Unwanted sexual attention in the US?

Disclaimer: As a (multiple) sexual assault victim, someone who like Phaedra literally spent years of his life in fear of an imminent violent and brutal death and unlike Phaedra actually had to fight off the people justifying that fear on a regular basis I feel that by her own logic I'm somewhat entitled to make this post, and to not be cloyingly circumspect or disingenuous about the strong emotions involved.

Still, this is possibly going to be the single most controversial post I make here at TFP. Ordinarily voicing this opinion around "feminists" gets me accused of being a female-circumcising child-raping monster... by almost the exact same logic my political opinions get right threaded wingnuts to call me a terrorist loving socialist. So, please, before you jump straight to "he's pro-rape, he's anti-woman, he's a chauvinist, he's a sexist"... consider that it's perfectly possible to be utterly against sexism and for gender equality while still against the established narrative of gender relations, a point I actually address directly by the third paragraph.

I actually made it all the way to the church line before I had to stop for my own safety, I'm pretty sure if I hadn't then I would have ruined my keyboard by blowing a clot and bleeding out my nose if I read one more sexist cliche in that string of open bigotry about how all men are always rapists all the time and only perfect clean cut hair parted to the left Gallants should ever even think about attempting to ever approach, speak to, or THINK about a woman when in church, in public, in an open space, accompanied by his mother and both grandmothers, while handcuffed and blindfolded, with seventeen snipers aiming at his heart and only then with express written permission after passing full Yankee White clearance. This is of course completely justified since all women are always living in a state of fear of all men about being attacked all the time everywhere, the fear of it and steps to prevent it invade every aspect of every woman's life everywhere at all times, and all because all men ARE evil, so evil that one in six women is guaranteed to be sexually assaulted in her life.

Coincidentally that matches a statistic I can personally vouch, it just so happens that one in six men are also statistically guaranteed to be sexually assaulted at some point in their life, quite likely before they're 18. I guess Mr. Dobson was right and they are just raping everybody out there... Unless of course the statistics just don't ad up, like the 1-in-4-during-college statistic that doesn't hold up even with the own-claimed 90% unreported crime rate. I did my thesis on sex offenses, I'm familiar with the subject, I've seen the numbers. The reason that unreported rate keeps climbing ever higher is because the Fear Industry (the same one that delivers your daily dose of Terror) needs a way to handwave away the fact that in the last two decades alone the rate of all violent crimes (sex crimes included) has dropped so far so fast that it screws with your chart scale when you try to graph it, either looking like a negligible drop or damn close to a vertical line.

And you know why? Because hate and fear sells. Because it's easy. Because in the 24/7 news echo chamber that completely breaks our primitive monkey brain's ability to judge risk and proportion it's just too confusing to process that when it comes down to it you aren't actually surrounded by rapists all the time. And most of all because the ACTUAL solution is hard. And I don't mean "don't rape people", that's a politicized thought-ending-cliche, not an actual productive solution. No, what's just too damn hard is accepting the hard and ugly truth that some of the most heinous violations of human rights we have laws against have in fact reached or are right next to gender parity, and that we're never going to achieve true peaceful equality by trying to harm one another in revenge or in trying to shift all of the blame and all of the responsibility to one side as though this were some kind of homework assignment nobody wants to do.

The fundamental problem is not "men keep sexually abusing women" any more than it is "women keep violently abusing men" and people like our dear darling Phaedra seem to be trying their absolute damndest to make sure that everyone is too caught up in the us vs them zeal, in the 24/7 fear and sensationalism echo chamber, to realise that and do something productive. Our problem is that neither gender respects the inherent and inalienable rights we ALL have as sentient beings, whether it's men committing the majority of rapes or women being given a free pass on physical violence. Remove the cultural obsession with the sexual aspect of anything and you see there's no real difference between a rape and a brutal beating. They're both a physical violation that shows dominance and power, and they're both a fundamental lack of recognition for another's human rights. Step back in severity and you see the same pattern in different crimes, sexual harassment and less severe physical violence. Both of which are again a lack of recognition of another's right, the right of a woman to be secure from unwarranted advances and the right of a man to be safe from unwanted attacks.

Do I get ridiculously worked up about this? Yes. Could I probably have been more eloquent if I wasn't incredibly tired after having been up since 5am on the 31st? Possibly. Am I going to get accused of being a chauvinist, rape-supporter, or any number of other epithets for this? Anywhere else I would say yes but I'm expecting better of TFP. Do I think men need to change? absof#@%inglutely YES. Do I think that it's ALL on men like Phaedra's article suggests? Equally no. Do I also think women need to change for the same reasons as men? Same emphasis back to yes.

Martin Luther King Jr did not achieve what he did by preaching about the wrongs and evils of whites, and how to take them down, blame them, and hold them responsible for their crimes against minorities. He succeeded where others failed because his dream was of blacks and whites, jews and gentiles, the rich and the poor coming together as equals. He disapproved of all prejudice, all crimes, all wrongs, regardless of the color or status of the perpetrator or the victim. It's time for men and women to do the same.

 

She was a bit over the top with some of her comments and I can only guess that it's the extreme end of those comments you are reacting to.

I actually got something quite different from the article. There is truth to her assertion that most women carry around a level of wariness when it comes to strange men. Most women know that not all men are rapists and that in fact, most men are not rapists. Still, maintaining a healthy wariness when walking down dark alleys or traveling alone rather than remaining blind to any possibility of danger, keeps people alive.

If you took Phaedra's overall point as being one where men are the enemies, you may have possibly missed the real point. Some men are dangerous. Trouble is, they don't wear signs around their necks announcing their intentions. It doesn't mean a constant, unreasonable fear of men is at work, it just means women...no wait...all of us are instinctively on guard looking for signs and signals that the stranger who has just addressed us or come into our space is "safe". The ability to interpret these signals quickly and effectively is one of the reasons we have survived so long as a species.

It's possible that woman are the more wary gender but I doubt that's true. I think men are equally if not more suspicious of strange men, though probably not out of fear of potential sexual assault or rape.

It's not a feminist point of view Phaedra is putting across. It's simply an explanation of what might be going on in woman's mind when you or any strange man approaches her. It's also a request that you show some understanding and respect for her if she decides she wants to be left alone.

 

I think you are misinterpreting what she wrote. She didn't say that all men are rapists.

Rape has been a device used to dominate and oppress women for all of human history. I think it's pretty safe to say that a certain trepidation when it comes to dealing with men, particularly strangers, is hard-wired in the psyche of women.

I'm sorry that you've been through the trauma that you experienced. Many of us have been through similar trauma. I was sexually molested as a child and seduced by a corrupt adult as a teenager, two of my children were molested, one of my aunts was molested, one of my nieces and one of my nephews was molested, my sister was beaten and raped...and those are just the ones I know about. I think anger or even irritation at what is a very legitimate fear for women to have is, frankly, misogynist. In a sad an ignoble way you could say that we have earned the right to at least be suspicious of the men that we meet. Some women are, some are not. One is not smarter or more enlightened than the other. My feelings on this topic mirror, to a great extent, my feelings about racism. Just because we had the civil rights movement and the word nigger isn't bandied about openly in public, doesn't mean that racism no longer exists. And just because men don't travel around in bands 'raping and pillaging' wherever they go, doesn't mean that women no longer have anything to fear from them. Obviously.

 

But relationships with men who might be rapists don't just happen spontaneously. Everyone is a stranger until they are no longer. I agree that the tone of the article is hyperbolic, but the essence of what she is saying, I believe, is true for most women if not at all times then at certain times in their lives. If there is a woman who has managed to make it into adulthood without ever suspecting the intentions of a man in their presence I haven't met her. I think this is a significant aspect of being female that is frequently minimized by men because they, themselves, know that they aren't a threat. I understand that that must be frustrating to some extent. But once a female reaches puberty (and unfortunately sometimes before she reaches puberty) she realizes that she has become a sexual commodity that is, to some extent, free to any male with a pair of eyes. I have very clear memories of being a just post-pubescent teen and feeling threatened by grown men looking at me and, sometimes, saying things - because sexuality was frightening to me. Do I think they were all rapists? No. I think most of them were normal, law-abiding if slightly classless men. But, whether we like it or not, these sorts of feelings stay with us into adulthood and they color our perspective and the way we deal with the men who are entering our lives. It is absolutely true that it is usually men we have put our trust in that abuse that trust. But it is neither possible, nor I think, desirable to never let men get close. It's just a risk we have to take after measuring the results of our preliminary instincts and evaluations.

 

This is the big unspoken problem with dating in the modern world now too. It should be part of the discussion of this thread:
the free market has never been so free... | The TFP

The Schrödinger’s Rapist article is interesting and makes some good points. But, I worry if there is never a good place or time to meet a girl in a safe place, the only guys who will get with a bunch of girls will be the ones who break the rules.

So, genuinegirly how afraid of me were you when we met and you showed me around campus at night? Did you think I was a good person and safe?

Now, I do support severe punishments for perpetrators of sexual violence. And I get that women should be on guard and paranoid about quite a few guys. And every police department should be proactive in preventing this crime, and catching the criminals. But, society has to help these guys not need to be rapists in the first place. Either lifestyle improvements, better relationships, more stable relationships, more security when in public places, and healthier views on sex and dating.

 

Borla, in any new situation we are reliant upon our instincts. (That goes for all of us. Not just women) Reason comes later. Knowing that 90% of all rapes and sexual assaults are committed against us by men we know has no effect on the instinctive assessment process we employ in situations with strange men. Men are men. Some are dangerous. Scope them out, no matter who they are. Upon sharing a bottle of wine later with the guy with the gang tattoos who is now walking towards me down a dark street late at night, may reveal that he is a complete angel but there's no time for that. A judgment has to be made, and quickly. I assess the potential for risk and act appropriately. It's all very ancient brain.
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Obviously there are good places and times to meet girls. Men and women hook up all the time, have relationships and get married. A woman's initial wariness of you only lasts until she's sussed you out as not being a danger to her. What happens after that is dependent upon whether or not she's attracted to you.

 

I have known many good men in my life. And those men are usually ones with whom I feel comfortable very quickly - largely because they treat me like a whole person from the get-go.

And, for the record, there are men here at the TFP whom I have interacted with for years and I am comfortable with the occasional mild flirtation. It doesn't irritate me or set off my creep-o-meter. I am not as comfortable with it coming from newer members or those with whom I haven't really interacted with - because I don't think it's appropriate and for other reasons. Friendly flirtation among comrades in a group is a normal part of camaraderie building and it can make me smile just as much as the next chick. I'm not real easy with the flirtatious comebacks, though, that's just not my style unless I am romantically involved with the person. But men that I know here at the TFP throwing me a verbal wink or a nice compliment doesn't bother me. Just wanted to make that clear, my friend.

 

There are men out there devoid of empathy, but I think the vast majority of men do have it. I think that we have all known situations where we have been well aware that a woman is afraid, or at least wary - of us.

We may be walking down a quiet street late at night, 25 yards behind a lone woman and we know that she is wondering who is behind her and is formulating strategies, just in case. We may get into a subway carriage and find ourselves alone with a woman. Or maybe she is at a bar at the end of a long day and, when we smile (in an attempt to reassure) we can see we have alarmed her. I know that I have been there and I have attempted to allay the fears (take an alternate route, get off the carriage, pcik up a newspaper and sit well away from her .. whatever). That doesn't remove the fears, though.

One thing I can share, and I don't know if it helps, is this. One of the reasons we (i.e. men) know about that wariness is because we share that wariness.

Every man has been in a situation where he is unsure of the intentions of another man. Every time we go out, we are "on alert". If we walk through a darkened, quiet area or a subway we become hyper-vigilant. Hell, walking through a busy bar to go to the toilet is sometimes a risk. It becomes lesser as we get older, but it's still there. Young men (18-30) are at greater risk of violence than almost any other demographic - and, sadly, are most likely to be the perpetrators too.

This may sound odd, but we are even more vigilant and wary when we are out with a woman - probably because we feel responsible for her too.

In case you think I am over-stating things, I have had my cheek broken, various black eyes, split lips and so on. Most guys I know have had a beating at some time in their lives. My son was beaten badly a few years ago (because he stepped in to defend a woman who was being attacked). Here are some before/after pics of the beating (and, believe me, it looked worse when I got him to hospital and before he'd been cleaned up!).

Before:
After:

Now, I don't say this because I want to make light of the fear women feel, far from it! I don't even want to claim parity on behalf of men. What I want to do is to say that we should all be able to understand that sense of wariness. We all experience it to some degree.

There are bad people out there, for sure. However, we can also BE people to be feared. Even after knowing all this stuff, very few of us consider ourselves a threat and can easily assume that nobody else could see us as one.

However, that isn't so. We can, and will, be seen as a threat.

There's that time when, after a few drinks, you chose NOT to back off - thinking that, if you just kept talking she would see that you're no threat. Didn't work. Live and learn.

When I read the article posted, I felt uncomfortable. I was annoyed at the assumption that men don't know that stuff. I think we do - kind of. However, we sometimes behave as if we don't know. I also think we don't fully know.

All the article is really discussing is respecting other people's boundaries. If a 200 pound testosterone-filled gorilla sets boundaries, we tend to pay attention. The same should be true for a 100 pound female. We know that, don't we? Sure we do. So, why do we see people who behave as if they don't? A reminder is needed, I guess.

 

I just wanted the folks here to know that it's cool. I didn't want to give the impression to the men of TFP that I am creeped out every time they say, nice photo! or joke about sexual things with me. Even though I don't 'know' know most of you, I feel comfortable enough in this venue to joke around and, obviously. share intimate aspects of my life, personality and, uh, other things. If someone makes a comment and I don't feel comfortable about it because they are not familiar to me or the tone of the comment was inappropriate, then the most they will get from me in most cases is silence. A cue that I wish more men knew how to pick up on.

 

i recall topless women at the beach ever since i was a youngen when my parents would take us to Bondi Beach during summer. They stopped taking us there by the time i was around 7 and decided to take to us to more family orientated beaches.

In saying that, toplessness on Aussie beaches are ok, but toplessness anywhere else is not.

 

Thanks Borla. I'm very proud of him and yes, he was fine (though he had his nose broken again since then and has since had it re-straightened). He is currently in recovery from heroin addiction - another battle that I believe he is well on the way to winning.

He's a good young man and I love him desperately.

 

Alistair, all my best to your son. I'm hoping he has another victory in sight, soon.

 

Wanted or otherwise, if the young lady in Joniemack's video walks by and I'm not paying attention, CPR is probably in order.

Keep in mind, many guys are simply clueless at reading minds determining interest. I'd still be single if my wife hadn't hit on me.

 

Plus infinity.

Hmmmmm. Just had a brainflash: You and Jonie = team. Therefore your son has got one of the best wing-men and wing-women I could imagine.

 

To me, this is one of those "can't define it, but know it when I see it" situations. Two different men could say the exact same thing to me, but depending on the person and how it is said, it can determine how I feel. If I'm being looked in the eyes by someone being sincere, "You look nice tonight" will make me blush and stutter out a thank you and a smile. But if it's someone who gives me the slimy chills, slides up next to me unnoticed, doesn't make eye contact with anything but my cleavage, "You look nice tonight" would make me want to go take a boiling hot shower for an hour.

I think I'm an OK looking woman, but still got attention throughout my life for having large breasts. Like, comically large. Picture, for science:

Please ignore the duckfaces, it was our first year of college.

So yes, for those that don't know, if you have large boobs, everyone feels the need to inform you that you do, which gets extremely obnoxious and unwanted. In addition to the health issues and the fact that I couldn't find clothes, this was a factor in the massive breast reduction I had last Christmas (36 I, approx, to 36DD). I was tired of others thinking I looked like I was desperate for attention anytime I wasn't wearing s baggy sweatshirt.

To me, the most unwanted form of sexual attention is when the person giving you the attention acts like they're doing you a favor by letting you know "how huge your tits are" or telling you "I like the way you fill out your shirt, can I take you somewhere to talk?" because I might not look like I get complimented a lot. Right, I don't have a huge amount of self confidence, so you think I'm going to swoon when you compliment me. I get your twisted logic. But when I politely decline, don't get offended because you didn't expect me to fall on the dick of the first guy nice to me that night. Don't physically trap me in a corner. Don't call me a stuck up bitch. Don't call me a slut (really? I don't want to sleep with you and you're calling me a slut? Nice). You trying to hit on me by staring down my shirt isn't making my night awesome. It's making me send SOS signals to my friends on the other side of the room. I'm not going to adjust my self worth all because a skeezy guy wants to sleep with me.

 

Hi GeneticShift I read your post and felt flash fury.

You got shape changing surgery done to you. At no point did you mention a wish to reduce back-strain or other direct postural-health reasons for reduction. You used "Comically large" in your initial description.

Your life is your life and your story is your story. My fury includes axes I've been grinding for a long time. Therefore I profoundly apologise for any slippage between the following rant and your experience, your history.


There was nothing comical about your breasts.
You, and they just got surrounded, overwhelmed by fucking jokers.
Painted with the echo of their overwhelming letch.

It was not your problem except that it had been forced so.
They objectified you unacceptably. You got rid of the objects.
They had cut you once too often, therefore you took the knife to yourself to make it stop.


And I apologise on behalf of all with hearts to care how you feel and must have felt for years.