sex and female assertiveness.

I also think it is different. Dirty old man doesn't have the same connotation now that it did in, say, the 1950s.

I just don't like the label. I bristle at people ascribing a set of assumptions onto me based on a few spurious facts.

 

I never understood why people would take an issue with older women seeking younger men. Given that men often have their sexual prime at a younger age than women, it seems like a natural match.

There are older women, however, of the "cougar" demographic that are over-the-top in their assertiveness. I can see how some approaches resulted in awkward situations that quickly developed into a reputation for the entire group.

Also, the way @MSD described his date, I'd consider it inappropriate behaviour. When a man is assertive in his approach and goes in for the first kiss with an unrelenting grip on her hair, it is looked at as forcing her into it. The same should be true the other way around. Unless of course it is crystal clear beforehand that the other party wants the kiss.

What's the rule for guys? Lean in 90% of the way and let her do the other 10?

 

You are not alone in that sentiment.
Labels are helpful on medication and soup cans--on products. We need them to communicate, I know, but people are much more layered than simple labels. Honestly, I've always detested labels.

Probably the label or "name" I hate most is "stupid." I don't even like "dumb blonde" because it assumes that yellow-haired women are ditzes.

 

Can you describe over-the-top assertiveness?

I get your point with the kiss thing. But, you know, I've had tongues thrust down my throat that I did not want there and as long as they break it off when I pull away, we're all good. No harm, no foul. It's when people can't take no for an answer that you run into a problem.

Me, I would never do that, either, I am not that kind of assertive. (Although I don't think there's anything wrong with it.) My assertiveness takes the form of a very frank, up front detailing of what I'm about. 'Hi, my name is 'mixedmedia.' I am not looking for a committed or monogamous relationship. I am looking for interesting men to hang out with and possibly have sex with. Want to meet for coffee and see if we hit it off?' Usually a little more charming than that, but that's the gist of it.

 

One of the hottest come ons I was ever on the receiving end of was, "I want to take you home and fuck you."

It was well-received.

 

I would receive that well, too.

 

1. How do you feel about women who pursue sex with men outside of committed relationships?


2. Does a woman's sexual assertiveness affect whether you would consider a committed relationship with her?

3 .Has your opinion of sexually assertive women changed over the years? For better or for worse?

4. Do you think that female sexual assertiveness is immoral? Is it a danger to society?

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1. I think that women should be able lead whatever sex life they find comfortable. I mean women who are comfortable with themselves, not women who think that sex is necessary to keep a guy interested (even if the woman wants to keep it casual). Her free choice, so to say.

2. Yes, or at the very least, probably. I've never been aggressive in pursuing sex, or 'juggled' several sexual relationships at one time. I'm not sure what my thinking would be regarding keeping a realtionship going knowing that she was also sleeping with other men. NOTE--I don't think that this makes me a "moron."

3. Yes, for the better. I was raised with the idea that 'good girls don't sleep around.' Over the past 3.5 decades (me at 18 to me at 53) attitudes towards womens sexuality have changed. Slowly, yes, but thankfully they have changed. Yes, this response clashes with my response to 2, I admit to have mixed feelings.

4. No, and no. There is no reason why women should be held to a different standard than men.

One thing I'd like to add from my male perspective--I would definately want to know from the start, or at least before the relationship reached agreeing to have sex, what the deal was. Finding out about the others partners after sex, or just before the sex, wouldn't be cool with me.

The above leads to an interesting question--Is a woman under any obligation to tell her partners about her other partners?

Edit--Please forgive the numerous typos.

 

The Tao of Love comes to the same conclusion. Its an analytical/social stance I will always take. However, it doesnt necessarily bode well for the continuation of the species, nor does the older man/younger woman equation.

This is exactly why I dont appreciate the term. I like women, I am a woman, so of course I identify with my sistas and see us as whole beings, much broader than this current characterization.

Yep!

 

Thanks for replying to the thread, Chris.

I don't talk about my other partners while I am with someone, but I talk about it in the beginning. There is no expectation of monogamy for either of us. I know that at least one of the guys I see on a semi-regular basis (and there are currently just 2) has sex with women other than me. And that's fine. We practice safe sex. We get tested. We enjoy our freedom.

Is a woman under an obligation to tell about her other partners? No, I don't think so. Do men tell the women they sleep with about their other partners? I would think in a non-committed sort of set-up a person should ask if they're really curious or if they are concerned about STDs. People do have some responsibility to take care of themselves.

 

MM, I appreciate the thanks. When I read the thread yesterday I hesitated to reply because I wasn't sure that my thoughts as a guy married for 26+ years and monogamous for 28+ years would have any meaning.

Obligation to tell? I think that depends very much on the people involved. Some guys won't care, others will. If a woman has a feeling that not telling will cause future problems, she should let the guy know, let the chips fall where they will before things get (potentially) complicated. I don't mean details (unless the woman & the guy get a sexual charge out of it), just something simple & straightforward, such as, "We're getting along well, and I want to sleep with you. You know that I'm dating other men, and I want you to know that I'm having sex with them. I have no plans to stop, and I need to know if this is a problem for you."

MM, and the other TFP ladies, I have a somewhat personal question. Please ignore it if I'm being too nosy.
If you seeing & sleeping with a guy in a casual relationship, how do you handle it if you meet one of his close friends who is available and you are very attracted to the friend? I don't mean ripping his pants off at the first chance, not that there is anything wrong with that, I mean the possiblity of having a casual relationship with both men, and guy one knowing about the friend. I ask because I can see some red flags, but of course once again a great deal would depend on the people involved. I've also seen some romantic triangles among friends turn really messy, even when all parties at first agreed (in theory as it turned out) that it was "no big deal."

 

Well, I can tell you that I would not become involved in a situation like that. One of my guys does have a roommate and he is very cute and similar in temperament and attitude to his friend (he has a beard, too! ) but that would be outside of the realm for me. Realm of what, I don't know. It just wouldn't feel right.

As for the obligation to tell, I don't think they have an obligation to tell. I mean, if a woman tells you they want an uncommitted relationship then that implies that she is free to do as she likes. To be clear, I'm not talking about traditional dating here. This is the sort of thing where everyone talks about their expectations up front and no one gets hurt. That's the way I play at least. It's working thus far.

 

Yes, being upfront is what I mean. For me, I would want the other sexual relationships mentioned, no details, but that's just me.

What I see in my head doesn't always show up in what I write. I was frequently told throughout my education, "Think about it before you write it, then write it, then step away for a while and put it out of your mind, then come back and read what you wrote."

 

I gotcha. My only observation is that you should not rely on her ( or him, depending) to be candid. You need to ask if it matters to you. Me, I don't ask. Not necessarily because I am not interested but because I don't want to set a precedent that plants a seed of doubt. They are free to carry on their lives as they like. I don't require their monogamy. I love writing that because it is true. Freedom.

 

Do you mean the woman and the men are all NOT in any committed relationship? If yes then isn't it great! I would consider that liberating, learning, adventurous life. Add some spirits, smoke, intellectual discussion - it could be spiritual as well. If I get there some day for some reason I only wish I meet people of that kind.

Yes! An assertive woman or friend is much easier to share time and activity with. I find passive aggression hard to handle. I am weirdly mixed between introvert and extrovert. So the other half being assertive could be great gift.

I think there is lot of change. better or worse - depends who reads my below details
When I was 20, my cousin told me our neighbor (~35) asked him to play. She was married with two kids. My cousin was a flirt. I was very proper with her. She never spoke or did anything sexual with me. So I just treated her as always. I told myself all that matters is how she is with you.
If she had approached me, I would have abused her at that time. I was very cocky and stupid.
Now I think anyone could ask anyone to play. If you don't want just say no thanks!
Today I am 40. If a 18yr old girl or 55yr old woman asks me, I will politely say "No Thanks" and yes I will say that with a smile not frown.

MM, I have a theory about what is right and what is wrong. It is the intent and cause that determines what is morally right and wrong.
If the interaction is between people who are not in any committed relationship it can no way be immoral.
Now if a woman is doing it to a man in struggling marriage... That could be argued to be immoral.

 

My description was tongue-in-cheek, by the time she grabbed my hair it was pretty clear that we wanted to kiss each other. I guess you had to be there to really know what I mean, I'm glad I was.

Maybe it's the generation gap between us, but the default assumption is that you're not exclusive until you say you're ready to commit to each other as such. With that comes all the individual bits - assume there are other partners, be willing to accept it if they're seeing someone else and decide to see them exclusively, and once you're exclusive, keep using condoms unless you've waited 6 months minimum, tested clean, and are another birth control method

 

The generation gap is definately a factor, in a general sense. For example, MM & I are close in age, but we disagree (respectfully) on whether or not to mention other partners. I respect her position of telling only if need be, while I would want to know even if the assumption that a non-exclusive casual relationship meant having other partners.

Maybe if I was younger (or even unattached at my age) I would feel differently. Forgive me for using a cop out cliche, but it definately applies--It would depend on the circumstances.

My thoughts are: If it works for you, and everybody is on board, enjoy your freedom. It's your life to live as you wish.

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I know from my reading here and on TFP 4 there are TFPers who are happy in monogamus relationships. It would be interesting to read their thoughts.

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MM, you mentioned dating but not in the traditional sense. I'm not sure what non-traditional dating means.

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Curiousbear, I think that this discussions means people who are single, as in definately not married, and not in a committed realtionship.

I do agree that there would be moral issues if any of the folks involved were married. Some married people intentially seek 'no strings attached' affairs. That's not something I agree with, but marriage can be very complicated I've known guys, and women, who would prey on those having marital problems. For the most part once the the predator 'got some' they would leave the vulnerable stranded. This discussion would make good (separate) thread!

 

My position is not exactly 'telling only if need be' it's that if you (or anyone) have just met someone and are dating them without any sort of commitment to seeing each other exclusively, then you need to ask if you want to know if they are seeing other people. In other words, it would not be their fault if you just assumed that they weren't seeing other people because they didn't tell you up front, you find out they are seeing other people and you get hurt.

There are lots of folks here in monogamous relationships, but that's not really what this thread is about. In fact, it's not really about relationships at all so if we want to go that route it will definitely require another thread.

In my case it means, essentially, no dating. We don't go to movies or restaurants or go to each other's houses for dinner. There is an initial 'date' where we meet somewhere for coffee or cocktails so we can size each other up and decide if we'd like to take it further. But once established, we meet-up, hang out and talk a little while, have sex and go our separate ways. More like the fuck buddy tradition. Therefore, not expecting monogamy or commitment is pretty much a no-brainer. But even in traditional dating, I don't think there is necessarily a commitment to reveal that you are seeing other people if there is no agreement of exclusivity.

 

Thank you for the explanation, some things are now much clearer in my limited mind. In a situation where the parties were very clear on what would be basically a sex-date-only relationship, there would be no need to ask or tell. I can see where the curosity to know, for whatever reason, could be considerred inappropriate.

As for the input from those who enjoy monogomous relationships, I mean that I would be interested in their responses to the original four/five questions.