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The works of J. R. R. Tolkien

Discussion in 'Tilted Entertainment' started by Baraka_Guru, Mar 25, 2014.

  1. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    I'm about to start a reading of The Silmarillion coupled with listening to recordings of discussions on each chapter. I posted this link above, but here it is again: The Tolkien Professor | Silmarillion Seminar

    I'm not saying you should join me in reading this, but you should join me in reading this. :p
     
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  2. snowy

    snowy so kawaii Staff Member

    I can do that.
     
  3. Levite

    Levite Levitical Yet Funky

    Location:
    The Windy City
    It's interesting that he emphasizes how people apparently tend to feel bogged down in the details of the Silmarillion, or are apparently bewildered or turned off by the construction of the Silmarillion text as "remote" and "archaic."

    To me, I in no way found the former offputting, and in fact found the latter appealing. I have always felt this way, and never realized that so many people felt otherwise. And I had to think about this for a while, to sort out why it should be so.

    Upon reflection, I believe that my reaction-- apparently atypical-- comes from my having been raised on having considerable portions of the Tanach (the Hebrew Scriptures) read to me (in English translation) as a small child, like any other stories. So I became accustomed at a very young age to stories often involving considerable detail, complex genealogies, archaic modes of thought, and a more remote style than modern novels.

    But then again, I am an only child, without cousins, and most of my closest friends have been the oddball quirky ones in their families. So I really kind of don't know how it works for other people. Do you guys think that this kind of early exposure to classical styles of narrative can make such a dramatic difference, or does it really ultimately just come down to some people having an affinity for certain kinds of text and others not so much?
     
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  4. snowy

    snowy so kawaii Staff Member

    @Levite, it's like you're asking a nature v. nurture question about books; if our reading styles and preferences are anything like human development, then it is a combination of both.
     
  5. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    @Levite

    If anyone was brought up like me, they weren't encouraged much to read, and sometimes they were ridiculed for doing it.

    I don't recall being read to as a child. I remember beginning to learn how to read shortly before kindergarten, but I learned most about reading/writing at school, not at home. Home was mostly focused on other pursuits such as listening to music and watching television. We had books in the home, but not many. I don't think I've ever seen my mother or father read a book—only the local paper.

    My guess is that many of the younger generation have a specific aversion to (or have difficulty with) certain books due to complexity. Why are young people intimidated by old novels? They're more literate when it comes to other media. The focus has shift to multimedia, away from text. A 12-year-old today might be more comfortable with designing a website than reading The Silmarillion.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2014
  6. snowy

    snowy so kawaii Staff Member


    This is so, so untrue. This is the line that the lists of bestsellers want you to believe. Many of my students read and enjoy very complex, classic novels. I would say roughly 30-40% of my students are what one would call avid readers--and who is an avid reader is sometimes impossible to pick out. There will be at least two surprises in any class. I would say a remaining 30-40% are active readers; they read, and they enjoy it, but it isn't their no. 1 pastime, unlike the avid reader. The remaining 20% fit into what you suggest.

    I've had a surprising number of students tell me, "Oh, I'm so excited to read (enter classic novel here)!" Every time I'm gobsmacked--and happy!
     
  7. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    This is likely to vary school to school, community to community. My SO's school is likely the same, but I think it would be largely a demographic variance. I'm basing some of my thoughts on an article I read about how it's becoming increasingly difficult to get kids interested in novels written before the 20th century, partly because they're big and partly because they're more complex in terms of language, character, and plot (compared to many mainstream novels kids would otherwise read). Sure, many kids are going to like Jane Eyre or what have you. But then you're also going to get a lot who'll be all, like, "Mah gawwwwd....! Do I have to read this?"

    I'm also basing some of my thoughts on the countless times I've alluded to or referenced a book that I figured many people have read (or at least would know about) only to realize they have no idea what I'm talking about. Now I tend not to talk about books unless it's with a confirmed book lover. If I didn't work in publishing, or know a lot of intellectual/artsy types otherwise, I'm not sure I'd know that many "readers."

    Then we come back to The Silmarillion, which, by definition, isn't a novel and isn't even a collection of stories in a contemporary sense, but rather historical/mythological narratives. I think that kind of thing is dry to many contemporary readers. Tolkien seems to have aimed for a particular style for these works, and a part of that was probably meant to exude a kind of archaism, and that seems to have resulted in anachronism. However, perhaps that was his intent. Unfortunately, that will alienate a number of readers.

    As for the kids who read this old stuff and enjoy it, that's great. It gives me hope that the written word isn't dead. And I'm sure you'd be gobsmacked if one of your students were to tell you they absolutely loved Ulysses, which is basically Joyce's Silmarillion. :p
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2014
  8. Levite

    Levite Levitical Yet Funky

    Location:
    The Windy City
    To be fair, I have had a number of students over the years find that they love encountering new literature, and they do read novels, short stories, etc., and do not just spend all their time online or playing video games. I might actually have as many or more who love literature and read as who merely tolerate literature/reading and prefer other media.

    I will give you, though, that I have yet to meet a kid who takes to Joyce. I myself couldn't make it through Portrait of the Artist As a Young Man until college, couldn't make it through Finnegan's Wake until my late twenties, or Ulysses until my thirties, and I confess I found it hard going even then.

    I am filled with sympathetic horror at your description of being discouraged to read when growing up, @Baraka_Guru. Mrs. Levite and I are both deeply passionate about literature and writing, and some of our earliest conversations when we knew Little Levite was en route were about reading to him and encouraging his verbal and literary development. I can't imagine an upbringing that is indifferent or even shuns reading and books, and I feel terrible for you. You deserve so many kudos for developing the thoughtful and literate style you now have!

    @snowy, I think your suggestion that it is a nature/nurture question as to whether people exposed to classic narrative styles when young grow to appreciate them more or whether it is innate to certain people is a good one. I suppose you're probably right, which means we may never really know, as it is likely to be some combination of the two.

    But in any case, I do think Tolkien was quite deliberate about creating an archaic style, in tone if not in precise detail, and I do think he was fairly clear that either people would like it, or they wouldn't, and he was not at all interested in trying to "persuade" people to appreciate his writing. He was very much a purist, and wrote chiefly for his own satisfaction, which goes a long way toward explaining why it took so long and was so difficult for him to get published before the success of LotR. I have to admit, I like that about him, though. He really was dedicated to his art, and I just always love anyone who takes the attitude of "this is who I am, this is what I do, and if you don't like it, fuck you." Or at least the polite Oxford don version of that. I have a major streak of that myself (surprise, surprise), so it makes me love Tolkien all the more to see how much he had it.
     
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  9. spindles

    spindles Very Tilted

    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    I love to read, I read to my children, I encourage them to read and they love to read too. That seems like a fair bit of nurture to me :)

    Back on topic - I'm thinking I need to revisit the Silmarillion - I haven't read it since high school. Maybe, like snowy, I need to add a hard back to my collection (the copy I originally read was my brother's and it is a badly dog eared paperback).
     
  10. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    On the topic of the physical copies of the books, my copy of The Silmarillion is an old, beaten-up paperback. My copy of The Hobbit is the same, but I recently acquired a gently used hardcover edition (albeit with a missing dust jacket). My copy of The Lord of the Rings is one of those single volume paperback editions with a smaller trim size that should never be produced because they virtually self-destruct when you read them. Sure enough, the spine is broken in a few locations, and the cover has almost completely decoupled from the glue on the spine. I'm in dire need of new editions, but it will have to wait for now.
     
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  11. snowy

    snowy so kawaii Staff Member

    I just always keep an eye out for attractive additions to my collection of editions. My husband doesn't mind my Tolkien habit.
     
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  12. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    I tried reading The Silmarillion on my tablet, but I think the ebook file I have was converted from mobi to epub, and all the characters with accents were changed to question marks. It's not the kind of book you will enjoy when throughout you read things like Ilúvatar and Manwë as Il?vatar and Manw?.

    It's a bit too much.
     
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  13. Levite

    Levite Levitical Yet Funky

    Location:
    The Windy City
    I have two copies of Tolkien's major stuff one paperback for reading in bed or traveling, one hardcover for armchair reading and reference. I do also now have the big three on my Kindle, and I don't think I've had major issues with that.
     
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  14. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    I also have this for my office/den/study/mancave (plaqued, of course).

    Unforch, I haven't hung anything up in the "new" place yet, so it's currently sitting around wrapped up somewhere.

    [​IMG]
     
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  15. spindles

    spindles Very Tilted

    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    My Hobbit is a paperback I picked up in a second hand book store. My LoTR is 3 volume hard cover with illustrations by Alan Lee. I picked this up on sale for about $10 brand new *many* years ago. My wife has the matching single volume hard cover (they are sitting next to each other on the book shelf. The original copy I read was a paperback also my brother's and it has long since fallen apart through overuse!
     
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  16. snowy

    snowy so kawaii Staff Member

    I have The Two Towers in the illustrated hard cover, but not the other two. I picked it up at a booksale for $2. Quite the find. I will get the other two eventually.
     
  17. Levite

    Levite Levitical Yet Funky

    Location:
    The Windy City
    My hardcover LotR is a beautiful single-volume edition bound in red with colorful designs and runes, made to resemble the Red Book of Westmarch. I got it from my late grandmother, who knew how I adored Tolkien, as a gift upon graduation from college.
     
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  18. snowy

    snowy so kawaii Staff Member

    Pics!
     
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  19. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
     
  20. Chris Noyb

    Chris Noyb Get in, buckle up, hang on, & be quiet.

    Location:
    Large City, TX
    I see many of the more common Tolkien books in my searches at resale shops & thrift stores, but not Silmarillion. If I find a nice edition for a good price--HBs usually run me $1.00-$2.50-- it's yours. I have a very large edition of the triology bundled into one book. I bought it because of the larger print for my poor eyesight, but honestly I don't know that I'll ever read it. Ya want it?