Trayvon Martin.

I haven't posted in this thread because, well, my stance on the manufactured hysteria of another black teen getting capped for no reason is pretty obvious: I think we should line up snooty middle class college kids in hoodies and shoot them with AK variants. If he'd been capped by a jealous Latino kid and had his Air Jordan sneakers taken off his still-warm feet, we wouldn't be pissing our pants shouting about the tragedy, now would we?

I'll be the first to admit I'm a dummy when it comes to politics, basic arithmetic, understanding the proper use of the ellipsis, socioeconomic issues that have created the race gap and all things that deal with the M.C. Escher-style legal system we have in the United States... but then there's this:

Wrong. (Thread)

Also, since it was mentioned somewhere halfway through this thread:

There is no such thing as a "warning shot" outside of stupid cop shows and bullshit action movies. Rules of Engagement / Rules of Use of Force / Rules of Lethal Force have changed to reflect that Main Street, USA (TM) isn't Europe in 1941, the Wild West or a Jean Claude Van Damme flick.

/gun babble

 

I agree there is no such thing as a ""warning shot", there is only one type of shot. Regarding the "shot gun urban myth", everyone has choices. Just like the sound a rattle snake's rattle, my next step is with caution when I hear it - when I hear the "click-click" of a shot-gun my next step is with caution. You are free to step the way you choose.

However, the key as it relates to the Trayvon matter is that at some point in the face of a real threat, a gun holder would/should be expected to let it be known that he/she is armed and prepared to shoot. In the face of even a "click-click" from a 9mm, a reasonable (not on drugs, normal mental state, etc) unarmed man would stop a charge. I again repeat in this case self-defense/SYG is not applicable.

In fact, if some here want to continue their SYG argument, perhaps it is best to pick another case. The facts in the Trayvon homicide just don't fit with the arguments being made against SYG.

 

I apologize for the threadjack but I'm a little tired of people that know as much about firearms as I do archaeology talking about how to use them.

Protip: Weapon manipulation noises are not a self defense measure. They are the metal-on-metal byproduct of an unnecessary escalation of force.

If you rack a weapon, it's because it wasn't loaded or because you're posturing to initiate a gunfight. You should alert people with your voice.

Also: What's it like being a burglar psychic? I bet it's about as awesome as betting your life on a metal-on-metal noise.

Just sayin'.

As far as you statement regarding the incremental steps one should take when out and about and confronted with lethal force: bullshit.

If someone comes up to you and presents lethal force (a knife) you should shoot them twice in the chest, not try to talk them down.

You are not allowed to skin your pistol because someone calls you an asshole, bumps you in a 7-11 checkout line, is black, etc.

It's a dangerous world out there. This Zimmerman guy sounds like a retard. The cops / legal beagles sound like bigger retards.

I hope that the evidence-based no-shit truth comes out in court. I also hope that if Zimmerman was playing vigilante that he gets repeatedly assraped by large African American males in one of our fine state penitentiaries. I hope the media coverage is full of raw emotion and totally devoid of reason.

This whole played-up emo fap-fest has about as much to do with guns as an automobile has to do with a DUI crash.

I'm also hoping we get lots of kneejerk legislation. Y'know, kinda shit that makes me wanna move to Canada.

Rwanda
No Hoodies, No Coverage​

 

Your view smells of theory to me. Weapon manipulation sends a clear message.

I would not bet my life, but I will exhaust available options and if that means a "weapon manipulation", you bet I do it. Why wouldn't you?

You say, bullshit without offering an alternative.

Or, not let it get to the presentation of lethal force. If a statement can prevent an altercation or escalation, you suggest not making that statement??? If a guy presents a knife and I have a gun, I let the guy know I have a gun and will shoot. Perhaps, I am too kind.

Who said you could?

 

Your view smells like you didn't bother reading the thread I linked. It's 11 pages, sure, but it's got some good stuff in there.

Now I know how Roachboy feels.

It's not necessary.

Your only task with a weapon is to identify a lethal threat and respond with lethal force. Your voice should be used for all other tasks.

If the weapon isn't loaded and leveled with a flashlight ready, you might as be holding a baseball bat.

Kind = dead.

Famous study demonstrated that a man armed with a knife within 7 yards can stab you before you observe, orient, decide and act with your pistol.

I won't bother linking it. You won't read that either.

...

Any time you're in the area, stop by and we'll talk about lethal force.

 

You're labouring on this point again, as though I don't understand it. So, I'm going to lay it out a bit more clearly for you. You think there are never cases involving SYG that belie perfect clarity. I get it, no ambiguity. It is also obvious that, as a matter of polemics, you're not going to admit that you're wrong about this because when that point falls much of what you've tried to say in this thread about how the law is not the problem, goes along with it.

It's not that I don't understand, I do. It's also not that I'm just trying to win the argument. It's that even in my most charitable assessment, the nicest thing I could say about your claim is that it simply does not align, in any meaningful way, with reality. It is, in a word, asinine. We wouldn't have a 10+ page thread about it if it were So Fucking Obvious the the law is not at least part of the problem. More than that, it's fine. I really don't care if you want to keep right on pretending that the law could never be a problem and there could never be any cases that are not perfectly clear, but you need to realise that as long as you continue to do so I (and I suspect a few others as well) don't have any reason to take the case you're trying to make seriously.

 

I am reading what you write here. I am aware of the pros and cons of shotguns for home self-defense purposes. You take the position that the "click-click" of a shot-gun is of no significance - if that is what you think, that is fine. All I know for a fact is how I would respond. It is true I can not predict how all others would respond, however, I know probabilities shift with that sound.

I am not saying what is necessary, I am making a suggestion. I outline some logical steps to take and rehearse. Practice is the best way to prepare for a stressful situation. You have not shared what you would do, what you rehearse?

That is a cliche. Again, I know what I would do. If I am in a situation and feel it is a threatening situation that can escalate, I let it be known I am armed. I would exhaust all possibilities before actually using the gun or firing a shot.

We are not on the same plane. If a guy has already pulled a knife, I agree with you. My preference is to act before it even gets that far. And I don't let threats get that close to me. Even if i where involved in a potential fist fight, I don't let someone get that close without being prepared.
--- merged: Mar 29, 2012 at 3:22 PM ---

Given an example. We can look at the facts of a particular case and go through it. I think in every case we can make a clear determination.
--- merged: Mar 29, 2012 at 3:28 PM ---

Preparation is not stupid. Developing a routine is the point. With a routine, you go through the steps. You pick those steps for a reason. If a step in the routine fails, you still follow the routine as best you can - because you build in redundancy - i.e. go to a safe place (already planned), phone 911, - again you don't say what you would do, you don't say what your plan is!

 

Right. Ignore that if you want.

My aunt in her late 70's currently has had a gun in her nightstand for as long as I remember. Once she got pissed off at my cousin, she went and got her gun and went "click-click", everybody shut the "f" up real fast and slowly left the room.

 

That sounds like a great update on the old "Road To" movies. Which one of you is Bing Crosby and which one's Bob Hope?

Actually, which one's the closeted homosexual toddler and which is the gin-swilling dog, in the current venacular?
--- merged: Mar 29, 2012 at 3:53 PM ---

Nice example of irresponsible gun ownership. If she got the gun out and racked a round, she should have been prepared to pull the trigger. Otherwise, she's just being a bully. I'm assuming that your aunt isn't in prison for manslaughter, so I think it's a fair assumption that she just wanted her way regardless of the consequences.

 

You're like the father my father never was. Don't ever stop.

 

I grew up in a working class community where I would not say crime was pervasive, but when things happened, people were not surprised by it. As a teenager, me and my buddies we knew who carried guns and not even talking about a "click-click" or brandishing, if we saw one of those guys we avoided them. I remember once getting involved in an argument on a basketball court, one of my friends grabs me and says I need to drop the issue right now. Later he told me. I was in my 20's in the 80's, when the crack epidemic started and peaked. I lived in the LA area in the 90's when gang violence peaked. You folks scare me, because it sounds like you would have no respect for the risks you would face. Ignore the "click-click"??? You can hold whatever opinion of my posts you want but you have not walked in my shoes, I am moving away from this.

 

Look way up the in sky, Ace. See that tiny dot just on the other side of the Moon? That's the joke. It apparently went so far above your head that it acheived escapce velocity. Really the only question is whether or not it will escape the Sun's gravity well. I'd say there's a good chance considering how much you missed it by.

Personally, I'd pay matinee prices to go see you two in "Road to Mazar-e-Sharif", but there's no way I'd buy any popcorn.

 

I like to make "PEW PEW PEW PEW" sci-fi laser gun noises at people who make me feel uncomfortable. Don't nobody sit by me on the bus.

 

I know, right?