Men and feminism

I just want to point out that the spark the ignited the current conflagration occurred when I had the audacity to disagree with Shadowex about whether or not a particular blogger was "one of the most toxic voices online right now." In response, I was accused of being "pro-doxing, pro-anti-semitism, pro-genocide, pro-racism, pro-sexism, and pro-transphobia."

That escalated quickly.

Shadowex asks for civility in disagreement which he himself is completely unwilling to provide.

 

Exactly this.

 

Facts are not determined by consensus. All of you have repeatedly proven that you self-identify as feminists and simply will. not. accept. any criticism, disagreement, or dissent when it comes to feminism.

I'm literally citing my sources to the point of making entire sentences where every word is linked with a hard citation objectively proving what I'm saying is right, while talking with people whose method of discourse is to completely ignore what I say multiple times to the point I've repeatedly caught and proven they were responding to things I never even said. I don't give a fuck what "multiple people" think, facts don't change because a couple people who share an ideology whose principle defining features include being an echo chamber happen to agree someone disputing their position is <insert negative adjective here>.

Nobody here has ever given me the benefit of the doubt, in fact the shitstorm in the females & femininity thread was literally started because of someone posting sexism and throwing a pissy fit when she was called out on it, and then she and her supporters got so hostile and personal that, again, people were afraid to post on this forum. That is not "open and considerate", it's in fact the exact opposite. It's bigotry pure and simple.

This is simple: Member X supports person Y and group Z. I post hard evidence that Person Y is an extremist and group Z has nearly gotten multiple people killed via deliberate action.

Please by all means, go right ahead. Even when I report blatant personal attacks the admins don't do anything and some of them threatened me. It's patently clear that TFP's rules simply do not apply to favorite posters, and anyone dissenting from TFP's sacred cows is fair game for whatever personal attacks anyone wants to lob at them in any thread. I mean shit the crazy guy that thought he could win fights against police dogs wasn't subjected to as many personal attacks and mods didn't tolerate people getting abusive.



Gaslight all you want, I grew up being abused far worse by people far better at it than you.

This is simple: Are you going to join in with multiple people arguing against me and then, as soon as I try to reply, start employing personal attacks about "winning" and demanding I drop the subject? Are you going to take any remotely tangential chance you can find to take a shot at me about feminism in any thread you can, and then get personal about how I "derail" threads when I'm the one responding to you?

And the least honest post of any here. From the very beginning you, Baraka, and Bodkin have refused everything short of total and utter capitulation and admission that feminism is perfect, has no problems, and anything inconvenient to that narrative is defined as "no true feminist" to preserve it. No matter how much evidence I supply of how severe a misconduct with how much massive public backing you simply reject out of hand the very idea that feminism is anything but a perfect pure force of positivity.

There can be no middle ground because you three reject the very possibility of its existence, and you in particular seem to giddily relish in chances to get personal.

You're not even putting effort into your lies anymore. Post #79, page four, I state: "If you're not also pro-doxing, pro-anti-semitism, pro-genocide, pro-racism, pro-sexism, and pro-transphobia you should find Chu to be so toxic you question whether it's Poe's law at times."

To which your response was (page 9, post #81): "I thought he was anti-GG. Why would he adopt so many of their tactics?"

I did not accuse you of anything, I stated that those were all things Arthur Chu supports and if you stood against those things you should find Arthur Chu (who supports them all) to be despicable. I also made it even more clear when in the next sentence I elaborated further on these being Arthur's traits and you simply refuse to acknowledge the problem on the grounds that he claims the mantle of Feminism and therefore can do no wrong.

YOU however explicitly stated that those were gamergate's "tactics".

You accuse me of a lack of civility in the very same post in which you provably lie about me, and erase the fact you yourself did exactly the thing you claim I did.

 

Once again, put some effort into it. I quote past posts when I've already addressed something someone is saying and they refuse to acknowledge it by repeating the same thing I already addressed.

The "spark the[sic] ignited the current conflagration" was you making the very personal attack you provably falsely attribute to me.

 

I try very hard not to get personal.
I'm always happy to make my own life part of the debate because it's easier for me to argue about things I know.
That my mother was a working mom, a firefighter, a paramedic, active in the antiwar movement and raised me as a feminist is important to this kind of argument.
That my youngest is a lesbian 3rd wave feminist is also important.
That neither one of these important woman in my life hate(d) men or consider(ed) the woman you quote as being major leaders makes a difference to me.
I really can't argue from any other perspective.

I don't want you to drop out of the conversation.
I do want you to try and see things from the other side.
To see how you look to other people.
I'm always willing to take that step, which I wasn't when I was younger and I now I understand why people did not want to be around me when I got passionate about certain subjects.

When my grandfather was a young man he was a Wobblie and threw bombs at anti-union guards.
There was a time for that.
My mom followed Martin Luther King.
The world needs people who are willing to stand for what they believe in but not throw bombs.

 

I'm not really here anymore, so I will say it. You are a liar.
You won't accept any reasoning or accommodations because it's not what you want. Your entire modus operandi cannot exist with cooperation. That's why you've never accomplished it here. I was away for almost a full year and you're in the same exact place you were when I left. With dudes.

 

Horse shit.

The *only* person unwilling to accept disagreement is you.

And many of your so called sources have been fingered as highly questionable.

People have repeatedly reached out. To suggest other wise is just lying.

As for "people were afraid to post"... more lies. I was a mod. You were asked to support your claims. Nothing. You are full of vitriolic shit and have done more damage to this board than anyone else I can remember in recent history.

It upsets me that you are still here spewing your garbage.

Again, a pack of lies.

When I was a mod, the team went over your claims of personal attack time and again. There was much (too much!) discussion of you. There was not one mod that believed you were being personally attacked. Not. One.

You are delusional. You are disruptive.

Take your shit elsewhere. I am sure you can find some board where you can circle jerk into your men's rights fedoras until your heart's content.

I'd like to say I am done but I know I won't be until one of us is gone.

 

My other problem is that except for the one issue you are a fine member of the community.
I know people who have one hot button issue that their friends know to just know never to bring up because it's like being sucked into a black hole.
But sometimes you forget and everybody slinks off and hides, it's just that unpleasant.

Due to the nature of this forum we can't not have threads like this so I'm not sure how to make this work.

 

A fingering that was justified based on working backwards from the fact they disagreed with feminist sources. Until I started posting feminist sources that were in opposition to Marcotte/Koss/Valenti/West/Murphy style anti-equality feminism and suddenly feminist sources weren't acceptable either.

"Reached out" in the sense of telling me to stop disagreeing and accept feminism is always right.

When someone comes to you privately out of fear you don't out them for your own gain. But that's not something I would expect you to understand.

I'm sure there wasn't, especially because you were on that team and one of the worst offenders yourself.

Your slip is showing Charlatan. Your slip is showing.

Your posts a year ago were unabashedly sexist, and when called on that you responded with such viciousness that you and the angry mob you led literally scared other women out of posting. Before that you posted one of the most vile hateful fearmongering screeds I had ever seen and then proceeded to pummel me up and down and sideways for pages over that too.

I was gaslit into believing it was me once, this time I know from others it's not and I've flooded my posts with the facts to prove it.

I'll tell you the same thing I told a mod who came to me saying the idea of me being a problem poster didn't make sense: There's a reason for that. Maybe the real problem here is that a group of people sharing an incredibly insular and dogmatic ideology that's incredibly hostile to dissent or disagreement can't bring themselves to tolerate someone challenging their sacred beliefs.

 

Again with the Half truths and out right lies.

My slip is showing indeed. I have nothing left but open contempt for you. I have no interest in playing nice with you.

Your vitriol is a scourge and I see no benefit in even trying to be civil with you. Trolls don't deserve civility.

The time for a conversation has long past. You only hold to your diatribes and will accept no other point of view. Fuck you.

 

Look, it's pretty idiotic for me to continue this because I'm pretty sure it's not really serving any real purpose except to derail the thread even further.
I promise this will be my last comment on the subject.

I have relatives who are frum.
Brilliant woman, one of whom could easily be a rabbi but she sticks to the idea that she will never go to the bema, never study with men, never be ordained.
They firmly believe that the most important thing they can do is have those six kids and make sure the home is perfect for the husband.
And they will tell me what they are doing is empowering.
And I them about my mom and my daughter.
And we both think the other is slightly crazypants.
But we don't see each other as hostile to dissent or disagreement and we can understand people who challenge our beliefs.
We may not change our minds but we are better for having shared.

 

Okay, what I said (#76) was:

And your direct response to this was (#79):

The implication being that because I didn't find Chu toxic, I was pro-doxing, pro-anti-semitism, pro-genocide, pro-racism, pro-sexism, and pro-transphobia.

Note that this was before I accused Gamer Gate (not you, but Gamer Gate) of these things.

So this raises the question: If you are unable to even interpret your own words correctly, how are we to rely on you to interpret other things? And how shitty is it that I gotta play the fucking court reporter here?

 

Your slip was revealing a simmering bigotry that belies your claims of having "[tried] to find common ground". You never had any intention of accepting even the possibility someone could disagree with feminism and be anything but "circle jerking" into a "fedora", and ironically enough your very choice of insults also sheds any pretense of your ideology being about "equality" or fighting "sexism" as you use slurs whose entire existence is predicated on the very kind of sexism feminism should be against.

Which in a twisted way brings us right back on topic:

Being male means living in a world where the very people who base their entire public facing existence on the concept of fighting sexism, discrimination, and for equality are so much the opposite that a man posting about being so suicidal he begged for castration was flooded with so much hate of such astounding vitriol that someone merely saying that his suicidalness wasn't "nothing" is effusively praised merely for not attacking him in some of the most despical terms possible... and that anyone who thinks this is a sign of a problem is themselves subject to an even more vitriolic attack. It means living in a world where even though you're half of all domestic violence and rape victims you are so erased, so demonized by these very same people utterly monopolizing the claim of fighting for you that you are more likely to be arrested than your attacker and almost certain to be turned away or even accused of being the perpetrator yourself should you seek help.

And it means living in a world where despite all of this, despite the near universal adoration and support these deplorable people continue to bask in you are still constantly told that their movement is so for beyond reproach that you are in fact a woman-hating, forum trolling, circle jerking, racist caricature resembling misogynist piece of shit for daring to even question them even as they scream slurs at you that are based on the very things they claim to oppose.

"Unless of course the reason you don't find him toxic is the same reason you refuse to find anything wrong with any other feminist's actions, which both Slate Star and I have written about in different wordings: 'Insofar as your definition of ‘the right side of a gender issue’ is heavily influenced by ‘the side most feminists are on’, I’m going to have a really hard time answering that question in a non-tautologous way.'"

I explicitly stated the likeliest reason you wouldn't find his actions unacceptably toxic is because he claims the mantle of feminist and therefore per your unidirectional morality can do no wrong, since by definition if a feminist does it it's not wrong.[/quote]

 

Except I *have* admitted that I don't agree with everything every feminist has ever said (in conversations with you), which means that I don't think that feminists can do no wrong (you are super delusional if you think anyone one here actually believes feminists are infallible by virtue of their feminism), which means that that whole second part doesn't apply.

If you can't even be bothered to interpret your own words correctly, why should anyone trust you to interpret anything else correctly?

 

You say that, and then in application turn right back around and refuse to put that belief into practice. No matter how much evidence I give you of feminism having a widespread, major, mainstream problem you refuse to accept it and you continue to defend it and reject the legitimacy of any opposition. It's akin to someone refusing to believe that communism as a whole has a problem while people are pointing a the USSR, the Great Leap Forward, and most of the other assorted nastiness behind the iron curtain.

 

In other words, you agree with me that you implied that I was pro-doxing, pro-anti-semitism, pro-genocide, pro-racism, pro-sexism, and pro-transphobia and that you sometimes have a difficult time interpreting the things, even things that you have written.
--- merged: Jan 13, 2015 5:04 AM ---
Do you think there are other situations where you've been more hostile than you were aware of? Like, maybe you've insulted other people without even being aware of it? And that these insults might play some part in the fact that you occasionally rub motherfuckers the wrong way?

 

Make no mistake. I was being deliberately provocative and pushing your buttons.

If you wish to make assumptions about me, go right ahead. I don't care if you think I am bigoted. I know I am not.

I also know I shouldn't poke the troll (especially one as self righteous and on a mission as you are) but it can't be helped.

No amount of reason and discussion will serve to move you from your wobbly, wooden high horse.

Since any other level of engagement, other than agreeing with you completely, is off the table I'd rather throw cow flops at the troll. It's more amusing.