Politics What did Romney and the GOP do wrong?

um no, ace. you're not really close at all about me personally, it is not super-important: like lots of people i've made out ok in some ways less ok in others, but thinking politically based solely on your material situation is no different than thinking politically in order to piss off your mom.

i don't think neo-liberalism a rational view of either capitalism or the broader social situation in which capitalism operates. it delivers and can deliver almost nothing that it claims. and it is geared around short-term thinking all the way to its central index for thinking "ethics"==shareholder returns. so it's not sustainable, either on its own terms nor on broader ones. politically, conservatives who talk the neo-liberal line tend to carry shit for the republican party which is not particularly neo-liberal pragmatically--it just prefers to piss away vast amounts of money on the national-security state, the surveillance state, the prison complex. so the right is essentially a classic political machine, but one geared around an economic ideology that claims equality but results in increased stratification of wealth, and which prefers weapons systems to social well-being.

what we're seeing all around is political paralysis connected to ideological paralysis connected to a kind of cognitive paralysis not because everyone bought this shallow neo-liberal nonsense, but because it has been the lingua franca of the dominant political and administrative strata in and around the state. of course the financial sector in the main doesn't subscribe to that same ideology--they profit from it, but do not need to actually believe.

neo-liberalism reduces social and economic mobility. it undercuts opportunity for most people even as it comes with an mandatory blah blah blah about opportunity.

curiously, some of this isn't necessarily that far from what you say---but i don't see things as you describe.

for example, it's not a matter of a point so simple as "the game is rigged." of course much of the game is---but how depends on what you're looking at. and it's not as you describe with me either---not a matter of "having given up" whatever you think that means. it's not just a matter of cynical vs. more optimistic views that are compatible politically---i think your whole vision of capitalism is simply wrong descriptively, normatively, philosophically. the problems have been demonstrated over and over in reality, and in that strange way in which "demonstration" happens here, in this place.

and for the record, roachboy is much pissier than i am. it's the sentences. the strongest reaction i have to your posts, ace, is exasperation. it reads differently than that, but behind the curtain it's not.

 

Socio-economic systems don't make claims, people do. The claims made by people are subject to the issues people have. One issue is deception. For example anytime President Obama says he believes in free market principles he is attempting to deceive. those who buy into false claims have a problem, it is not a socio-economic system problem.

The interests of individuals by definition is relatively short-term. Your statement lacks clarity. Ethics are personal, you define your ethics, I define mine. In a broader social context your ethics or mine will be commonly accepted or not. If it is not socially accepted that ethics=shareholder returns then that ethic will hold less value or will have social costs.

What is? The better question is how does the socio-economic system adapt to change? Or, can it adapt?

Feel free to chew on that, the rest of your comments are more or less white noise figuratively speaking.

 

2) One does not have to be a mind reader to know when one is being subjected to deception. If you don't think President Obama uses deception in the promotion of his political agenda and to acquire and maintain political power, you have my sympathy.

1) I responded to what I read - if he wishes to clarify what he wrote that is up to him. If I misinterpreted what he wrote, the ball is in his court, figuratively speaking, to elaborate to enhance understanding.

 

Pick a view, will you. First, I am wrong, now I described every national leader in human history, including Obama.

If you read what I wrote, it is the use of deception that often leads people to erroneous conclusions related to socio-economic systems - which did not contradict Roach's point. If I want capitalism to be perceived as X, and I have the power to influence perception and X is not correct - that is not a reflection that capitalism is promoting X or is wrong, it is a reflection of my attempt to deceive!

Very few who hold political power truly believe in free market principles. It is the nature of those who seek political power to attempt to control and restrict the options of others.

Also there is much in between real free markets and pure communism.

 

yeah, ace---it is pretty obvious that you are making shit up when you position obama as any kind of leftist.

i'm not sure you know what an ideology is.

the idea that "individual interest is by definition short-term" leads me to wonder, against my better judgment, what definition? you mean it in the sense of that bromide "in the long run we are all dead?" i am surprised a neo-liberal would believe anything keynes said.

when you follow that peculiar sentiment with yet another repetition of milton freidman i loose interest.

on your last "point"---you do understand what the phrase "socio-economic system" might refer to, yes?

 

Ace, do you ever consider the fact that some of us are not looking to "win" the game? That maybe we abhor it, not because we're not clever enough to play it and win, but because we're not selfish enough to engage in a winner takes all process that, with every turn of its wheel, harms the earth, the environment, global economic stability, and most of all, other human beings?

 

What game?

 

Thank you. I assume it needs rules, then? Most games do.

Do those who play the game need any protection?

What about those who watch? Do they have to pay for the privilege? Is it entertaining for them? If not, why pay?

 

Why do you make comments like this? President Obama is a "leftist" compared to....me....many people. What does "leftist" mean - it is a relative concept. My cut-off for the leftist characterization is 5, what is yours? See what I mean, it is meaningless unless it is clearly and objectively defined. Feel free to tell me everyone, but me know exactly what you mean when you say "leftist" - it is just lazy and it is silly.

O.k., what is an ideology? Oh, I know your response, you are too superior upon high to engage in such a matter that is beneath you - I am wasting your time.

Time is relative to something, that aside - I tend to look at Maslow and his hierarchy of needs. Most people are well below self actualization and many simply look to fulfilling basic needs. This is short-term. Please stop insulting me with your superficial critiques - short-term because we are all going to die??? Wow!
--- merged: Jan 3, 2013 at 9:08 PM ---

then you know that it was just an example to illustrate a point. A point that had nothing to do with Obama. You are purposefully being diversionary.

 

Yes, I would say 99% are not trying to "win"/

I take issue with the use of the word "selfish" in your characterization. Different people make a choice to play the game for many reasons - in my case it is more about defiance. I despise the notion of being controlled, I rebel against that, I fight it, I engage in the game to overcome it. I realize most people I know, don't understand why I do it or why I am the way I am - heck sometimes I don;t understand it. Trust me, life would be easier if I just gave in - I often know it, but I can not do it.
--- merged: Jan 3, 2013 at 9:21 PM ---

It is not literally a game, it is more like the managing the realities vs. the illusions of freedom, free will, and choice. The US was founded on the principle of freedom and all men being created equal, in fact we are created equal and we should be free, but government or those in power do not want freedom and equality for the masses. Hence the deception and the illusion - in the US anyone can be whatever they want to be - it is a rigged game, it is almost true for no one. Those in power make those choices in most cases. Occasionally some are not willing to accept their pre-defined roles in the socio-economic system-most fail when trying to alter their lot in life- the game is rigged.
--- merged: Jan 3, 2013 at 9:26 PM ---

My example was not flawed, you ignore its context. It is clear from your follow-up post that you are being diversionary. I know it is purposeful because you continually ignore the context, even after it is explained to you.

 

This is pure b.s. - I have never called President Obama a communist nor have I ever implied it.

 

obama is a centrist in the clinton mode. more's the pity for all of us, really. a political spectrum encompasses a range of positions and the center tends to fall...um.....you know.....in the middle of the available positions. i am well to the left of obama. you, ace, are well to the right of a lot of people.

on the other stuff---i was busy earlier today.