)
 
roachboy's Avatar
 
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
that's because you haven't done any reasearch, ustwo, and so havent the faintest idea what you are talking about. unless you think that all arabs are basically the same, that all muslims are arabs, and that knowing factoids about **some** aspects of the situation in saudi arabia means that you know everything you need to in order to write authoritative sounding sentences. (it's hard to write while listening to morton subotnik's music, btw--in case you were wondering what it would be like)

researchers working in france and north africa have shown that the vast majority of "fundamentalist" variants of islam--the small, socially marginal groups that you refer to when you think you are talking about islam in general---the folk who identify share certain features:
they tend to be poor to very poor
they come from socially and culturally marginal areas
they are the main are quite young (under 30).

now you *could* make the argument that, in this case, judging from much of the work on these areas, that poverty in itself is not enough to explain these groups--you have to factor in the other two.
well those....and you need to add:
the complex politics of the major organizations that run the various muslim communities within each nation-state;
the characteristics of state power;
the history of relations between these states and the major administrative entities that comprise the muslim community

for example

....and matters of geography--physical, economic, social, cultural, religious....

to the factors of poverty and sense of marginalization (which may or may not be directly linked to poverty) and the sense of foreclosure of possibilities experienced by younger generations within the more marginalized areas.

then you might be able to model these groups

but if you wanted to extend the modelling, you'd have to gather parallel types of information for each new area you tried to include. that is because local histories matter, ustwo--and muslims have them--and they are every bit as complex and meaningful to the folk who live within them, who make them, as yours is to you.
__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Last edited by roachboy; 02-06-2006 at 06:01 PM.. Reason: i edited because i was engaged in editing
roachboy is offline  
Old 02-06-2006, 08:40 PM   #127 (permalink)
President Rick
 
mrklixx's Avatar
 
Location: location location
Who knew that pastries could be so volitile?
__________________
This post is content. If you don't like it then you are not content. Or perhaps just incontinent.

This is not a link - Do not click here

I hate animated avatars.
mrklixx is offline  
Old 02-06-2006, 10:43 PM   #128 (permalink)
Psycho
 
DJ Happy's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelicVampire
Wow, thanks DJ, that truly was enlightening... the whole west is weakening and a neocon said 'lets put a small country up against the wall and slap it around'. Ohh and the lovely non-insulting cartoon (obviously the west are uncaring business men simply throwing their money around at the aid machine).

Now let me go get my crusade hat, I feel a slapping around coming on.
A sarcastic post of this nature is really uncalled for, thank you.

The cartoon you refered to is in reference to the $700 million that has gone missing from the Palestinian coffers and is an indictment of the Palestinian officials. You complain how quickly Muslims are to take offence, yet you have just done exactly the same here, and in this instance completely without basis.

If all you want to do is hate, fine. But you please go and do it somewhere else so the rest of us can discuss these issues civily.
DJ Happy is offline  
Old 02-06-2006, 10:46 PM   #129 (permalink)
Psycho
 
DJ Happy's Avatar
 
Never mind, Charlatan seems to have covered it...

Last edited by DJ Happy; 02-06-2006 at 10:55 PM..
DJ Happy is offline  
Old 02-07-2006, 12:16 AM   #130 (permalink)
Psycho
 
DJ Happy's Avatar
 
I just read this. It seems that Jyllands-Posten does indeed have some sensitivities when it comes to offending religions:

http://media.guardian.co.uk/site/sto...=ticker-103704
DJ Happy is offline  
Old 02-07-2006, 12:34 AM   #131 (permalink)
Insane
 
AngelicVampire's Avatar
 
DJ, that cartoon was very non-specific, it could easily be applied where I did and take offense at it (well not really, I didn't find it offensive but others could). The point was that their media is not exactly being "Western" friendly in all this, and that we could easily take offense as they have (heck if the Jews reacted as the Muslims have to some of the cartoons Israel would have been on the warpath by now...!).
AngelicVampire is offline  
Old 02-07-2006, 01:09 AM   #132 (permalink)
Please touch this.
 
Halx's Avatar
 
Owner/Admin
Location: Manhattan
Jesus fuckin christ. Just nuke that entire section of the god damn earth and let us be done with it. As an individual who finds all religions ridiculous, there is not one that stands out as more of a nuisance than Islam. You can find cultures with more malicious intents. You can find religions who don't even profess peace. But you cannot find a more obnoxious, annoying and dangerous choice of lifestyle than that of radical Islam.

I'm gonna offend a lot of people by saying this, sure. I've had it though. I don't hold much sacred at all, and I don't profess to even understand what the fuck is going through the minds of these radicals. I'm also aware that they do not represent every single muslim in existence. With all that said, just nuke the motherfuckers the minute they have the gall to terrorize people of different beliefs simply because they do not agree. It's fucked and there is no justification.

We all share this planet, and after thousands of years to get adjusted, if you cant HANG with people who are DIFFERENT than you, you gotta go. Period.


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Part 2.

That's exactly what they're thinking right now. Just swap their culture with ours. How do we resolve this? Is there even a way at all? Do we even want to? To begin, to have any shred of hope, I feel it's important to not even take the stance of Part 1 of my post. In fact, I should hope that those who are in charge of resolving this do not feel that they are AGAINST the Muslim people, and that they must force them to cope.

That is not to say they don't have to. It's all in how you present it to the people, though. Humans, in large masses, are dumb as fuck. Even angry, violent and empassioned ones. Hell, ESPECIALLY those ones. Dress up your message properly and they'll swallow it like it was an instant headache relief pill.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Part 3.

My own, real opinion. Often, people forget that NOW is simply a result of THEN. The FUTURE will be a result of NOW. I feel that the destructive and violent tendencies of these radicals will ultimately be the cause of their collapse, regardless of how they are dealt with now. They will be the reason for their own demise. When it happens, it will be not a moment too soon. It's a shame it will happen slowly.

Funny though.

The same could be said about us.
__________________
You have found this post informative.
-The Administrator
[Don't Feed The Animals]
Halx is offline  
Old 02-07-2006, 01:22 AM   #133 (permalink)
Psycho
 
DJ Happy's Avatar
 
How on earth could that even be interpreted as "the west are uncaring businessmen?" What aspect of that cartoon came across as "uncaring?" It simply makes no sense. And if you didn't even find it offensive yourself, then what is the point of your post?

You complain that one of the authors feels that the Arab world is being bullied by the West as being "not exactly Western friendly." Are you even aware of what is happening in the world right now? What on earth do you expect? I didn't post the link to show you that all Arabs love the West and really appreciate their religion being denigrated merely for the fun of it. I posted it to show you that there are moderate Muslim opinions being broadcast and Muslims condemning the violent nature of some of the protests. If you are shocked that everyone in the Arab world is not having a West love-in during this episode of world history then you are deluding only yourself.
DJ Happy is offline  
Old 02-07-2006, 02:01 AM   #134 (permalink)
Shackle Me Not
 
jwoody's Avatar
 
Location: Newcastle - England.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ Happy
I just read this. It seems that Jyllands-Posten does indeed have some sensitivities when it comes to offending religions:

http://media.guardian.co.uk/site/sto...=ticker-103704
The way I read that story, I got the impression that it was an editorial decision not-to-publish unfunny cartoons, submitted on a whim, by an unfunny cartoonist.
__________________
.
jwoody is offline  
Old 02-07-2006, 02:18 AM   #135 (permalink)
Insane
 
AngelicVampire's Avatar
 
DJ, look at the picture, the expression looks rather blank on the guy throwing in the money, and basically we often do have a plan to give money to charities and the rest of the aid machine, however getting the aid (money -> useful stuff) to those that actually need it can be very difficult. The point of my post was that I could be upset by the comments and images and could go on a warpath... we all find things that upset us, personally I don't find much offensive (I am an overweight computer geek, being thick skinned helps), however I could easily find things in the links you posted that would make me theoretically upset.

What is happening in the world right now? That truly depends on the spin you place on events. Personally I do feel that removing Saddam was the right choice, ok it should have been done years ago but at least its done, pulling out right now would be silly as it would leave a country in a very vulnerable stage and likely lead to someone similar to Saddam reexerting power except with plans to not get ousted. What else is happening in the region? Israel/Palestine truly depends on which side of that fence you stand, I stand with Israel (even if they claim they want to wipe me out they haven't acted on it yet!). Iran making inroads towards a nuclear enrichment program? I think anyone can see why people are objecting to that, Iran are not know as the most enlightened government in the world, and having access to nuclear material that may fall into terrorist hands is pretty scary, I could easily build the rest of the bomb, the delivery system and any incidentals, the only hard part of making a nuke now adays is getting the materials for the fission/fusion.

Ok our media is perhaps slanted against the Arab/Muslim world, however theirs is no better towards us. All my point was is basically that someone can take offense at anything, to censor everything that may cause offense would well, well I suppose we should just kill everyone now because we might offend in the future.
AngelicVampire is offline  
Old 02-07-2006, 02:26 AM   #136 (permalink)
Addict
 
I think the cartoons proved the editors point.
The world is afraid to say anything bad about Muslims, and the radicals have shown exactly why.

A good quote was in the morning paper: "We're no longer in political correctness, but approaching a state of Islamic correctness."
WillyPete is offline  
Old 02-07-2006, 03:13 AM   #137 (permalink)
Psycho
 
DJ Happy's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwoody
The way I read that story, I got the impression that it was an editorial decision not-to-publish unfunny cartoons, submitted on a whim, by an unfunny cartoonist.
From the article:

"The Danish daily turned down the cartoons of Christ three years ago, on the grounds that they could be offensive to readers and were not funny."

"Zieler received an email back from the paper's Sunday editor, Jens Kaiser, which said: "I don't think Jyllands-Posten's readers will enjoy the drawings. As a matter of fact, I think that they will provoke an outcry. Therefore, I will not use them."

The Mohamed cartoons aren't funny either - most of them are just drawings of a man they say is Mohamed. I just find it somewhat inconsistent that Jyllands-Posten rejected cartoons satirising Jesus because they might cause offense an provoke and outcry, whilst they published the cartoons satirising Mohamed because they would cause offense and provoke an outcry.

Last edited by DJ Happy; 02-07-2006 at 03:21 AM..
DJ Happy is offline  
Old 02-07-2006, 03:32 AM   #138 (permalink)
Shackle Me Not
 
jwoody's Avatar
 
Location: Newcastle - England.
There's a massive difference between an editor rejecting cartoons which he didn't ask for and publishing a series of cartoons which he specifically requested.

Personally, I find the entire concept of gods ridiculous so I can't sympathise with your offense towards the mohamed cartoons.
__________________
.
jwoody is offline  
Old 02-07-2006, 03:32 AM   #139 (permalink)
Crazy
 
Location: buckle of the snow belt
Not quite out of context

Here's an interesting portion from a BBC report on this story:

Quote:
'Test our feelings'

Hundreds of people took part in the morning demonstration in Afghanistan's Laghman province, in a second day of protests in the city.

Three people died when police fired on protesters after a police station came under attack, a government spokesman said.

Demonstrators shouted "death to Denmark" and "death to France". They called for the expulsion of diplomats and soldiers, who were sent by both countries as part of international efforts in the US-led "war on terror".

"They want to test our feelings," protester Mawli Abdul Qahar Abu Israra told the BBC.

"They want to know whether Muslims are extremists or not. Death to them and to their newspapers," he said.
Emphasis mine in the quote.

Gee, Mawli, I think your quote and your protests sort of color my opinion...

For whatever reason the "insert hyperlink" button wouldn't work, so if you want to visit the story, go here ~ http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4684652.stm
__________________
10th sig ~> "How many a dispute could have been deflated into a single paragraph if the disputants had dared to define their terms?" -- Aristotle
zz0011 is offline  
Old 02-07-2006, 03:33 AM   #140 (permalink)
Psycho
 
DJ Happy's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelicVampire
DJ, look at the picture, the expression looks rather blank on the guy throwing in the money, and basically we often do have a plan to give money to charities and the rest of the aid machine, however getting the aid (money -> useful stuff) to those that actually need it can be very difficult. The point of my post was that I could be upset by the comments and images and could go on a warpath... we all find things that upset us, personally I don't find much offensive (I am an overweight computer geek, being thick skinned helps), however I could easily find things in the links you posted that would make me theoretically upset.
That is the most convoluted argument I've ever heard. You might be offended by what they said, but you're not, but you could be, so it's as bad as the Mohamed cartoons? Forgive me for being totally confused by this train of thought.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelicVampire
Ok our media is perhaps slanted against the Arab/Muslim world, however theirs is no better towards us. All my point was is basically that someone can take offense at anything, to censor everything that may cause offense would well, well I suppose we should just kill everyone now because we might offend in the future.
Why have none of the other cartoons/satires/parodies of Islam provoked this kind of response? You make it sound like this happens everyday all over the world. Jyllands-Posten knew that these cartoons would result in enormous outcry and they deliberately set out to provoke a response. Well, I guess they got what they wanted.
DJ Happy is offline  
Old 02-07-2006, 03:34 AM   #141 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Location: Right here
Quote:
Originally Posted by roachboy
that's because you haven't done any reasearch, ustwo, and so havent the faintest idea what you are talking about. unless you think that all arabs are basically the same, that all muslims are arabs, and that knowing factoids about **some** aspects of the situation in saudi arabia means that you know everything you need to in order to write authoritative sounding sentences. (it's hard to write while listening to morton subotnik's music, btw--in case you were wondering what it would be like)

researchers working in france and north africa have shown that the vast majority of "fundamentalist" variants of islam--the small, socially marginal groups that you refer to when you think you are talking about islam in general---the folk who identify share certain features:
they tend to be poor to very poor
they come from socially and culturally marginal areas
they are the main are quite young (under 30).

now you *could* make the argument that, in this case, judging from much of the work on these areas, that poverty in itself is not enough to explain these groups--you have to factor in the other two.
well those....and you need to add:
the complex politics of the major organizations that run the various muslim communities within each nation-state;
the characteristics of state power;
the history of relations between these states and the major administrative entities that comprise the muslim community

for example

....and matters of geography--physical, economic, social, cultural, religious....

to the factors of poverty and sense of marginalization (which may or may not be directly linked to poverty) and the sense of foreclosure of possibilities experienced by younger generations within the more marginalized areas.

then you might be able to model these groups

but if you wanted to extend the modelling, you'd have to gather parallel types of information for each new area you tried to include. that is because local histories matter, ustwo--and muslims have them--and they are every bit as complex and meaningful to the folk who live within them, who make them, as yours is to you.
imagine we would meet over here...and amidst someone smelling like a marxist to boot!

but I digress, the thing I want to comment on is this notion of dispute you (and abaya) are having with ustwo. I have to preface with the statement that I filter from the same general schools of thought you two often pull from. According to the most current literature from my wing (Crim & socio-legal scholars), ustwo comes close to being accurate. But I don't know how he conceptualizes his points. That is to say, the evidence seems to support the contention that terrorists are coming from the "solid middle class". But that doesn't really tap into the full realm of anxiety and decentering and a full range of other complex issues many of our population are dealing with: oh say, lots of previously working people in Detroit or in a mill town
in anyVille, USA. Or even lotsa people running around over "there" shooting "them" if you wanted a more parallel analogy.

That said, the numbers of the 'kinds' of people ramming large aircraft into symbolic skyscrapers (actually if you had outlined what the symbolism meant to the respective populations you might have not fallen into what I think is a semantic argument with ustwo) is very, very, very small in relation to the people you and abaya seem to be referencing lately--the impoverished, downtrodden, marginalized, & etc. And infintismal (?) in relation to the general muslim population. but you seem to have done what you carefully tried to avoid and alert others from doing--collapsing various groups along distinct class lines into a homogenous group.

Shit, it's getting late (early, wth) and I'm supposed to be doing something entirely different so this is coming out rapid shot and not at all the tone I wanted to add to your and abayas insightful comments (among a couple other people I found myself nodding along with, but can't quite remember how to spell their names)

But I mean to say that the people we are reading about, the fire, gun, and sign slingers are a different group than the bomb slingers. you and I and abaya, I am almost positive, would agree that the bomb slingers are not filling the mosques. No, their members are of the sign, rock, fire, gun toting variety. Many of the people depicted in some pictures in this very thread would have trouble skinning a live rabbit much less hacking a human head off its stalk. And it's not too difficult to start to draw some lines between the youthful, angry, distraught faces in the mosques and their parents--those men (and it's almost always men, isn't it so far?) who very infrequently blow themselves up as their last act of powerless(ness).

I guess I just wanted to remind you that ustwo sees all of these characters as a one large mass. The youthful protesters, as they move into terrorists, and all coming from this large cauldron of muslimicity. So I think he tries to make these vertical connections between the muslimness of it all, the civil unrest, and the tangible things he feels might actually kill him or his way of life if left unaddressed. Meanwhile his politics don't allow him from analyzing the horizontal connections between structures in our society as impediments to theirs and its consequence on what he sees as a 'solid' middle class. You know, maybe in another time and place, you might have even questioned that particular premise of his: that there is anything approaching a "solid" middle class. For it seems likely that if one were to talk about the evisceration of such a strata then one might go a long way towards addressing terrorism. And by addressing I mean thinking and discoursing about it in a copmlex manner. and then maybe the who's we are discussing wouldn't congeal while the what's they are doing wouldn't collapse into some anti-american, anti-freedom, anti-US kind of understandings that become so difficult to disabuse in an internet forum medium.

but hot damn it was a pleasure to read your comments out here in general and I'm glad I decided to tighten my seatbelt and delve on into this thread after all because I had no idea what I was going to slap into and especially after I read the first page or two of responses.
__________________
"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman
smooth is offline  
Old 02-07-2006, 03:35 AM   #142 (permalink)
Zyr
Crazy
 
Location: Hamilton, NZ
To me, this whole thing is less about the cartoons, about the portests, about Islam, and more about the media.

The cartoons were posted in september, then reposted. Only violent protests are shown on the news. Few, if any, views by mulisms denouncing the violent protests are shown.

The media is fueling this, and the rest of the Islam vs. Everyone Else feelings that seem to be around lately.


Oh, and blowing up people is bad, whether by straping explosives to yourself or during an unjustified war. Don't do it.
__________________
"Oh, irony! Oh, no, no, we don't get that here. See, uh, people ski topless here while smoking dope, so irony's not really a high priority. We haven't had any irony here since about, uh, '83 when I was the only practitioner of it, and I stopped because I was tired of being stared at."

Omnia mutantu, nos et mutamur in illis.
All things change, and we change with them.
- Neil Gaiman, Marvel 1602
Zyr is offline  
Old 02-07-2006, 03:36 AM   #143 (permalink)
Crazy
 
Location: buckle of the snow belt
What Goes Around Comes Around

From ~

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117....html?from=rss

Quote:
Iran to publish Holocaust cartoons
From correspondents in Tehran
07-02-2006
From: Agence France-Presse

IRAN'S largest selling newspaper announced today it was holding a contest on cartoons of the Holocaust in response to the publishing in European papers of caricatures of the Prophet Mohammed.

"It will be an international cartoon contest about the Holocaust," said Farid Mortazavi, the graphics editor for Hamshahri newspaper - which is published by Teheran's conservative municipality.

He said the plan was to turn the tables on the assertion that newspapers can print offensive material in the name of freedom of expression.

"The Western papers printed these sacrilegious cartoons on the pretext of freedom of expression, so let's see if they mean what they say and also print these Holocaust cartoons," he said.

Iran's fiercely anti-Israeli regime is supportive of so-called Holocaust revisionist historians, who maintain the systematic slaughter by the Nazis of mainland Europe's Jews as well as other groups during World War II has been either invented or exaggerated.

Iran's hardline President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad prompted international anger when he dismissed the systematic slaughter by the Nazis of mainland Europe's Jews as a "myth" used to justify the creation of Israel.

Mr Mortazavi said tomorrow's edition of the paper will invite cartoonists to enter the competition, with "private individuals" offering gold coins to the best 12 artists - the same number of cartoons that appeared in the Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten.

Last week, the Iranian foreign ministry also invited British Prime Minister Tony Blair to Teheran to take part in a planned conference on the Holocaust, even though the idea has been branded by Mr Blair as "shocking, ridiculous, stupid".

Mr Blair also said Mr Ahmadinejad "should come and see the evidence of the Holocaust himself in the countries of Europe", to which Iran responded by saying it was willing to send a team of "independent investigators".
__________________
10th sig ~> "How many a dispute could have been deflated into a single paragraph if the disputants had dared to define their terms?" -- Aristotle
zz0011 is offline  
Old 02-07-2006, 03:38 AM   #144 (permalink)
Psycho
 
DJ Happy's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwoody
There's a massive difference between an editor rejecting cartoons which he didn't ask for and publishing a series of cartoons which he specifically requested.

Personally, I find the entire concept of gods ridiculous so I can't sympathise with your offense towards the mohamed cartoons.
I'm also an atheist. I don't find the cartoons offensive, but I am not impressed by the deliberate and, it appears, measured provokation of an entire religion whilst hiding behind one of the most sacred and powerful tenets of democracy.
DJ Happy is offline  
Old 02-07-2006, 03:44 AM   #145 (permalink)
Shackle Me Not
 
jwoody's Avatar
 
Location: Newcastle - England.
This entire episode is about far more than just a cartoon.

700 million people are enraged, to the point of burning embassies, threatening beheadings, and burning flags... by a cartoon?

I don't believe that for one second.
__________________
.
jwoody is offline  
Old 02-07-2006, 03:52 AM   #146 (permalink)
Junkie
 
highthief's Avatar
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
Time to stop using oil and wash our hands of everything between Morroco and Indonesia.
__________________
Si vis pacem parabellum.
highthief is offline  
Old 02-07-2006, 04:04 AM   #147 (permalink)
Apocalypse Nerd
 
Astrocloud's Avatar
 
Astrocloud is offline  
Old 02-07-2006, 04:31 AM   #148 (permalink)
Femme Fatale
 
Nancy's Avatar
 
Location: Elysium
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwoody
This entire episode is about far more than just a cartoon.

700 million people are enraged, to the point of burning embassies, threatening beheadings, and burning flags... by a cartoon?

I don't believe that for one second.
Neither do I. Remember the Dutch artist Van Gogh who was murdered because of his criticism of Islam in his film, Submission? For some reason that film didn't spawn the same reaction like our cartoons have. Go figure.
__________________
I have all the characteristics of a human being: blood, flesh, skin, hair; but not a single, clear, identifiable emotion, except for greed and disgust. Something horrible is happening inside of me and I don't know why. My nightly bloodlust has overflown into my days. I feel lethal, on the verge of frenzy.
I think my mask of sanity is about to slip.
Nancy is offline  
Old 02-07-2006, 05:51 AM   #149 (permalink)
Junkie
 
james t kirk's Avatar
 
Location: Toronto
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy
Neither do I. Remember the Dutch artist Van Gogh who was murdered because of his criticism of Islam in his film, Submission? For some reason that film didn't spawn the same reaction like our cartoons have. Go figure.
Yeah, it's interesting after Van Gogh was murdered by an islamofascist, the Dutch were quite outraged. Holland considers itself (and rightly so) one of the most tolerant nations on earth. The Dutch could not understand how a person living in a nation which which welcomed him / them with tolerance could be so INtolerant themselves.

There has been a backlash in Holland since that murder against closed minded and extremist thinking that so many muslims subscribe to. Denmark is no doubt going to follow suit after all this I would imagine.

The one thing I find amazing is watching the islamofascists protesting in Britain and Europe is that I can't help but think how a similar protest by Christians (not that Christians would be so thin skinned) would be dealt with in the Islamic world.
james t kirk is offline  
Old 02-07-2006, 06:25 AM   #150 (permalink)
Getting it.
 
Charlatan's Avatar
 
Super Moderator
Location: Lion City
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwoody
700 million people are enraged, to the point of burning embassies, threatening beheadings, and burning flags... by a cartoon?
I think you have to be careful saying something like this... what you are suggesting here is that 700 million people (of Muslim faith) are supporting the burning and the beheadings while in fact that is not the case.

Yes, there are many, many that are upset and offended, enough to protest, these cartoons. But to suggest that every Muslim supports the extreme actions of the few is just wrong.
__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke
Charlatan is offline  
Old 02-07-2006, 06:33 AM   #151 (permalink)
will always be an Alyson Hanniganite
 
Bill O'Rights's Avatar
 
Location: In the dust of the archives
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlatan
But to suggest that every Muslim supports the extreme actions of the few is just wrong.
Wow! You mean just like not every Christian is a Pat Robertson following fundamentalist? What a concept.

I'll stop being sarcastic now, as those at whom it was directed...probably aren't going to get it anyway.
__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.
Bill O'Rights is offline  
Old 02-07-2006, 06:46 AM   #152 (permalink)
Femme Fatale
 
Nancy's Avatar
 
Location: Elysium
^^ I think he merely just threw out a number. I think we're all aware that obviously not all the Muslims support the violent actions that have occured lately.

Naser Khader (Danish Muslim politician - originally from Syria and chairman for the Moderate Muslims society) has asked the Imams to speak for themselves from now on as the vast marjority of Muslims in Denmark do not share their opinion on the situation.
__________________
I have all the characteristics of a human being: blood, flesh, skin, hair; but not a single, clear, identifiable emotion, except for greed and disgust. Something horrible is happening inside of me and I don't know why. My nightly bloodlust has overflown into my days. I feel lethal, on the verge of frenzy.
I think my mask of sanity is about to slip.
Nancy is offline  
Old 02-07-2006, 06:53 AM   #153 (permalink)
Getting it.
 
Charlatan's Avatar
 
Super Moderator
Location: Lion City
I know he just threw a number out there and wasn't intending it to read that way... I just wanted to point out that, given the heat of this particular thread and the topic in general, we should try not to generalize where possible.

And yes, Bill, that's exactly what I'm trying to say.

There are many in this thread who are taking a very knee jerk reaction to this situation and I don't think it's ultimately productive of anything. All it does is further inflame an already ridiculous situation.
__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke
Charlatan is offline  
Old 02-07-2006, 06:54 AM   #154 (permalink)
Rail Baron
 
stevo's Avatar
 
Location: Tallyfla
Quote:
Originally Posted by james t kirk
The one thing I find amazing is watching the islamofascists protesting in Britain and Europe is that I can't help but think how a similar protest by Christians (not that Christians would be so thin skinned) would be dealt with in the Islamic world.
Interesting....very interesting.
__________________
"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser
stevo is offline  
Old 02-07-2006, 07:02 AM   #155 (permalink)
 
abaya's Avatar
 
Location: Iceland
Quote:
Originally Posted by james t kirk
(not that Christians would be so thin skinned)
Wow. Not even sure I want to get started on that. In fact, I won't.

Nancy, thanks for your input... was wondering about your take on the situation. Good to hear about the moderate Muslim politician taking a stand in Denmark. I am sure there are many more moderates whose voices we are not hearing because of the media's bloodlust.
__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.

--Khalil Gibran

Last edited by abaya; 02-07-2006 at 07:07 AM..
abaya is offline  
Old 02-07-2006, 07:04 AM   #156 (permalink)
Shackle Me Not
 
jwoody's Avatar
 
Location: Newcastle - England.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlatan
I know he just threw a number out there and wasn't intending it to read that way... I just wanted to point out that, given the heat of this particular thread and the topic in general, we should try not to generalize where possible.
It's too late for that now.

~I'm leaving the forum~

Bye.
__________________
.
jwoody is offline  
Old 02-07-2006, 07:04 AM   #157 (permalink)
Shackle Me Not
 
jwoody's Avatar
 
Location: Newcastle - England.
Right, I'm back.


What did I miss?
__________________
.
jwoody is offline  
Old 02-07-2006, 07:34 AM   #158 (permalink)
Rail Baron
 
stevo's Avatar
 
Location: Tallyfla
nothing really. We were discussings some riots about some cartoons and Iran decided they want to do a Holocost cartoon contest to see if the western media reprints the cartoons they publish "just to be fair." Aint Iran a great country, such a beacon of peace and understanding? If only the whole world was one big Iran...then we wouldn't have to depend on foreigners for oil...hmmmm.
__________________
"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser
stevo is offline  
Old 02-07-2006, 07:46 AM   #159 (permalink)
Addict
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevo
nothing really. We were discussings some riots about some cartoons and Iran decided they want to do a Holocost cartoon contest to see if the western media reprints the cartoons they publish "just to be fair." Aint Iran a great country, such a beacon of peace and understanding? If only the whole world was one big Iran...then we wouldn't have to depend on foreigners for oil...hmmmm.
Wonder why the western media doesn't want to run holocaust cartoons. Afterall, cartoons don't mean anything and anyone insulted in the least by them shouldn't be. Bring em on I say.
percy is offline  
Old 02-07-2006, 07:57 AM   #160 (permalink)
Addict
 
And in Toronto,

By BRODIE FENLON, TORONTO SUN

A week-long conference on radical Islam organized by Jewish student groups at the University of Toronto has stirred up controversy and resentment among Muslims at a time of heightened sensitivities due to world events.

The "Know Radical Islam Week," which includes presentations on terrorism and civil rights violations in Islamic regimes, began yesterday at Sidney Smith Hall just as violent protests swept the globe over published caricatures of Prophet Mohammed.

The coincidence was not lost on U of T student Jonathan Jaffit, director of campus affairs for Betar-Tagar, the Zionist student activist group that helped organize the conference.

"The issue of the cartoons in the European media just goes to showcase even further how radical Islam is suppressing freedom of speech through violence," he said.

"This is about a political ideology that's hijacked a religion," he said of the conference topic. "It will definitely stir up controversy, but we cannot shy away from these events."


Student Mubdi Rahman, academic affairs co-ordinator with the university's Muslim Student Association, said the conference "seeks to divide, as opposed to bridge any sort of dialogue on these issues."

Rahman said he has heard from many Muslim students who feel threatened they'll be viewed as "radicals" due to their beliefs, some of which will be criticized at the conference. The MSA issued an e-mail to its 2,000 members urging them to "exercise restraint and dignity" over the next few weeks.


What's next? Know Radical Judaism Week? Guess it's ok for some but not others



http://www.torontosun.com/News/Toron...29452-sun.html
percy is offline  
 

Tags
cartoon, danish


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 03:51 PM.

Tilted Forum Project

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
© 2002-2012 Tilted Forum Project

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 259 260 261 262 263 264 265 266 267 268 269 270 271 272 273 274 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360