Occupy Wall Street

It's interesting to note that a lot of the OWS supporters on this site assume I was inherently against OWS from the start.
--- merged: Nov 20, 2011 12:43 AM ---

Yea, but all of them ASKED for something specific.

 

my brother went to the boston occupation with a list made up of 5 elements. it was a mixed bag of ideas, but he was pleased with them. he had to do something else in town and wanted to see if he would be allowed to read his list. but he got distracted by a cbs van and asked them if this was where he might launch his run for president. they told him to get in line. it's possible, though, that while he was walking around with his list that he could have been interviewed and become a "representative" of the movement too.

it's not that hard to get a sense of what the debates are about in most of the general assemblies. those debates are not like that list. there are at certain points similarities between one point or another on the list, but thats about it. but if you want to know, its not that hard to find the information. follow one of the occupation streams on twitter.

 

I recall a quote from MLK, Jr. (letter from Birmingham jail) about the march on Birmingham that effectively started the civil rights movement:
"The purpose of direct action is to create a situation so crisis-packed that it will inevitably open the door to negotiation".

 

The majority of those protesting as well as those of us supporting the movement don't need it spelled out. Those who the protests target as well as the politicians who prop them up, don't need it spelled out either. I think it's been stated to death, here and elsewhere.

Economic and social fairness - you can parse that however you like.

 

Let me get this straight. In one post you claim the OWS protesters are asking for all kinds of crazy commie type demands and few posts later you state they're not like other protest movements in US history because protesters in the past asked for specifics?

Dude, which is it?

 

"Admin Note: This is not an official list of demands. The user "bchang1987" who posted this speaks only for themself, not the movement. This website would never in a million years endorse a list of demands of the 1%"

The protester who posted that list is just as much a voice for the movement as any other protester.

​

 

So is every bat shit crazy tea bagger then too.

 

OK

No, I am criticizing the "vocal" minority that complained about losing the propane tanks because they were illegal, I am criticizing those protesters with attitudes that believe that person losing his/her job because business went south due to the protesters interference with the business, look at the guy not as someone who lost a job in a horrendous economy and may not find one but rather as someone who truly doesn't matter. "He lost his job, big deal. You want to take the propane? Fuck you."

No actually, I applaud them going after the economic inequality that has allowed the rich to get richer.

Exactly, again, there are too many protesters that I see and hear worried about charging their I phones and laptops and act as if they are "entitled" to such things. One here defended that as "they need to communicate", well, that lady that just had to close her store down because you drove her business away because she wouldn't let you use her john, won't be able to pay her bills next month. She's got 3 kids, so how is she going to feed them? Yet, you the protester who worries about a fucking I phone or laptop, act like that isn't your problem. Your protesting and blocking her business caused her to lose her business and you are worried about propane and charging you electronics? And you say "well she needed to sacrifice", and what did you sacrifice?

I don't. They volunteered to be out there. they have people walking by giving them donations. They should KNOW and be prepared for what may happen to them. They know it's going to be cold, they know food may be in short demand, they know what could happen when the police come, THEY VOLUNTEERED TO BE THERE. That lady DID NOT volunteer to have her business closed down and to lose everything because they wanted to picket in front of her store and drive business away. It's not her sault, so why punish her and when she closes down, say aw well.

It would be easier to "put myself in their position", if they were showing people like that a little more sympathy and not long ago there were reports that the OWS didn't know how to use all the monetary donations. Why not offer people who lost their jobs/businesses some of that money.

When someone loses a business it is very hard, then to see it was lost because of these protesters who didn't give a damn that they interfered with the business cry about losing the ability to charge their electronics when next month she and her 3 kids may not have a place to live is a hard pill for anyone to swallow. Then to have these people tell her that she lost it all for a good cause, is icing on the proverbial cake. Are they putting themselves in HER position when the cry about losing their illegal propane tanks and can't charge their laptop?

I just don't see why that is acceptable behavior. But it seems to be.

No one asked them to volunteer. I went a couple times and I prepared myself for the worst, if I got arrested, this was who I could call. The people were friendly enough, but I was not willing to or able to spend the night due to my health, otherwise I would have. I was prepared to sacrifice my liberty and whatever I needed to, to be heard. Thankfully, the only time I saw police was to ask people to stay on the sidewalk and not block traffic. Are there worse incidents with police? Yes, but not while I was there. I was told what businesses I could do business with and which ones to boycott. Funny, the businesses that were to be boycotted because their potty was for customer use only were the ones we were directed to stand in front of. So they couldn't do business. That's a fact.

So while there the mentality became us vs them... who was the "them" the shop keepers who wouldn't let us go potty in their establishment. In Cleveland, I watched a 50 year old woman driven to tears because she had to close down her business, that had been in her family for 40 years. NOT ONE protester helped her. I knew her personally because her ex and I went to the same 12 step meetings.

At first she allowed the protesters in and then she caught a few stealing from her and she said no more. IT WAS HER RIGHT, but the group think was screw her she won't sacrifice her restrooms to us, we'll show her. And they did. That was selfish cowardice behavior and affected more than just the protesters and the 1% they are supposedly fighting.

And that is ok?
That is acceptable?
Not to me. What was being done was criminal. especially when some there were complaining that they were unable to charge their laptops and phones.

this I just answered above.

To me if you are heartless enough not to care if you drove a woman to tears and cost her the family business and then bitch and moan and complain that you can't charge you f'n phone, you don't belong there go home. I promise to show you the same sympathy and empathy you showed her.

 

Nope. Tea Party has a clear set of goals, a strategy and leaders put in place to effect political change.

 

Just casually strolling through the park:

 

You can't claim the movement has no clear agenda and claim the agenda they have is completely crazy at the same time.

 

I never said that ows has no agenda.

 

here's a short james fallows piece on that heroic action by davis law enforcement:

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/11/pepper-spray-brutality-at-uc-davis/248764/

the stupidity of these actions is amazing to me.

 

Well, I could go find some bat shit crazy tea bagger comments for you but why feed the troll? There's no logic in wasting my time.

 

eddie, dear, you might as well just admit you think there's no agenda if you sense of it comes from tools like bill fucking whittle. it'd be more honest. jesus.

 

Thanks for that last post, Pan. I really couldn't see where you were coming from and felt that you were making broad statements that I didn't recognise.

In answer to your questions above, no. That isn't acceptable in my eyes.

I won't defend every action by everyone at OWS demonstrations. That would be silly.

I do support the general principle and do believe that things need to change. I also believe that we need a debate around what sort of civilisation we want to live in going forward. However, tactics matter. Where they go wrong, it needs to be acknowledged and corrected.

 

I've always stated that I believe ows has a clear liberal, socialist agenda.

 

In the tea party, they made all the batshit crazy people the leaders. Hence, Michelle Bachmann.

 

Since we are pasting up isolated images (which is OK as long as we don't lose sight of the bigger picture), let's see the 84 year old woman pepper-sprayed in Seattle.



http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/nov/18/occupy-movement-iconic-image-martyrdom

 

you would be better off, eddie, were intellectual honesty of any importance, to say you don't know what it is, or to claim there isn't one.

btw the fallows piece i posted earlier is an effort to situate the youtube clip of students being pepper spray in davis. it's no longer an isolated image.