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The debates on the Debates

Discussion in 'Tilted Philosophy, Politics, and Economics' started by rogue49, Oct 2, 2012.

Page 6 of 17
  1. Joniemack

    Joniemack Beta brainwaves in session

    Location:
    Reading, UK
    Keeping his head up was necessary to prevent dribbling his water into his lap.
     
    Joniemack, Oct 12, 2012
    #101
    • Like Like x 2
  2. Random McRandom

    Random McRandom Starry Eyed

    [​IMG]
     
    Random McRandom, Oct 12, 2012
    #102
  3. Joniemack

    Joniemack Beta brainwaves in session

    Location:
    Reading, UK
    [​IMG]
     
    Joniemack, Oct 12, 2012
    #103
    • Like Like x 1
  4. Aceventura

    Aceventura Slightly Tilted

    Location:
    North Carolina
    Neither President Obama or VP Biden presented any compelling reason for four more years. Their refrain is getting ridiculous:

    "Our opponents are going to cut taxes" - O.k.
    "Our opponents are going to change Medicare" - O.k.
    "Our opponents are would have let GM go bankrupt" - O.k.
    "Our opponents think abortion is wrong and won't force others to pay for it" - O.k.
    "Our opponents won't give specifics on their budget" - actually understanding that a deal has to negotiated - O.k.
    "Our opponents think the "47%" not paying taxes is a problem" - O.k.
    "Our opponents won't give us everything we want" - O.k.
    "Our opponents think there is a problem with slow job growth" - O.k.
    "Our opponents think we should be held to account for our deficit spending" - O.k.

    President Obama is indifferent and VP Biden is GD made about it. Four more years, four more years....Right! Does anyone know what their plan is for the next four years?
     
    Aceventura, Oct 12, 2012
    #104
  5. roachboy

    roachboy Very Tilted

    roachboy, Oct 12, 2012
    #105
  6. Tully Mars

    Tully Mars Very Tilted

    Location:
    Yucatan, Mexico
    Other then a bunch of platitudes like "we going to cut taxes and close loop holes. Reduce the deficit and debt. Make improvements in education. Become energy independent. Make the country safer. Fix medicare and S.S. " All without giving details what is team Romneys plan?
     
    Tully Mars, Oct 12, 2012
    #106
    • Like Like x 2
  7. Aceventura

    Aceventura Slightly Tilted

    Location:
    North Carolina
    I fully understand that President Obama may get re-elected and I would like to know what he is going to do different to get results. More important than who I vote for, is security for my family (financial and national security my top two concerns). If you know the President's plan, what is it?
     
    Aceventura, Oct 12, 2012
    #107
  8. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    At first I thought it was undisciplined and discourteous for Biden to respond that way.

    But then Ryan kept opening his mouth. I suppose that was expected though. That's what he was there for. But still.

    I think I tuned in at an awkward time. The debate had already been underway several minutes and Ryan was actually talking some sense even though I wasn't very amenable to his position.

    It just went downhill from there. Biden kept laughing. After a few more exchanges, I started to laugh along with him.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2012
    Baraka_Guru, Oct 12, 2012
    #108
  9. Random McRandom

    Random McRandom Starry Eyed


    yeah... I'm scratching my head trying to figure out how anyone can call foul about Obama's plan when we have yet to hear anything other than "We'll fix it. We promise, just vote for me and my yacht mates" from the Romney ticket. :rolleyes:

    Ryan was completely out of his league on this one. I don't know if people will actually see the truth behind the lies now, but it ought to worry people.

    And no, I'm not saying the Dems don't lie either. They are just as good at the art, but Romney/Ryan seem to be taking it to a whole new level.
     
    Random McRandom, Oct 12, 2012
    #109
  10. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    I think the term mathematically impossible came up more than once. In the past, I have thought of that very term while listening to what the Tea Party/Libertarian folks harp on about as ways to save the country.
     
    Baraka_Guru, Oct 12, 2012
    #110
  11. Aceventura

    Aceventura Slightly Tilted

    Location:
    North Carolina
    Reduce spending.
    Grow the economy.
    School choice.
    Develop US energy resources.
    Prevent an Iranian nuclear arsenal.
    Reform medicare and SS for future generations.

    Are all items that can be fleshed out in great detail based on a principled outline. What is the President's principled outline, can you describe it?

    I recall several coast to coast road trips I have done. What was my plan? My plan was general - I am not a person who plans every bathroom stop - because I know better! Are you suggesting that you would and that anything less means a person won't get to their destination? The best detail plan in the world, gets changed immediately upon implementation of the plan. This liberal talking point is ridiculous and made worse by their defiance in offering any plan of their own, yet alone a detailed plan.
    --- merged: Oct 12, 2012 at 4:24 PM ---
    1) If it can not be done, we know what Romney will do. He will not use tax cuts to raise the deficit.
    2) It can be done with the correct amount of economic growth.

    Why do we ignore these two points? Is it because President Obama told some to turn off the thinking process, and some have done it?

    Either way what is the President Obama plan?

    And, speaking of Canada, what was the Canadian tax cut? How is the Canadian debt looking now, about a year later? How is it projected to look? Do you support increasing Canadian tax rates?
    --- merged: Oct 12, 2012 at 4:25 PM ---
    What is President Obama's plan? Let's discuss it!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 19, 2012
    Aceventura, Oct 12, 2012
    #111
  12. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    We don't ignore these points. I don't know what gave you that idea. The issue is that we look at precedent and we know that Romney's (i.e. the Republicans') ideas don't work as intended.

    We then look at these points and think:

    1) Romney may do what Reagan did: raise taxes. But there is no guarantee. Probably not, since Obama is more like Reagan than Romney is.

    2) In theory it can be done with the correct amount of economic growth, but it's a huge gamble because there is little evidence that it will work. Keynesian economics has a much better track record. Whatever you call Romney's amorphous plan is untested or otherwise rooted in past failures, depending on what shape it takes when or if it rears its ugly head.

    He has nearly four years of policy under his belt and he has outlined certain plans such as taxes, etc., but I'm sure he's more or less selling what he's been selling this whole time. He's trying to weather a long recovery.

    As the Atlantic put it recently, perhaps it's a decision between Obama's weak record or Romney's worse alternative.

    If I were voting, the choice would be obvious.

    Funny you should mention it. Recent news indicates that the deficit for 2011-2012 will be 10% higher than estimated. Also, revenues were 25% lower than the Conservatives forecast. Our net debt-to-GDP ratio is still the lowest in the G7; however, this has far more to do with past Liberal legislation and budgets than anything else. Corporate tax revenues are up 5% despite the lower rate. The rate was reduced to 19% in 2009, 18% in 2010, 16.5% in 2011, and 15% in 2012.

    What does this all tell me? If I had to guess, I would say the lower corporate tax rate is good for corporations but indifferent or problematic to working Canadians depending on each individual's situation.

    Would I support raising corporate rates back towards the G7 average? Yes. If would help shave off the deficit in a time of need. But I'm not that concerned about the deficit at this time. I'd be more concerned if we were posting deficits at the top of the business cycle.

    But Canadian corporations are sitting on stockpiles of cash. I guess that's nice.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2012
    Baraka_Guru, Oct 12, 2012
    #112
  13. roachboy

    roachboy Very Tilted

    the frightening thing about contemporary conservatism in the states---apart from its neo-fascist political core---is the extent to which it legitimates stupidity and disingenuousness. against a backdrop of stupidity and disingenuousness, conservative ideological propositions no longer have to maintain the pretense of coherence. they maintain familiar statements and a snippy obstinance. that's it. there's no other there there.
     
    roachboy, Oct 12, 2012
    #113
  14. Tully Mars

    Tully Mars Very Tilted

    Location:
    Yucatan, Mexico
    More plans with no details.

    And nice story about your cross country trip but I have to ask did any of your trips involve setting out across country in a gas guzzling SUV, no credit cards and $100 to your name? Because that's the kind of math team Romney is currently selling.
     
    Tully Mars, Oct 12, 2012
    #114
  15. Aceventura

    Aceventura Slightly Tilted

    Location:
    North Carolina
    what gave me that idea, is the repetition of the talking point about the numbers not adding up and Romney not being specific. Reasonable people understand that a "20%" tax cut proposal may not end up being a 20% tax cut. It might be 15%. It might be 10% for some and 25% for others. It might mean a nominal 20% marginal rate reduction and some getting that rate cut actually paying more in taxes.

    What is past, is not as important as what is to come. I believe President Obama can do some things to improve the economy assuming he adapts and has learned some lessons from the past. And if Romney was all over the place in terms of his policy positions in the past but is now focused, I can give him the benefit of the doubt. So, I am very interested in what is to come.

    Nice to see you are consistent in your views. My assessment is that the Canadian economy is doing better than most G7 economies since the recovery in part due to their tax policy and that Canada is better positioned for future growth than most other G7 countries due to their tax policy. Time will tell. I think it would be a mistake to raise rates in this economic environment. the nice thing about free societies and democracy is people can disagree and votes matter.
    --- merged: Oct 12, 2012 at 7:16 PM ---
    Need a translation, please.
    --- merged: Oct 12, 2012 at 7:25 PM ---
    That is what I would consider an adventure. Being adventuresome can be the most fulfilling things a person can be. What you outlines requires creative thought in order to accomplish the goal. I think it can be done. Don't you? Perhaps the first step would be selling the SUV to get more cash. Or, perhaps one could offer a fee for service scenario using the capacity of the SUV to generate cash, pay for gas and expenses as one progresses across country. I guess you would get hung up on the "plan" and just stay your butt on the couch and watch others embark on adventures. Is this really your nature. If so, I suggest doing something a little crazy just once and tell us how it works out. I got one, try voting for Romney - and let's see what happens in the next 4 years. My bet is that it is going to be a good 4 years.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 19, 2012
    Aceventura, Oct 12, 2012
    #115
  16. redux

    redux Very Tilted

    Location:
    Foggy Bottom
    The Biden Plan for Dummies:

    Reduce spending - Americans overwhelmingly want BALANCED spending cuts (including defense) AND tax increases on the wealthy
    Grow the economy - based on trickle down policies that have failed in the past rather than investment in infrastructure, energy development (other than oil), education, R&D
    School choice - vouchers for private schools as opposed to Obama's charter schools and public school choice
    Develop US energy resources - more of the same unbalanced approach of drill, baby drill and subsidizing only oil/gas at the expense of developing alternative energy like the rest of the industrialized world.
    Prevent an Iranian nuclear arsenal - US boots on the ground?
    Reform medicare and SS for future generations - privatize

    You left out
    abortion - take away women's choice
    health care - uninsured dont die, they can always go to emergency room

    Which of the above have popular support, Ace?
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2012
    redux, Oct 12, 2012
    #116
    • Like Like x 1
  17. ngdawg

    ngdawg Getting Tilted

    What?? Is there a reason you feel the need to toss around 7 syllable words? English, please...
     
    ngdawg, Oct 12, 2012
    #117
  18. Aceventura

    Aceventura Slightly Tilted

    Location:
    North Carolina
    I love the KISS method and do not find it offensive.

    Is there any point you find it wrong to destroy an unborn fetus/baby? Do you support late term abortion? Should those be illegal?

    Or, they can not spend hundreds on cell phones and buy a some form of at least a catastrophic or emergency care health insurance policy.

    I think the country is about evenly split in total on most of these issues.
     
    Aceventura, Oct 12, 2012
    #118
  19. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    Ultimately, it comes down to the numbers. If revenue drops and spending cuts can't keep up with that, then taxes will perhaps have to be raised. I don't ever discount the importance of the past. Perhaps we can still learn many lessons from Reagan, and even G. W. Bush.

    We've discussed this before. Much of Canada's stability is due to a more mixed economy compared to, say, the U.S. economy. (Also remember that income taxes rates in Canada are comparable to the U.S.) This includes more comprehensive regulation of industries such as banking and finance. It includes universal health care. All of these things contribute to Canada's stability on all levels. To attribute our position disproportionately to our corporate tax level would be quite silly, considering the changes are only recent.

    Any future growth will only require small thanks to the corporate tax rate. Ireland's corporate tax rate is only 12.5%. How has that been treating them? Well, they're looking at 14.8% unemployment (Canada is sitting at 7.4% compared to the U.S. at 7.8%), and while I don't think what they have is technically a double-dip recession, we can probably at least agree that their GDP growth has virtually flatlined.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2012
    Baraka_Guru, Oct 12, 2012
    #119
  20. redux

    redux Very Tilted

    Location:
    Foggy Bottom
    Stupid is as stupid does


    I support Roe which the Court, with one additional conservative justice, could (and would likely) overturn making any abortion effectively illegal

    Further, federal family planning (not abortion) funding and women's access to contraception prevent abortion....eliminating these programs are counter productive


    and go bankrupt after exceeding plan limits, but bankruptcy is better than death, right?



    I think not.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2012
    redux, Oct 12, 2012
    #120
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