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... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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Originally Posted by DaveMatrix
Yes Will, you can complile a list of all the ills religion has cast upon the world, and I could do the opposite......Ok, why not....just to start....
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*Stretches hands*
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Originally Posted by DaveMatrix
First, Christianity provided important presuppositions of science. The Bible teaches that nature is real, not an illusion. It teaches that is has value and that it is good to work with nature. Historically this was an advance over pagan superstitions because the latter saw nature as something to be worshipped or as something filled with spirits which weren't to be angered. As one theologian wrote, "Nature was thus abruptly desacralized, stripped of many of its arbitrary, unpredictable, and doubtless terrifying aspects."{7}
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The idea that nature is real started before Christianity. Plato, for example, disagreed when Parmenides and the Eleatic philosophers claimed that all change, motion, and time was an illusion ... over 300 years before the birth of Jesus. The concept of all change, motion, and time being an illusion was actually explored long after nature's nature was ascertained. I fail to see how Christianity could have effected the world before it existed.
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Originally Posted by DaveMatrix
Also, because it was created by God in an orderly fashion, nature is lawful and can be understood. That is, it follows discernible patterns which can be trusted not to change. "As the creation of a trustworthy God, nature exhibited regularity, dependability, and orderliness. It was intelligible and could be studied. It displayed a knowable order."{8}
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Ah, but how can we be sure they can't be changed unless they are tested? Where in the bible are concepts like Newtonian, Einsteinian, or even quantum physics discussed? And how exactly is nature dependable? The three types of physics I described above are in contradiction with one another, for example.
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Originally Posted by DaveMatrix
Second, Christianity sanctioned science. Science "was justified as a means of alleviating toil and suffering."{9} With animistic and pantheistic cultures, God and nature were so closely related that man, being a part of nature, was incapable of transcending it, that is, of gaining any real control over it. A Christian world view, however, gave man the freedom to subject nature to his needs-with limitations, of course-because man relates primarily to God who is over nature. Technology-or science applied-was developed to meet human needs as an expression of our God-given duty to one another. As one historian put it, "the Christian concept of moral obligation played an important role in attracting people to the study of nature."{10}
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Science was justified? By whom? Science is systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation. It's justification lies in it's meaning. It's here to explain the universe. Also, could you explain how we transcend science? By developing technology, we improve science, we don't transcend it.
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Originally Posted by DaveMatrix
Third, Christianity provided motives for pursuing scientific knowledge. As scientists learned more about the wonders of the universe, they saw God's glory being displayed.
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Is that why abortion clinics are bombed? Or why fossils are destroyed? Or maybe why scientists were jailed or executed?
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Originally Posted by DaveMatrix
Fourth, Christianity "played a role in regulating scientific methodology."{11} Previously, the world was thought to work in perfectly rational ways which could be known primarily through logical deduction. But this approach to science didn't work. Planets don't have to orbit in circular patterns as some people concluded using deductive logic; of course, it was discovered by investigation that they didn't. A newer way of understanding God's creation put the emphasis on God's will. Since God's will couldn't be simply deduced through logical reasoning, experimentation and investigation were necessary. This provided a particular theological grounding for empirical science.
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I'm sure Galileo felt science was being well regulated by Christianity as he sat in prison and had his works banned by the church. BTW, Galilo was one of the first and most prominant supporters of Copernicanism (heliocentric theory of the solar system). I'm enjoying taking apart your arguments.
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Originally Posted by DaveMatrix
The fact is that it was distinctly Christian beliefs which provided the intellectual and moral foundations for the study of nature and for its application through technology. Thus, although Christianity and some scientists or scientific theories might be in opposition, Christianity and science are not.
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Dribble.
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Originally Posted by DaveMatrix
The problem is that people now see freedom not as self- determination, but as self-determination unhindered by any outside standard of morality. Some go so far in their zeal for self- expression that they expect others to assist them in the process, such as pornographic artists who expect government funding.
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The keyword is 'outside' standard of morality. The US government makes it's morals clear when it has laws. If it ain't illegal, it ain't governmentally immoral. If all Judeo-Christian morality were put into the government, we'd have a theocracy. Are you suggesting we should live in a theocracy?
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Originally Posted by DaveMatrix
Some people see Christianity as a force which tries to inhibit proper expression of who we are. But it is the idea of helping people attain the freedom to be and do as God intended that has fueled much Christian activity over the years. For example, Christians were actively engaged in the battle against slavery because of their high view of man as made in God's image.{12}
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I'm sure the Christians that condemned heretics during the inquisition LOVED freedom. I'll tell you what, look up the Curse of Ham. It's entirely possible that Infinite_Loser's ancestors were a victim, just as my ancestors were victims of the Romans.
Enjoy the following versus from the Bible.
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Originally Posted by The Bible
"And if one of your brethren who dwells by you becomes poor, and sells himself to you, you shall not compel him to serve as a slave. As a hired servant and a sojourner he shall be with you, and shall serve you until the Year of Jubilee. And then he shall depart from you—he and his children with him—and shall return to his own family. He shall return to the possession of his fathers. For they are My servants, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt; they shall not be sold as slaves. You shall not rule over him with rigor, but you shall fear your God." (Leviticus 25:39-43)
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Originally Posted by The Bible
And as for your male and female slaves whom you may have from the nations that are around you, from them you may buy male and female slaves. Moreover you may buy the children of the strangers who dwell among you, and their families who are with you, which they beget in your land; and they shall become your property. And you may take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them as a possession; they shall be your permanent slaves. But regarding your brethren, the children of Israel, you shall not rule over one another with rigor." (Leviticus 25:44-46)
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"If you buy a Hebrew servant, he shall serve six years; and in the seventh he shall go out free and pay nothing. If he comes in by himself, he shall go out by himself; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master has given him a wife, and she has borne him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself. But if the servant plainly says, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,' then his master shall bring him to the judges. He shall also bring him to the door, or to the doorpost, and his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him forever." (Exodus 21:2-6)
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"Oh, but Will, those are all from the Old Testament"
Right you are.
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Originally Posted by The Bible
"Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh." (1 Peter 2:18)
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Originally Posted by The Bible
"Bondservants, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in sincerity of heart, as to Christ; not with eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as bondservants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart, with goodwill doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men, knowing that whatever good anyone does, he will receive the same from the Lord, whether he is a slave or free." (Ephesians 6:5-8)
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Originally Posted by The Bible
Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them, and not to steal from them, but to show that they can be fully trusted, so that in every way they will make the teaching about God our Savior attractive." (Titus 2:9-10)
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Originally Posted by The Bible
"Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to win their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord. Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for men, since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving. Anyone who does wrong will be repaid for his wrong, and there is no favoritism." (Colossians 3:22-25)
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Originally Posted by The Bible
"Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed." (1 Timothy 6:1)
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...just to name a few.
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Originally Posted by DaveMatrix
Another example is feminism. Radical feminists complain that Christianity has been an oppressive force over women. But it seems to have escaped their notice that Christianity made significant steps in elevating women above the place they held before Christ came.{13}
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Oh dear. Throughout its history, the Christian religion has deprived women of their right to be treated as equal human beings. Today, Catholic, Mormon and fundamentalist Christian churches still prevent women from taking an equal place among men in their church hierarchies. These churches also oppose equal rights legislation, the right of women to pursue a career outside the home, and the freedom of choice over their own bodies{1}.
It's Bible time:
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Originally Posted by The Bible
"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you." (Genesis 3:16)
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Originally Posted by The Bible
"If, however, the charge is not true and no proof of the girls virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her fathers house and there the men of the town shall stone her to death." (Deut. 22:20-21)
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Originally Posted by The Bible
The Lord said to Moses, "Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man." (Num. 31:17)
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Originally Posted by The Bible
"Wives, submit yourselves unto your husbands, as unto the Lord...Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything." (Eph. 5:22-24)
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Originally Posted by The Bible
"Women should remain silent in churches. They are not allowed to speak; but must be in submission as the Law says." (I Cor. 14:34-35)
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Originally Posted by The Bible
"A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner." (I Tim. 2:11-14)
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Originally Posted by The Bible
"The head of every man is Christ, and the head of every woman is man." (I Cor. 11:3)
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Originally Posted by The Bible
"For man did not come from woman, but woman from man. Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man." (I Cor. 11:8-9)
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The Bible gives the official stamp of approval by god to mistreat and oppress women.
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Originally Posted by DaveMatrix
Contributions to Morality
Let's turn our attention to the issue of morality. Christians are often accused of trying to ram their morality down people's throats. In some instances this might accurately describe what some Christians have done. But for the most part, I believe, the criticism follows our simple declaration of what we believe is right and wrong and our participation in the political and social arenas to see such standards codified and enforced.
The question that needs to be answered is whether the high standards of morality taught in Scripture have served society well. Has Christianity served to make individuals and societies better and to provide a better way of life?
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I'm not sure what morality has to do with what we're talking about, but I'll bite anyway. Examples of the high standards of morality in he Bible follow.
Do the Bible:
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Originally Posted by The Bible, again
"Take your son, your only son – yes, Isaac, whom you love so much – and go to the land of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains, which I will point out to you." (Genesis 22:1-18)
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Originally Posted by The Bible, again
Consecrate to me every first-born that opens the womb among Israelites, both man and beast, for it belongs to me." (Exodus 13:2)
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Originally Posted by The Bible, again
"Note also that any one of his possessions which a man vows as doomed to the Lord, whether it is a human being or an animal, or a hereditary field, shall be neither sold nor ransomed; everything that is thus doomed becomes most sacred to the Lord. All human beings that are doomed lose the right to be redeemed; they must be put to death." (Leviticus 27:28-29)
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At this point, I'm guessing that posting quotes from the Bible is moot, either because my point is massively proven or because you choose to ignore parts of your own religious text.
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Originally Posted by DaveMatrix
In a previous article I wrote briefly about the brutality that characterized Greco-Roman society in Jesus' day.{15} We often hear about the wondrous advances of that society; but do you know about the cruelty? The Roman games, in which "beasts fought men, men fought men; and the vast audience waited hopefully for the sight of death,"{16} reveal the lust for blood. The practice of child exposure shows the low regard for human life the Romans had. Unwanted babies were left to die on trash heaps. Some of these were taken to be slaves or prostitutes.{17} It was distinctly Christian beliefs that brought these practices to an end.
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No, it was Stoicism (again, that predated Christianity).
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Originally Posted by DaveMatrix
The Vikings provide an example of how the gospel can positively affect a people group. Vikings were fierce plunderers who terrorized the coastlands of Europe. James Kennedy says that our word berserk comes from their fighting men who were called "berserkers."{19} Gradually the teachings of Christ contributed to major changes in these people. In 1020 A.D., Christianity became law under King Olav. Practices "such as blood sacrifice, black magic, the 'setting out' of infants, slavery and polygamy" became illegal.{20}
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Remember what happened when Rome (democracy, republic, built roads, center of science and philosophy) fell? Europe fell into chaos. There was almost a thousand years of ignorance, disease, and Christianity. The Christian Church was the only centralized institution to survive the fall of the (Western) Roman Empire, and was partially to blame for said fall. I welcome you to read Gibbon on the subject, as I have. Have you ever read about how the Church Council of Carthage in 398 prohibited all Roman citizens from reading anything but Christian books (on penalty of death)? I'm sure you've also read about the death of philosopher Hypatia at the hands of the Christian mob. They hacked her apart, carried pieces of her up and down the streets of Alexandria before burning her remains. Maybe you know of Theodosius II's order to burn all non-Christian books? The last thousand years of scientific thought were burned to ash. {2}
Getting back to the Norse, Christianity destroyed almost all religious and historical texts of my ancestors, the Northern Europeans. Do you want to know why we can learn a ton about Zeus but almost nothing about Odin? Christianity went Nazi on Northern Europe and erased history, again.
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Originally Posted by DaveMatrix
In modern times, it was Christians who led the fight in England against slavery.{21} Also, it was the teaching of the Wesleys that was largely responsible for the social changes which prevented the social unrest which might have been expected in the Industrial Revolution.{22}
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HA! Curse of Ham. Look it up.
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Originally Posted by DaveMatrix
To go against God's moral standards is destructive to individuals and societies. In a column which ran in the Dallas Morning News following the shootings at Columbine High School,{24} a junior at Texas A&M University asks hard questions of her parents' generation including these: "Why have you neglected to teach us values and morals? Why haven't you lived moral lives that we could model our own after?"{25}
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God's moral standards include slavery, cold blooded murder, genocide, rape, child abuse, sexism, racism, classism, homophobia, and ignorance.
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Originally Posted by DaveMatrix
Contributions to Healthcare
Healthcare is another area where Christianity has made a positive impact on society. Christians have not only been involved in healthcare; they've often been at the forefront in serving the physical health of people.
Although some early Christians believed that disease came from God, so that trying to cure the sick would be going against God's will, the opposite impulse was also seen in those who saw the practice of medicine as an exercise of Christian charity.{26}
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My fingers are getting tired of being right.
The church has been against:
- blood transfusions
- transplants
- vaccines
- stem cells
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Originally Posted by DaveMatrix
God had already shown His concern for the health of His people through the laws given through Moses. In his book, The Story of Medicine, Roberto Margotta says that the Hebrews made an important contribution to medicine by their knowledge of personal hygiene given in the book of Leviticus. In fact, he says, "the steps taken in mediaeval Europe to counteract the spread of 'leprosy' were straight out of the Bible."{27}
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Only those practices predate the Bible by hundreds of years, again.
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Originally Posted by DaveMatrix
Of course, it was Jesus' concern for suffering that provided the primary motivation for Christians to engage in healthcare. In the Middle Ages, for examples, monks provided physical relief to the people around them. Some monasteries became infirmaries. "The best- known of these," says Margotta, "belonged to the Swiss monastery of St Gall which had been founded in 720 by an Irish monk; . . . medicines were made up by the monks themselves from plants grown in the herb garden. Help was always readily available for the sick who came to the doors of the monastery. In time, the monks who devoted themselves to medicine emerged from their retreats and started visiting the sick in their own homes." Monks were often better doctors than their lay counterparts and were in great demand.{28}
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How often were monks better doctors than their secular lay counterparts? ll you say is 'often'. Is that more than 50% of the time?
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Originally Posted by DaveMatrix
Christians played a significant role in the establishment of hospitals. In 325 A.D., the Council of Nicea "decreed that hospitals were to be duly established wherever the Church was established," says James Kennedy.{29} He notes that the hospital built by St. Basil of Caesarea in 370 even treated lepers who previously had been isolated.{30}
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Hospitals existed in Egypt hundreds of years before Christianity, and almost a thousand years before St. Basil.
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Originally Posted by DaveMatrix
In the United States, the early hospitals were "framed and motivated by the responsibilities of Christian stewardship."{31} They were originally established to help the poor sick, but weren't intended to provide long-term care lest they become like the germ- infested almshouses.
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The only people in America at the time were Christians or oppressed Native Americans.
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Originally Posted by DaveMatrix
There is much more that could be told about the contributions of Christianity to society, including the stories of Florence Nightingale, whose nursing school in London began modern nursing, and who saw herself as being in the service of God; or of the establishment of the Red Cross through the zeal of an evangelical Christian; or of the modern missions movement which continues to see Christian medical professionals devote their lives to the needs of the suffering in some of the darkest parts of the world.{35} It is obvious that in the area of medicine, as in a number of others, Christians have made a major contribution. Thus, those who deride Christianity as being detrimental are either tremendously biased in their thinking or are ignorant of history.
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There are nice atheists and nice Christians. Assuming that their creed has anything to do with their disposition is meaningless. When Mother Teresa helped people, she helped them. God didn't help them. When I volunteer for homeless people, I don't do it because I'm an agnostic atheist. I just do it.
1. http://atheistsunited.org/wordsofwis...dez/women.html
2. http://www.hermes-press.com/DAtruth.htm |