Internet Lunatics - RadFems, PUA's, MRA's, MGTOW's, etc.

Red pillars? Um, what?

 

Even if every single gun homicide in the entire year were committed by men exactly like him it would still only be 0.0003% of the male population. How many orders of magnitude beneath a single percent of the population is "uncommon" for you? If you actually stick to mass shootings then we'll need to switch to scientific notation to fit that many zeroes in a sentence. Taking that further, even RAINN is calling out rape culture for what it is: a cult of mass hysteria flying in the face of a crime rate that's dropped over 80% in the last 20 years.

As for your statistics... In 2011 alone there were over 12 THOUSAND homicides. 77.6% of the victims of all murders were *male*. Of the cases where the perpetrators race was known 52.4% were black and only 45% were white.

Are you going to seriously and with a straight face tell me that justifies prejudice against black men? Because that's what you just tried to do to justify fear and prejudice against men in general, and if that's a legitimate thing to do then the much larger body of crime committed by black men must also be a legitimate basis for fear and prejudice.

No one is saying the crimes and statistics you list aren't horrifying, but it's disengenuous at best to try and extrapolate to larger society from them while simultaneously ignoring other larger and more statistically significant extrapolations because they're politically incorrect. You don't blame or fear black people for homicide or other crimes despite their majority status as perpetrators, don't blame or fear men in general for an even smaller body of crime.

Redraven do you realise that you literally just claimed that nobody is allowed to disagree with you, ever?

The real question is why do you think that bringing these things up is threatening and damaging. If you really cared about equality wouldn't you be welcoming those people by co-opting them and saying "Yes, yes they do, now do you get why this is your problem too?" instead of trying to silence them. The only reason to do that is if you're not actually interested in equality or truth but only want to preserve a single political narrative.

Rogers obviously hated women, but if you read his garbage he also obviously hated everyone and everything else just as much. He spent his entire life savings on the lottery because he was crazy enough to think he would "believe" his way into winning it and became enraged when it didn't work. He hated women for not being attracted to him, men for being more attractive or successful than him, rich people for being richer than him, and world of warcraft because he blamed it for all his problems.

He'd already had a history of therapy and mental illness by the time his parents called the police, and he even wrote that he was an inch from being caught if the police had just searched his room.

Forbes has a good thorough writeup with a lot more factual meat, including a look at his mental health history and a summary of his 141 page screed so you don't have to suffer through it yourself. If you really want to hurt your brain go read the right-wingnuts who are blaming this all on gays somehow.

The one thing I can agree with you on is he did tragically define his entire self worth on traditional male gender norms, he felt he was nothing without female validation and money. But given that he was unstable enough to be prescribed antipsychotics I doubt he could have been talked into non-violence. If it wasn't money, power, and women it probably would have been politics or religion or hell fluoridated water.

RedPill is PUA with more misogyny and pseudoscientific bullshit. And they both hate the Men's Rights movement. They're literally diametrically opposed. Trying to claim that PUA/Redpillers are connected to the MRM is like trying to connect the Quiverfull movement to Feminism. The ideologies are practically opposites. PUA is all about getting laid in order to validate traditional hypermasculine extroverted gender norms, RedPill takes that to the next level with pseudoscientific misogynist bullshit about women. Both of them are counter to the ideas of gender equality and tearing down destructive gender norms which count a man's worth based on his money, labor utility, or female validation.

 

PAHAHA! Wow, I'd love to see the mental acrobatics and leaps of logic required to come up with that explanation, but after reading a lot of ultra-conservative delusional frothy-mouthed religious psychobabble BS on the internet, I have no doubt that it's very possible. Everything is the fault of the sinful, shameful queers! Especially those earth-quakes.

You're probably right there. People with that kind of mental disposition tend to get themselves wrapped up in some ideology or another, and usually will eventually take it to an inappropriate extreme because that's just what they do. I mean the misogyny bit is bad, but it probably could have been any number of "causes" that could have driven him over the edge.

YES. I was just about to type something very similar. From some of the things you posted in the "On Gender Politics" thread, I was really starting to wonder if you weren't a bona-fide red-piller yourself. Those vapid morons are like walking defense mechanisms - everything is viewed through their distorted and fanatically narrow lens of "Alpha or Not Alpha." Their idiotic reductionist logic is occasionally right about the behaviors of some women - but generally only the low-functioning idiotic women who they pursue because they generally can't hold their shit when it comes to any woman with a brain, due to the fact that their cookie-cutter set of manipulative actions and reactions only works on people as dumb as they are. And then they demonize any women who are smart enough to rise above the idiocy and "out-game" them, calling these women corrupted un-feminine Westerners - and have you noticed their obsessive tendency to travel to uncivilized third-world countries - mainly in the East - and brag about how the poor, oppressed, uneducated women over there that they take advantage of are "what women should be" because they pander to these pathetic jerkoffs out of a need for sustenance and false hope for a better life? They're like a society of internet Ass-pies (Asperger's Syndrome half-retards) obsessively clinging to a system of fake, long-since-refuted, and generally misunderstood and misapplied concepts rooted in neuro-linguistic programming, along with outdated norms that allow them to inhabit pre-made, simplified social archetype roles while saving them from having to develop into more socially functional adults. This kid, in his videos, sounds like just the kind of angry, unstable "Useful idiot" who would fit perfectly into their society.


Also, with his good looks, great hair, and a nice BMW, how fucking stupid would this kid have to be in order to be unable to get laid for twenty-two years? I mean shit, my number is currently at 14 (three of those being just since I got divorced like 4-5 months ago), and I'm short, much less attractive, drove a shitty old beat-up Ford Contour up until a few months ago, and borderline socially retarded! Jesus, unless he was just unpleasant and stupid to the point of being repulsive, he should have at least just accidentally stumbled into some ass by his age! This is part of what makes me think that there had to be some kind of serious mental illness thing going on here.

 

I learned a thing or two from PUA, it in itself isn't a "bad" thing, and there is a science to attraction. There are those who may use it for weird reasons, but if you just want to increase your chance of getting a date I don't see anything wrong or delusional about it. I sort of figured this stuff out not long before it became a "thing" on the net back in the early 90's, its not really earth shattering but some guys never get it so learning it can't hurt.

PUA doesn't seem to be misogynistic though to me, the red pill thing seems to be guys who have issues there.

 

Remember when the original @plan9 had a proto red pill thread on an olden TFP? THAT guy... lemme tell ya...

 

This is true; I'm not completely socially retarded, only about halfway, so I had figured out some of this stuff just by watching more successful friends make it work and analyzing some of the underlying principles and applying them here and there, I just didn't have names for it. Both PUA and Red Pill (and also MRA) writings yield interesting and useful bits of information that I cherry-pick (mostly just the positive and non-socially-destructive bits) to incorporate into my overall life philosophy and augment my view of things - I just don't want to become one of those guys that's completely obsessed with it, or get all angry or misogynistic or extremist. Men do shitty things. Women do shitty things. Society at large is kinda dumb and often does dumb things or behaves with a mob mentality. You just gotta find your niche, avoid the shit-heads in life, and enjoy living while you're alive.

 

I'm one of those geeks who miss social cues, like a woman pretty much throwing herself at me, and a tendency to talk far too much about esoteric subjects that most folks find incredibly hard to follow but I've done fairly well.
The main thing was respect and not playing games.

Being honest and straight forward doesn't work with all woman but they are the only way to go.

I have many friends who have very different opinions than I do @shadowx3
As long as they respect my opinion, we often agree to disagree. I will agree with them when they have a valid point rather than argue everything down to the ground.
Feminism isn't the bugbear, the men's movement doesn't have to be a bunch of jerks, it's the system that's the problem and we should be working together to fix it.

 

I'm at a bar and have a function to attend so I'm only going to be there for about another 20 minutes.
Girl starts to talk to me on her own (busy place we offered them our table as we were going to be leaving).
After some small talk....
Her: "So do you smoke?"
Me: "Not my thing."
Her: "How about sex?"
Me: "Oh yea I like that." <- answered as a matter of a fact question, not even looking at her.
Me: "Gotta run, nice talking to you."

Me 3 days later: ""

Now this story has a happy ending, kinda. Turns out she knew someone who knew me, I got asked out to a "set up dance" with her. We dated a bit, but it wasn't working for me, but still.... doh.

 

Wait what..? Explain...?

 

Several iterations ago, there was a meatnecked member named plan 9, who started a thread where he gave out PUA/ redpill/ladder theory advice to all requestors. Not sure if this is what got him banned, but I'm pretty sure he did get banned.

 

I believe they are speaking of a different user, who happened to use that same moniker, many years ago, probably during the Clinton Administration.

The "Plan 9" movie came out in 1959, and was proclaimed "the worst film ever made" in 1980, so presumably it was since then.

 

Mark your calendar, we don't agree often. You only see half of the stuff I post here, the other half of my arguments are with people on my side of the fence over taking the route of being better than the people we have a problem with on your side rather than sinking to their level. Part of the problem at least on our side is that by the time people are finally driven to seek out help and support they've often been pushed far beyond their limits and have an understandable amount of anger pent up inside them. The "man up and suck it up" norm is a vicious circle that makes it a lot more difficult to reach people before they hit that point, and when they do they're in no state of mind to constructively handle the sort of abuse they get thrown at them from the other side of the fence. Of course there's also an enormous amount of False Flag Trolling and brigading going on all over the place (outside reddit as well), which further muddies the issue.

Probably the one thing I repeat most often to people on this side of the fence is "You aren't helping dammit".

Branding suggests the issue is purely semantics, I'd say there's more to it than just the sign over the door. The best metaphor I've heard is describing Feminism as having an autoimmune disorder. for example one of my closest friends in real life was an ardent feminist for the longest time but since she was a friend really listened to a lot of my points. She brought it up on her own once and wound up basically going through a Auto-de-fe over it.

If instead egalitarian feminists responded to misandrist feminists the same way christians respond to the WBC odds are you would just absolute gut almost the entire MRM in probably less than a year. All it would take is one major website calling out Jezebel/FeministCurrent/et al for their crap, some public counter-protests when the misandrists showed up in the real world, and good faith legislative efforts to kill off the duluth model and tender years doctrine.

There's a reason the work I'm trying to do for men's issues at my university is going to be under feminism's name. It's a three-for-one that benefits everyone. The feminist influence keeps them from becoming radicalised by the fringe of the MRM, their mere existence exerts a counterforce to the radicalising fringe of Feminism, and anytime someone tries to interrupt their for-women work they can spin it into a recruitment by saying "Same room, different day. Come back Tuesday".

 

@Martian, it's funny, I was just turning that around in my head today. Branding. I agree. The issue here seems, in part, to be one of branding.

I can see what Shadowex is saying about semantics, but I think that needs to come back a step. If what I am coming to understand Men's Rights is, then the dialogue that needs to happen between moderates in both camps can't happen as long as each side is burdened with their more extreme elements.

Men's Rights are burdened with the belief from those outside of the chatter that they are just another excuse to normalise misogyny. A way for men to claw back any gains that women might have achieved in the past several decades.

Feminism has been about as vilified as the word Liberal. They too get painted with the worst aspects with no apparent recognition of historical context.

From what I can see there is a shit tonne of common ground, but there is a lot of talking past each other. There is a lot of anger to go around and much of the common ground is lost in suspicion and mistrust.

We have seen a lot of knee jerk reactions on this board. For some the stakes are personal. For others, they are entrenched beliefs.

This is just some rambling thoughts. I might change my mind about it all later.

 

The MRM or whatever is sort of a sad, pathetic, angry joke. From my readings of the ranting its mostly guys who either got screwed over by women in their opinion or are unable to get laid. There is some reaction to radical feminism too, which is perhaps the only legitimate "platform" I see there, but thats not what most of the musings seem to be about.

Radical feminism on the other hand can be found on every major college campus. It doesn't take long to find radfem professors, speakers, and opinion pieces in national publications.

At this point the two are by no means equal. If anything the only way to work this out would be for an expansion of the MRM. Right now its too unequal a dynamic.