Unwanted sexual attention in the US?

Zen Thanks for the response. I feel like I should clarify myself, because I was definitely getting emotional when I was typing that. The main reasons for my surgery were health related. My hands would go numb at the end of the day because the sheer weight of what my bra straps were holding up were cutting off circulation to my hands. My back was throbbing at the end of the day, and it hurt to stand up straight. But once I started discussing my decision for surgery with friends (mostly male), and the shocked and trying-to-be-funny-but-actually-pretty-gross responses I got cemented my decision.

I'm extremely happy with the results. I can wear clothes that fit, and I'm more confident. I'm healthier, my back doesn't hurt, and can run and jump and basically do so many more things than I could before. I don't regret it for a minute.

 

I think this really didn't get the attention it deserved, since it forms more or less the backbone of the point I was trying to make about the culture of female victimization. Yes, if a rape is committed it is most likely to be committed against a female if you exclude the (wildly disproportionately black & male) prison population, but on the other hand if a violent crime in general is committed it is equally significantly likely to be committed against a male, and per capita rates of victimization reflect these probabilities.

Or in short: while rape as a crime is more likely to committed against women less women are raped than men are murdered, and women are less likely to be raped than men are to be murdered.

The thing is, and this is part of what I was getting at (the other part being the sexist slant it usually takes), men have not created a cultural narrative based entirely around this victimization trend. The Female Victim has become so ingrained and pervasive that the idea of being perpetually victimized at all times by all things has practically become a facet of the american female cultural identity, despite the fact that they're disproportionately less likely to be victimized by a violent crime at all than the very "Schrodinger's Rapists" they're so perpetually afraid of.

At this point any healthy mind has to ask the hard question of why such a statistically unwarranted fear is pushed so hard, almost harder than Terrorism even, and why it almost always seems to take the same form as Terrorism Politics; The innocent We is victimized by the inherently and unchangeably malevolent Other. Even, or rather especially articles like Phaedra's repeat this pattern. Sure she hides it under a smothering tangle of disingenuous smiles and insists "of course not ALL men are rapists"... but when it comes down to it that's exactly what she IS saying, that all women are always victims, that everything is a victimization, and that all men are always a threat.

If women should be constantly afraid of "Schrodinger's Rapists" with the current actual crime rates then men should be pantshittingly terrified of ever coming outside of a private underground survival bunker. But we're not, because we don't distort our entire worldview around the false narrative that we're constantly being victimized and surrounded by dangerous boogeymen, we don't color every moment, every day, every interaction with the fear of other people being potential murderers.

 

Well, hmm. Maybe. With a couple of "but"s.

But ... if there IS this female victim narrative, the victims of it are ... women. It can be used as a way to keep "nice girls" off the street and "safe" when, paradoxically, taking over the streets en masse would almost ensure their safety.

And the other "but" ... rape statistics (both male and female) are about as "iffy" as statistics get. How many are unreported? How many fail to get to court or fail to be proven? It's a nasty mess with a lot of nasty politics and even nastier experiences (and people) surrounding it.

 

Where did you get the idea that women are constantly afraid of getting raped or that we regard ourselves as victims? If this is the case, who's washing the laundry, doing the shopping, cleaning the house, raising the children, providing income, holding political office, caring for the sick and elderly? Surely we'd be too frightened to come out our closets unless we were escorted everywhere by a husband, brother, father or boyfriend, as some Muslim women are. But we're not hunkering down, are we? Our world view is not distorted, is it?. Women don't make up the majority of gun owners and CCW license holders, do they? We get on with life, don't we? Despite the fact that 1 out of 6 of us are getting raped. I think it says a lot for our courage and strength. Us being the "weaker" sex, and all.

If your point is that too much is made of women's issues, maybe it's because they were ignored for so long.

 

I'm not accusing you two of anything and I am not passing judgment on either of you. I'm using you as examples of people whose attitudes and conduct are perfectly appropriate and acceptable. However, I think these two posts are a good indication of the reasons that a lot of guys on TFP don't fully understand the issue at hand. The vast majority are good people. Forget acts of violence and coercion, the guys posting in disbelief wouldn't knowingly act disrespectfully toward a woman in the first place.

Don't start patting yourself on the back yet, guys. The parallels to racism that mixedmedia made in this statement are exactly what I've been thinking as I've read

Racism is a good analogy because, at least in the US where slavery was a major issue in our country's history, we all (hopefully) get a primer on its history and the progress we've made. Are you not a racist? Do you think that racism is a bad thing? Great. You are literally putting the least possible effort into solving the problem. Institutional and culturally ingrained racism and cultural racism still exist (this study, for example.) You treat women with respect and would never knowingly or willingly act in a way that would make a woman feel less than safe. You see where I'm going with this; by not being a creep or a rapist, all you're doing is not being part of the problem. Our culture still puts women in a class subordinate to men. Our culture still blames women for the shit that men put them through, ranging from ignorant or naive failure to respect boundaries to outright, widespread victim-blaming.

Privilege is invisible to those who have it.

Crime doesn't count when the victims are black men, got it.

 

Seems to me, shadowex, that you really need to believe that all women are walking around afraid of being raped and feeling like perpetual victims so that you can continue rationalizing whatever it is that is motivating your extreme argument against women. You are the one telling us what women are how we think, feel, react, see the world. And yet you have several women on this thread telling you these things exactly. How very, uhhhhh, ballsy of you.

 

I've never had the problem of large breasts but I've always been aware of the problems inherent in having them. Had plenty of girlfriends who spent the good part of most evenings out having to fend off creeps and assholes. I'm also aware of the discomfort and health issues they pose and a big hats off to you for taking the huge step to remedy that.

And any guy who looks at you and sees only your boobs is blind. You are gorgeous.

 

The plural of anecdote is not data, mixed. Articles like Phaedra's and the hundreds of others, leaks like the agent orange files, they all provide empirical proof otherwise. Who's more extreme? The person that points out Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt and argues against it, or the people spreading it to begin with?

The only thing required for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing, both genders have fundamental problems of priviledge and cultural dysfunction. Neither respects the human rights of the other on a fundamental level... men tend to express this most often in rape while women in violent abuse, Women are disproportionately unrepresented in positions of higher authority men in positions of nurturing, men commit disproportionate amounts of crime while women are disproportionately leniently convicted of and punished for crimes.

Articles like Phaedra's promote more fear, mistrust, and division between genders under a disingenuous layer of faux-positivity, she doesn't offer a solution, her article is a symptom of the problem. That, Mixed, is why I have such a strong distaste for articles like hers and it's ilk. Martin Luther King Jr didn't focus on telling white people all the things they did wrong and trying to take them down, he encouraged mutual respect, understanding, and progress on both sides.

Don't make the mistake Mixed has and think that I don't I feel the same thing is as necessary between genders as it was (and still is) between the races just because I'm as vocally opposed to misandry as I am to misogyny. True equality can never be achieved by focusing on division and the "bringing down" of another and establishing a dynamic of conflict, it can only be achieved by "bringing up", by striving for peaceful coexistence. Sometimes the thought of that offends people, they can't accept anything outside of a "pro-woman" and "anti-man" dichotomy, and anti-maleness has been so ingrained in society that mere neutrality, let alone suggesting that something is misandrist, is often interpreted as an "extreme argument". I did point that out a page or two ago... for all male privilege the one that we don't have is the privilege of being able to shut down any viewpoint we don't like as being extreme or sexist without question or dispute.

 

Sorry, but I don't feel any reaching out to common ground. I feel a battle axe. You go to such lengths to portray the article posted as some sort of crazy ranting (without even accurately summarizing what it's actually saying) all the while talking about 'the culture of female victimization' which is a crock of reverse-victimization horseshit. You don't seem to have any interest in developing a sense of WHY women feel the way they do, you just want to negate it. Women do not live in nor do they perpetrate self-victimization, in fact, most of the women I know flourish and adapt despite misfortune, some of it wrought at the hands of men and some not. You're not going to find any common ground with me as long as you keep trotting out these tired, misinformed concepts about how experience shapes and motivates women. You don't have a fucking clue what it's like to be a female. What's more, you don't seem much inclined to care.

 

As I said, the privilege of shutting down any viewpoint you don't like as extreme, sexist, or "reverse-victimization horseshit". You've gone out of your way to attack me personally twice now, both times conspicuously failing to present any substantive counterargument to objective evidence beyond personal anecdote, which should be trivial according to your bare assertions as to how tired and misinformed I am. It's funny you say that you feel a battle axe, and that I'm going to lengths to misrepresent something as crazy ranting, because that's exactly how I feel about articles like Phaedra's and your responses.

And you're right I don't have a clue what it's like to be a female anymore than you have an idea what it's like to be a male, nor will either one of us ever know what it's like for the other. The difference between us is that I'm willing to tolerate a viewpoint that doesn't reinforce my own, or even challenges it, without cussing someone out and dismissing them on the grounds that their disagreement alone makes them wrong. If all you're interestedin doing at this point is throwing profanity and insults at me then I guess you're right, nothing productive is going to come of it.

 

I'm sorry. I fail to see how you have made an effort to do anything other than continue to promote a personal agenda on this thread. There have been many females participating here whom you have not acknowledged at all while you continue to tell us how our gender perpetuates a 'culture of victimization' when we are telling you, earnestly, how we operate and why. I take offense at that. So you might want to soak up the consequences.

No you haven't 'cussed someone out' and neither have I. But you have certainly dismissed viewpoints on this thread by essentially pretending that they don't exist or, as you say now, characterizing them as crazy ranting. So, why don't you get your off high horse and stop pretending that you're being the model of decorum here. Personally, when I read your first post on this thread, the first word that popped into my mind was: trolling. You have continued to misrepresent what was written in the article that you were so offended by as, no doubt, you are probably doing with what I wrote. You don't care how women feel you just want to 'reveal' some hidden secret about how dangerous we are. I know that there are cruel, ugly, vile, violent, dangerous women out there. But it has nothing to do with unwanted sexual advances toward women and nothing to do with how women transact with men on a normal, everyday basis.

 

On that last sentence you're right and we can agree, you'll find my response to the rest in your inbox or not.. Bringing the thread back on topic: From the point of view of someone who recieves it, do you think the offensiveness of attention could be improved with better manners? The difference between saying someone looks hot and is dressed lovely off the top of my head.

What I'm basically asking is: Is it possible for a man to pay sexual attention to a woman without being inherently offensive even in an impromptu/unsolicited situation, even if it's something outside of TE or those you have a close relation with. It's a significant factor, because depending on the answer it's entirely different areas of behavior to consider. If it's not possible then men as a whole will need to reconsider the entire issue of offering attention to women from the ground up to begin with while if it is then there's the immediate low-hanging fruit of teaching people some proper manners to improve the situation right off the bat. And, if it's a mixture, short of becoming a cold reader do you have any significant suggestions on how to take a chance in a way that while it may be unwanted will not be immediately offensive.

 

Well, I think you will get a lot of different answers to those questions from different women. Speaking for myself, it's not so much manners but a sense of just wanting to be left alone. It's not that I can't tolerate a man talking to me just because he is a man. But after 47 years on the planet, I can see the difference in facial expression and demeanor when a man is talking to me because I am another person in the room and when he is 'chatting me up.' I suspect that women are better at interpreting the subtle clues in behavior that belie these things. Which is why men are often surprised (and defensive) when women call them on it because they don't understand how we make these determinations. This is perhaps why men, for instance, need books on interpreting female body language - because it just doesn't come natural to them. Usually. Therefore, they miss the clues I am sending out that say, 'leave me alone.' That, and I do tend to believe that some men (not all men) feel it is their right to 'give it a shot' and that I shouldn't have a problem with it. Like this one dude at a club one night who I had a very brief exchange of words with in line for the bathroom who then continued to pester me all night despite my obvious disinterest. The last straw was when I was sitting in a corner talking with my daughter and her boyfriend only to have this guy lean over an adjacent railing and give me the 'come hither' finger. At that point, I was done. I turned my back on him and we got up and left the club - earlier than we wanted to. This kind of behavior is not abnormal. It's not crass, but I consider it rude. And I'm pretty sure that he thought what he was doing was completely within his rights, considering I had exchanged a few nice words with him in front of the bathroom.

I am older and I am crotchety and I am more possessive of my time and energy than I used to be. So some of the younger women here may have more tolerance for these kinds of things. I, really, just want to call out of the whole business and it's frustrating to me that I can't.

 

You make an interesting point about people thinking they have a right to "give it a shot", because I hadn't even realised that I pretty much operate under the assumption that if someone is in public and not reasonably-recognizeably discouraging contact they're fair game for interaction. But at the same time while initiating contact is something anyone does have a right to do, terminating it is ALSO something anyone has an equal right to do. To me that's where the world of difference in HitherFinger's behavior is; He didn't respect your right to terminate interaction with him, especially of a personal kind, which is outright harassment regardless of gender, content, or circumstance.

 

This is true, and why I qualified my statement with "reasonably-recognizeably", which I think should be taken into account in regards to your second statement since imho it's just silly to read it in a way that'd require telepathy. If you're discouraging contact in any way that is reasonably recognizeable then it's perfectly fair to say you've made it clear you don't want anything to do with anyone from the start and you've been intruded upon if someone tries. If I'm listening to music and staring out the window on the bus it's pretty clear I'm saying "Leave me alone" as opposed to affably smiling and making eye contact for more than a quick acknowledgment, where it's not unreasonable to attempt to strike up conversation.

But beyond the technicalities of signalling whether attention is discouraged or not in the first place I think the larger issue, especially pertaining to sexual attention, is working out an appropriate How. Even if everyone were to follow the best case scenario of respectfully starting interaction or not I'm not sure that there's ever going to be a case where people are not on occasion uncomfortable with how things go. The question is how do you reasonably minimize that? If you go all the way back to the OP it seems that that culture can be a big factor in that. I'm not sure whether the example Solaris mentions is indicative of a greater tolerance/acceptance of what I'd call boorish behavior, of if it's the exact opposite and it's found less bothersome because the women aren't considered to blame for those men's behavior towards them like they would more likely be here in America.