Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community - View Single Post - Can anyone now say the Surge isn't working?

Seaver · 01-12-2008, 06:41 PM

Very Valid points RB, but if you want to take a military historian perspective you can't compare Iraq to Vietnam quite that easily.

Iraq was a counter-insurgency after the 2nd week of the war effectively. There was no military infrastructure, little or no chain of command, and no battle lines. Vietnam constantly switched back and forth between counter-insurgencies and traditional military conflict.

Contrary to popular belief that last statement was true. Every time it switched to traditional military conflict we massacred the Vietnamese. The Tet Offensive, though potrayed as a disaster by the news (nice parallel to your argument), was a complete military success.

The reason I bring this up is counter-insurgencies and traditional military conflicts are fought with completely different tactics, and have wildly different outcomes. Closer parallels to these are the British in Burma (or the Gurkas) or us in the Philippeans. Counter-Insurgencies have always lasted around 10 years, ending with either exhaustion of the enemies or further incorporation and empowerment of said group into the central government.

That is a major reason for your article (which I was aware of, just left out) that I see as no big deal is because it satisfies the second of the prior listing. Yes we are empowering members of a group we just wiped out, however their power is SEVERELY limited and in my opinion is acceptable if it lowers violence. With less than a handful of those prior Ba'ath party members involved in the government, we have won over their family and most likely their entire tribe to supporting the government. All of a sudden we have made a large ally for a small price.

I agree it's hard to gauge, which is why I keep pointing to Murtha. A man who is so strongly opposed to the war from day one is openly stating it is on the mend. I have no doubt he has better access than us to information across the board, and even he has come to believe in the success where no one can say he's just cow-towing to the administration.

01-12-2008, 06:41 PM	#13 (permalink)
Seaver Junkie Location: Fort Worth, TX	Very Valid points RB, but if you want to take a military historian perspective you can't compare Iraq to Vietnam quite that easily. Iraq was a counter-insurgency after the 2nd week of the war effectively. There was no military infrastructure, little or no chain of command, and no battle lines. Vietnam constantly switched back and forth between counter-insurgencies and traditional military conflict. Contrary to popular belief that last statement was true. Every time it switched to traditional military conflict we massacred the Vietnamese. The Tet Offensive, though potrayed as a disaster by the news (nice parallel to your argument), was a complete military success. The reason I bring this up is counter-insurgencies and traditional military conflicts are fought with completely different tactics, and have wildly different outcomes. Closer parallels to these are the British in Burma (or the Gurkas) or us in the Philippeans. Counter-Insurgencies have always lasted around 10 years, ending with either exhaustion of the enemies or further incorporation and empowerment of said group into the central government. That is a major reason for your article (which I was aware of, just left out) that I see as no big deal is because it satisfies the second of the prior listing. Yes we are empowering members of a group we just wiped out, however their power is SEVERELY limited and in my opinion is acceptable if it lowers violence. With less than a handful of those prior Ba'ath party members involved in the government, we have won over their family and most likely their entire tribe to supporting the government. All of a sudden we have made a large ally for a small price. I agree it's hard to gauge, which is why I keep pointing to Murtha. A man who is so strongly opposed to the war from day one is openly stating it is on the mend. I have no doubt he has better access than us to information across the board, and even he has come to believe in the success where no one can say he's just cow-towing to the administration. __________________ "Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas