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No Children

Discussion in 'Tilted Life and Sexuality' started by Mysugarcane, Aug 27, 2012.

Page 10 of 17
  1. Fangirl

    Fangirl Very Tilted

    Location:
    Arizona
    I knew me being honest wouldn't fly EDIT-- just read the entire thread.

    First, let me reinforce that I said I know my brother best but he and my sil are far from the only childless/childfree couples I've known.

    And wow, there are some strong defensive emotions going on. Fuck. It's OK. It's your life. Do as you please. I'd suggest, Please, do not do as I did because having a kid at age 23 meant tossing away my single 20's in favour of mommyhood and I'll never know what I missed out on but damn, it sure looks like it could have been fun.

    Maybe it's a generational thing, but when I hear/read--being childfree is great--we can just drop everything and go do whatever we like--it hits my ears as immature. When I hear I won't have to spend money on a kid--I can keep it all for meeeeee! Again, not sounding grown-up. For me, being grown up has meant being responsible, putting off getting the rewards that if I hadn't had kids, I could have gotten sooner and a bunch more that I've already spoken about.

    Yes, there are times that I think my brother will never grow up in the way a parent must. You can quit your partner, you can quit your pet (or have them die off after 10-15 years) but you cannot quit your kid. There is something about the knowledge that you are completely legally responsible for another human being's welfare and behaviour that yanks you out of the singleton mindset.

    EDIT/Again, I haven't read this whole thread word for word but If we continue to not have kids we are not going to repopulate enough to replace ourselves (the childbirth rate in the US is already less than 2 kids per couple). Is that anyone's concern? I really don't care nor do I think it is a reason to have kids but it is a reality that society will deal with. And yeah, I do get what we've done to the Earth. I really do. First Earth Day - 1970. I cared as a ten-year-old and I care as a 54 year-old.

    I remember getting really mad when my Sociology 101 professor declared that my little family, which then consisted of me and my 2 year-old son, was not in truth a 'real' family. Sociologically speaking, a family consists of a male, a female and a child, minimum. I still don't agree but there it is. So when we stop making kids, we stop making families and future families. Is this selfish or is it simply sane?

    Finally, I never had feelings about wanting to be a mom or not, for that matter. I had no feelings about it. Once I become a parent, I knew. At the risk of being run off the board I have to ask, how can you know what kind of parent you'll be until you are one?
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2013
    Fangirl, Dec 13, 2013
    #181
  2. GeneticShift

    GeneticShift Show me your everything is okay face.

    Location:
    The land of drugs, violence, and 8 Mile Road
    We're allowed to disagree, and I wasn't trying to be a bitch. Just as the term "breeders" previously used by others in this thread isn't cool to you, stating that childfree individuals don't have to grow up or don't understand sacrifices is frustrating to me.

    I understand how the "dropping everything and go do whatever we like" reasoning can sound immature, especially if worded poorly. But to many people, priorities are arranged differently. At this point in my life, I am choosing the path of "childfree" because, at this point in time, the idea of parenthood doesn't appeal to me. I don't care if I have the ability to jump on a plane and go somewhere at a moment's notice (which really, I wouldn't, because I would have other major responsibilities, like a job, pets, whatever), but I wouldn't want to bring life into the world knowing that it isn't my priority. If I were to have a child, I would want to drop everything in my life and be completely devoted to them, but since in my heart I don't know if that's what I want, I'm choosing not to take the risk of having a child that doesn't get what it needs and deserves to thrive.

    Basically, what it boils down to for me is a quote I'm going to borrow from my "life skills" teacher in high school (that I think may have been alluded to by other people on this thread): "If any part of you is questioning, don't. It's not fair to anyone involved, especially the child in question."
     
    GeneticShift, Dec 13, 2013
    #182
    • Like Like x 1
  3. Fangirl

    Fangirl Very Tilted

    Location:
    Arizona
    I respect your choices.
    I see your logic. And, I appreciate the time you took to give me a well-worded, heartfelt response.
     
    Fangirl, Dec 13, 2013
    #183
  4. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    This should not be a concern. There is such an infinitesimal chance that we will childfree ourselves to extinction. "Replacing ourselves" is such an odd idea. Replacing who, exactly? Do you see it as our duty to make at least one human for each human currently alive? Is there a human shortage? Is there a risk of one?

    I'd say no.

    Yes, some traditionalist views are so brontosaurian as to deserve ridicule. But they're often also simply a ideological capsule in time, surrounded by different views on either side of the earth's timeline. Out of curiosity, what year was that?

    Not everyone is passing up parenthood. Population growth rates are high in other areas of the world. In several African countries, for example, the average woman gives birth to four or five babies. In the U.S., it's two. In Canada, there are three children born for every two women.

    The U.S. has a population growth of just under 1%. That includes births, deaths, emigration, and immigration. I think Canada is much the same. Our economy depends on immigration because our birth rate isn't enough to sustain our population. It's been that way for years. We're still doing all right. Many people still want to come here. Many people still want to go to the U.S. Many, many people are still being born.

    Most developed nations actually function with more stability with a relatively low population growth. This ensures the proper allocation of resources and the proper education/training of citizens, etc. In some cases, like Japan's, depopulation problems exacerbated by an aging population (the elderly now outnumber the young) is a recipe for disaster that won't be solved by a childbirth policy alone. They're going to have to figure out how to retain more native Japanese and encourage increased immigration from elsewhere.

    In other words: The childfree aren't shirking their responsibility or are ignorant/indifferent to a pressing problem to keep the human race, or even the U.S. or Canada, going. (If that's what you were suggesting.)

    Don't knock it until you try it?

    To answer your question: You obviously can't. But, as with many high-risk, high-investment ventures, you had better really want it, because if things don't go as planned, you have to weather the consequences.

    I could be a great parent., but that doesn't mean I want to be one. I'm not going to do it just to find out. I still don't quite know why I should have children. I mean, I get the adoption thing. There are lots of children who need parents.

    To me, it makes far more sense to adopt than to give birth. Is it more generous/compassionate/responsible/caring to adopt than it is have your own children? There are starving orphans in Africa, but women here want to make their own babies to feed until plump? A quick Google search tells me that there are as many orphans in Africa as there are people in Canada. Maybe I'm being too much of a liberal rationalist.

    Blah, blah, blah, evolutionary/biological drives.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2013
    Baraka_Guru, Dec 13, 2013
    #184
    • Like Like x 2
  5. Fangirl

    Fangirl Very Tilted

    Location:
    Arizona
    I'm just winging it here, instead of looking up and citing. I did read--recently in an article in/from the New York times (I think) that the reproductive rate in the United States has now fallen below 2%. The article cited Japan, Italy and some other countries whose aging population is outpacing the birth rate and suggested that the US will (at some point) find itself in similar straights. Personally, I am not worried about this.

    No, I don't see it as our duty to replace ourselves but I do see it as our duty to do no more than have have two children per two humans.

    Let's see, the 1985-86 school year.
    Do the 4- 5 average survive into adulthood to reproduce?

    That Canada statistic is fascinating. Thank you for sharing it.

    Well, since you are the person I would turn to to clarify such information (I was referring to the US only) I'm going to file away your response as the correct one and therefore stand corrected.

    No, of course you don't have a responsibility to reproduce. I wouldn't put that on anyone. My deepest interest is in teasing out what the differences in mindset are between those that chose to be childfree and those who have kids. Since the bulk of the responses in this thread seem to be pro-childfree or practicing a child-free lifestyle, I wanted to better understand how you arrived at that viewpoint and what it is like maintaining it with the pressures/expectations of tradition--which can often include assumptions about family composition.
    You can knock it all you want. You can't know exactly what you are knocking until you've walked the walk. Again, no. Do not try it if you do not want to as you succinctly put it, "really want it, because if things don't go as planned, you have to weather the consequences."
    I agree that adoption is a grand idea. It didn't go that way for me but again, I wish to point out I didn't go about procreating in a well-thought-out fashion. In other words, do not do as I did--unless you want to.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2013
    Fangirl, Dec 13, 2013
    #185
  6. Borla

    Borla Moderator Staff Member

    Since I commented about being a parent, I assume this was at least partially directed at me?


    Speaking for me personally, I didn't say I know anything. The entire concept of a "good parent" is opinion and perspective. Lots of people who think they are or were good parents differ in that opinion from their own children (even after they are grown) or those around them who know them. I know of people who knew about and allowed horrible abuse to happen in their families but still swear vociferously that they were a good parent. And even without getting to that level, there are massive amounts of gray area that are merely personal preference as to what makes a good parent and what makes a bad one.

    But the reasons I said I think I would be a good parent are largely the reasons I think I am a good human, as well as what I think is a reasonably honest assessment of my strengths and weaknesses. Many of them are the same reasons that my wife and I are first on the list for many of our friends when they need someone to watch their kids, why a couple have actually approached us about us being in their will as the guardians of their children if something should happen to them, and why people often badger us to have kids. The specifics are detailed, but I think some of my strongest qualities would translate directly into parenting, and I know positively that if I were in that position I would give it everything I have. I think that anyone who is honest could somewhat evaluate themselves and figure out what they'd be good at in life and what they wouldn't. Would some things be different than expected once you got down to it? Sure. Are some of my expectations a little off? Absolutely. Am I confident that I could apply the positive parts of my personality and my talents well enough to make up for some of my weaknesses? I do. Did I have an awesome example that I could still go to for advice and counsel, who I would imitate the best parts of and learn from the worst parts of? Yup. Would I have said the same things about myself 10-15 years ago? Nope.



    Fun anecdote - Earlier this week my wife and I babysat for some friends of ours. She just had a major surgery and is bed ridden for a couple weeks. He had to be away from home for several hours for some business, and they have an 8 year old and an 18 month old. A couple hours into the evening of games with the older child and chasing the younger around playing with him, the 8yr old came up to me and said "you would make a really good dad". He's known me well since before he could walk and talk. I've seen him weekly for almost his entire life. I'm the one he came to when he was in 1st grade and was being bullied at school*. Does he know what it REALLY means to be a good dad? Not really. But he has a good idea of who makes him feel comfortable to be around, who is kind to him, and who treats his baby brother well. Kids are smart. So I'll accept his compliment and figure he sees something good that makes him say that.







    *He pulled me aside and asked if he could talk to me. He said his mom and dad told him that I was someone he could trust and he needed help. I had NO IDEA where he was going with that. Then he told me someone was picking on him at school. Almost made me cry he was so serious and that I was who he thought of to help...
     
    Borla, Dec 13, 2013
    #186
    • Like Like x 1
  7. snowy

    snowy so kawaii Staff Member


    Times have changed. Family science now regards a family unit as people related to each other by consanguinity (shared blood), affinity (marriage), or co-residence. Families have all kinds of shapes and structures, and it's fascinating to study all of them. Honestly, family science was one of my favorite classes in college.
    --- merged: Dec 13, 2013 at 7:28 PM ---

    Population studies are really interesting to me. My friend is from West Africa, where nations like Nigeria commonly have what's known as a pyramid structure to their population growth--lots of young people, but due to limited life expectancy, the population diminishes over age. Western Europe has declining birth rates, but the country with the worst problem is far and away Japan. Their problem is the reverse of Nigeria; they have an upside down pyramid. Declining birth rates and an aging population mean that there are lots of elderly and not so many young ones; it's gotten to the point that it's having an impact on the labor market in Japan, and will likely only get worse. In the United States, our shape is straight up and down, like a rectangle, because the Baby Boomers had the Baby Boomlet (woo, Millennials!). Essentially, we are replacing ourselves in the United States, and our birth rate varies a little bit either way anyway. It's not a crisis yet, but we should be aware of what is happening in other industrialized economies facing declining younger populations.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 20, 2013
    snowy, Dec 13, 2013
    #187
    • Like Like x 2
  8. Fangirl

    Fangirl Very Tilted

    Location:
    Arizona
    No. I'm trying really hard to not make anyone feel I'm singling them out--because I'm not.
     
    Fangirl, Dec 13, 2013
    #188
  9. Borla

    Borla Moderator Staff Member



    So I typed all that out for nothing?!?! *squint*
     
    Borla, Dec 13, 2013
    #189
    • Like Like x 2
  10. Fangirl

    Fangirl Very Tilted

    Location:
    Arizona
    No, that story of the little boy coming to you to talk about bullying is awesome.
     
    Fangirl, Dec 13, 2013
    #190
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    Ah, that was around the time when gay rights was a big issue, so I imagine a lot of traditionalists still thought gay families weren't or couldn't be a thing, let alone all the other potentialities. I find that view also rather Amero- and Eurocentric.

    I think most of them do. AIDS claims a lot of parents, which is causing a lot of the orphaning. Africa has a population problem, and they're poised for explosive growth.

    It's odd really. By default, my mindset is to want no children—indifference a lot of the time. I'd have to go out of my way to want and to plan to have children. It's not something that I desire, and so I have no drive to do it.

    Oh, I won't simply try it. Trust me. I have a general idea of what I'd be knocking based on observation. I have four siblings who have kids. Sure, you can say, "You have no idea what it's like to be a parent until you are one." Well, to that I say, "You have no idea what it's like to be male and childfree." Neither is true. We have some idea. The human brain is amazing for its capacity for imagination and abstract thought.

    No, I don't have experience as a parent, but I know enough about parenting to realize it's not something that rings my bell. Perhaps there is some magic I'm missing that only comes about when I have my own kids. Well, in that case, maybe ignorance is bliss. I don't know. In just over two years I'll be forty. I have yet to regret not having children. I have had the occasional "I suppose it'd be nice" or "I kind of envy some of those magical moments shared between parents and their kids," but then I look at the bigger picture and realize that it's not something I need to complete my life, nor is it something that's missing.

    "Awkward with women" has been a fine form of birth control for me so far. :p
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2013
    Baraka_Guru, Dec 13, 2013
    #191
    • Like Like x 1
  12. ASU2003

    ASU2003 Very Tilted

    Location:
    Where ever I roam
    We have way too many people on this planet, well at least between 45 degrees from the equator. There is massive amounts of poverty and crime because we don't have the land resources and jobs for these new kids. And I won't get into who is having kids and who isn't, and if they will be slaves to their jobs because they have to provide for their kids. If you look at Africa or China, the population is causing problems instead of improving things.


    View: http://youtu.be/icmRCixQrx8




    [​IMG]

    I'm not sure what the impact on society would be if the smart people who have good job, don't have kids and retire when we are 40. It doesn't cost much to travel the world and have a good time.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2013
    ASU2003, Dec 13, 2013
    #192
  13. mixedmedia

    mixedmedia ...

    Location:
    Florida
    Honestly, I don't see the time and money i invested in my kids as a sacrifice. I don't get it. That argument is a landmine of mixed messages.
     
    mixedmedia, Dec 13, 2013
    #193
  14. Fangirl

    Fangirl Very Tilted

    Location:
    Arizona
    I agree with everyone that has some idea about being a parent though they are child free--you can even have a pretty darn good idea. Maybe this sounds martyr-ish but the most mind-blowing thing about being a parent is that it never stops. Ever. You can send them to grandma's or hire a sitter but you still have that nagging knowledge that they will be returned to you because until they become self-sufficient, they are your responsibility. Sometimes that weight is crushing. And it's added to all the other weight that you bear on your shoulders. It so fraking real and serious. A lot of you sound like you get that. I give you huge props for taking the time to think it through. I don't believe in wasting time on regrets but if I had a do-over, I'm not at all sure I'd have children (obviously I'd be unaware of my amazing younger son--so wouldn't have that knowledge when making the choice).
    --- merged: Dec 13, 2013 at 9:26 PM ---
    No, not a sacrifice. I felt I owed it to them to give them the best I could as I brought them into the world. Above and beyond anything else, in their formative years it was my job to be as a good of a parent as I could muster. Unfortunately for first children, some of us do our learning on them.

    I get the feeling that you had a much more relaxed parenting style than I did, @mixedmedia. With my first son especially I was anxious a lot of the time. Our life circumstances were quite difficult and though I tried to keep him as removed from that as I could, he has ended up with anxiety issues that have not been treated thus far and really hinder his life. I think, had I already begun therapy, had a family support system or a decent marriage--any one of those things in place would have helped greatly. I didn't, so I muddled through.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 20, 2013
    Fangirl, Dec 13, 2013
    #194
  15. snowy

    snowy so kawaii Staff Member

    I'm getting to the point where I feel like I should respond to the question of having children with:

    "I have 400 of them."

    I'm really not motivated to have my own these days. My Mirena is up this summer. I'm getting a new one.
     
    snowy, Jun 2, 2015
    #195
    • Like Like x 1
  16. Tully Mars

    Tully Mars Very Tilted

    Location:
    Yucatan, Mexico
    My better half is in the education field as well. Taught for years, spent the past 5 years in a position that would be a vice principle in the US. She's in her early 40's and states she lost all interest in being a parent within a year or two of being responsible for several hundred children each day.

    Lately we've started taking a vacations at resorts that are 18 and over only. That created a rather funny conversation with my mother-

    "So, where are you staying this year?"

    "The El Dorado Royale, it's adults only."

    "I didn't need to know that."

    "Why? Oh, mom wait... "Adults only" in this case just means no children or guests under 18."

    "Oh, I see. Not that I care. You guys can vacation anywhere you want."



    BTW- No idea what or who "Mirena" is.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2015
    Tully Mars, Jun 2, 2015
    #196
  17. snowy

    snowy so kawaii Staff Member

    It's my IUD. Lasts for 5+ years.
     
    snowy, Jun 2, 2015
    #197
    • Like Like x 1
  18. POPEYE

    POPEYE Very Tilted

    Location:
    Tulsa
    on this note, I wasn't able to give my two boys all that they deserved or that I wanted for them. Knowing this as a Dad, I gave them comfort, security, Love, and the knowledge that I would always be with them. I raised my two boys alone from the ages of 2 & 3 until 12 & 13. Ten years and we are bonded like gorilla glue. Now looking back on it, I wish I had only dated and never re-married until they we're adult age. As for the job being done? Is it ever? That answer is clearly...no. even in my last days...dividing up the life time of resources and goods, I will always hope to make the best choices I can for their well being. A child is a life time commitment that's as clear as it gets.
     
    POPEYE, Jun 4, 2015
    #198
  19. thejuanald

    thejuanald Vertical

    Location:
    Here
    My fiancee and I have decided we don't want children, and her mother, a staunch catholic, got really offended and said that we are being incredibly selfish, whatever that means. I told her that bringing a child into this world just because that's what you're" supposed to do" seems way more selfish to me and we told her that if we did have children we would rather adopt.

    When we told my mom we would rather adopt she made an angry/disappointed face and said "don't you want one of your own?" I was pretty shocked by their responses.

    My fiancee and I have good educations that we spent a long time to get and now that we have jobs where we can finally enjoy the fruits of our hard work, we are supposed to immediately sacrifice all our money and time into a child and have one of us probably not be able to pursue our career for a good amount of time? No thank you.

    Not to mention the amount of people who try to save failing marriages by having another kid. I know a couple of women have tried that. It didn't work out for anyone.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2015
    thejuanald, Jun 22, 2015
    #199
  20. snowy

    snowy so kawaii Staff Member

    Seriously. I'd like some time to establish and enjoy my career, first and foremost. The women who've been most insistent that I need to have children NOW are the ones that don't really have careers, per se. They have jobs that certainly aren't their life's passion and strike me as little more than drudgery. But I have a career in a meaningful profession, and I have goals to go along with it.
     
    snowy, Jun 22, 2015
    #200
    • Like Like x 2
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