Occupy Wall Street

Significant protest movements often start as acts of civil disobedience by a small group and while those particular acts may devolve, more often as a result of police over-reaction, they can also evolve into a larger movement.

One only need look at the civil rights movement and the "bloody Sunday" march on Selma or the early Vietnam war protests. Both sparked national movements that grew to rallies of hundreds of thousands at "permitted" national events that changed the course of US history.

Will these "unlawful" acts in NYC lead to a greater movement? Too soon to tell, but I dont know that the national passion exists as it did in past movements.

 

Redux, if you were down there, what specifically would you be protesting for/against?

 

Then you can answer the questions I posted? Excellent. I await your response with bated breath.

 

The ones you replied to:

I'm totally on the same page as you in that I agree they do not currently have a permit. I agree with you, they do not currently have a permit. I'd like to know why that is. Have they applied for one? Are we still waiting on the results of the application or was it denied? Or have they not submitted an application for the permit? The answer to those questions gives us a better understanding of the situation visa-vi your concern about their permit.

 

I think I should probably make one thing clear: in my opinion, applying for a permit is a courtesy. It's a courtesy extended to local law enforcement and a sort of nod to the existing power structure, a way of essentially saying, "We'd like to change things, but we respect you and we're willing to play by your rules." However, protesting has not always been freely allowed by existing power structures here in the United States. I'm not old enough to remember living through it, but I have a black and white picture of police firing water at protesters fighting for racial equality burned into my mind. I have images of police beating people fighting for their civil rights. I was alive to see the advent of the "Free Speech Zone", a nightmarish violation of the Constitution.

Is protesting without a permit illegal? Yes. Does that make it wrong? Not necessarily. Could police be abusing peaceful protesters if there was a permit? We've certainly seen that, most recently at the RNC. Could traffic be affected negatively even if there was a permit? Yeah, absolutely.

You've chosen to really concentrate on the permit issue, and I'm glad to go down that road with you, but I wanted to make my position more clear. I don't see their lack of a permit to be a particularly big deal. I'm more concerned about what the protesters are there for.

 

I would be protesting for fairness for the middle class...Main Street v Wall Street...the public interest v corporate greed. A simple message than can resonate outside of NYC or Chicago or LA.

I dont see a credible leader. I certainty dont want Michael Moore or a Hollywood type to be the face of the protest. A union face (that worked 75 years ago) is equally limiting and subject to derision and only marginally better. It needs a face and representation from more than the far left who will simply be characterized as socialists.

And I agree with you on the permit issue. There is nothing wrong with civil disobedience if it is disciplined. (The early civil rights marchers were specifically trained to be non-confrontational and passive and prepared to be beaten). People can relate to passive resistance if they are sympathetic to the message. My initial reaction, right or wrong, was that this looked more like the WTO protests of a few years ago where the lingering image is one of promoting anarchy not justice. I was not moved by the images from NYC.

But I'm too old to get arrested again. The last time was in 85 at an anti-Apartheid sit in at the South African embassy in DC where I can now say I was there as much to hit on the hot red head who organized the event as for the cause. But then Arthur Ashe showed up and I never got close to her.

added:
With the right leader and message , this should be an issue that could bring the Tea Party crowd and the progressive left together..that is, if the Tea Party hadnt been co-opted by Palin, Fox and the Koch brothers et al. and if the far left would be more open to putting other differences aside.

 

Protestors, breaking the rules and not filing the proper paperwork and shit. oh my.

And in an age as purulently corrupt and absurdly unjust as the one we are living in now, perhaps anarchy is the only naturally proportional response.

 

It's lost legitimacy in your eyes, certainly. Not in everyone's, though. I guess that was what I was trying to say.

And I wasn't being facetious when I said I was sorry if this is inconveniencing you. It doesn't necessarily help the causes of the protest by pissing people off, after all, and you probably aren't one of the people they're protesting against despite your relative wealth.

 

I would love to get involved and may if it there comes a call to arms in my area. I'm unemployed right now so have the time but unfortunately not the money to travel to where the fight is currently.

Having said that, I think things are going to have to get much, much worse for a greater number of US citizens before a real groundswell of appreciable protests can take off and be effective. The Egyptian protesters benefited from having the police and military on their side. Such is not the case here. Good and decent law abiding citizens (which most of us have been bullied into being) have zero tolerance for the idea of being pepper sprayed or hauled off by their ankles. It's going to take some seriously extreme discomfort for the necessary numbers to feel comfortable risking what little they do have, to participate in actions to change the system for the greater good.

I think we've also become slave-minded in our feeling that the boss is too powerful and can't be defeated no matter what we do.

It's an untenable situation, for sure, and something's got to give. Bravo to these Wall St protesters who are least attempting to knock on the door. There may not be a great expectation of success but it's got to start somewhere.

 

as information has come out, it's turned out that the permit issue was the trigger for a lot of the stupid shit that went down on saturday---and it's also that case that otherwise the relations with the police are ok. the image of what is going on is getting clearer and as that happens things differentiate that previously were not so. the problem when sitting a few hundred miles away trying to assess what's going on with a movement that seems at this point to find it a matter of principle not to communicate with the media according to the usual pattern leaves one open to not having context and passing judgments anyway. i did not understand at all why nypd kettled people trying to move out from union square. at least now i have a better idea of the general explanation for that. this does not excuse the actions of some of the cops at the edges of the fencing--and least of all the pepper spraying of those two women thats rapidly turning into a p.r. Problem for the police. but at least things make sense in a way that on sunday and monday they did not. and as that happens, some of cyn's position gets clearer. so yeah, at least there's space to talk. and it's hard not to jump to conclusions. but to some extent, i think i did.

 

What's not to love about a New Yorker?

 

Kinda on topic, I'm currently at a small park near wall street. Radiohead are rumored to to perform in support of the protest. It's a madhouse.