How should the government handle the producers of the video that sparked the ME riots?

roachboy · Sep 20, 2012

the obama administration bothers me quite alot, truth be told. i dislike their foreign policy in particular. greenwald is largely right about what's been happening, i think. the administration invested in the transparently false "film" line because it undermined associations between these actions and us policy. now they've reverted to another bush period line by invoking "terrorism"...which also manages to divert attention away from the damage that the nato intervention did in libya and what it left behind. this kind of line also gets in the way of looking at the specifics of what's been going on in these various places and pushing them apart--because when you do that, the only thing left holding them together is us policy. which is a problem. and the policy choices are problems. what we appear to have is an extension of bush-period neo-con great game nonsense with a different rhetorical veneer---same passivity with respect to palestine, for example (which has achieved the rather amazing point of the pa threatening to back out of oslo, which would undermine the entire process, such as it is...this may not be bad in a sense from the palestinian viewpoint...and bibi clearly senses a problem---whence the idiotic demands for some "red line" on iran)....pakistan is self-evidently not awed by american policy toward it. nor should they be. yemen, sudan...indonesia i know less about politically, so am not sure about what's happening there. so this seems clearly damage control in an electoral season by the administration, which it's doing by demonstrating (again) the continuities that connect it to the foul old days of the bush people.

there's been a consistent conflict carried on by the obama administration to contain critiques from the left on its various policy choices. given the overall sycophancy of the dominant media, it's been successful so far as the teevee oriented public is concerned. but it's not worked at all for people whose primary information streams are on the net. and its' one of the main reasons why i am among those people who is reluctantly voting for obama....the idea of romney getting anywhere near power is just horrifying...but i digress.

of course, this trajectory undermines the centrality of the question in the op.

Joniemack · Sep 20, 2012

Baraka_Guru said: ↑

Special? Rather, I'd say this is quaint.
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Par for the course. If I could count on my fingers the number of times the US government has spun the truth to it's advantage (or outright lied) I'd probably need over a hundred thousand fingers.

Amazing that the Obama administration was so stupid to try pulling this stunt while it still had egg on it's face over the Bin Laden episode.

Page 4 of a thread which has dealt almost exclusively with a non-issue.

I feel like a chump.

roachboy · Sep 21, 2012

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/21/world/africa/after-attack-in-libya-ambush-struck-rescuers.html?ref=global-home&moc.semityn.www

a cynical fellow might see in this latest installment of the sitcom the infotainment management strategies at work...wait, let's separate the "terrorist" part from the "mob" part because this "mob"/"film" narrative plays too much to the racism at the center of conservativeland...but with "terrorism" we can work the strong, manly man thing...

meanwhile, thanks to those advertising geniuses at charlie hebdo:

Islamic countries brace for anti-west protests | World news | guardian.co.uk

Baraka_Guru · Sep 21, 2012

roachboy said: ↑

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/21/world/africa/after-attack-in-libya-ambush-struck-rescuers.html?ref=global-home&moc.semityn.www

a cynical fellow might see in this latest installment of the sitcom the infotainment management strategies at work...wait, let's separate the "terrorist" part from the "mob" part because this "mob"/"film" narrative plays too much to the racism at the center of conservativeland...but with "terrorism" we can work the strong, manly man thing...
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Below is an excerpt from an interesting report I stumbled upon, from the Strategic Studies Institute, no less. I'm not sure how much of this I agree with, but it does seem rather at odds with the mainstream and ongoing actions/dialogue/debates on the issue of Islam and the West.

The timing of its publication is interesting to note as well: The beginning of Obama's term. I wonder, oh I wonder, how much of this has informed his foreign policy.

Precision in the Global War on Terror: Inciting Muslims through the War of Ideas

[...]

CONCLUSION AND RECOMMENDATIONS

These thoughts on wrong approaches in the war of ideas are by no means comprehensive. I could have included others that circulate in the defense community like the false and misleading idea that Muslims believe in predestination (some may, but it is not a tenet of Islam) and are therefore fatalists, thereby ignoring the entire discourse on human will and responsibility in Islam. In mentioning so many wrong readings of Islam, my recommendations are primarily that we need to revise our way of thinking about Muslims, their ideas, and the movements operative today in their societies. To be more specific:

It is time to abandon the assumptions of a clash of civilizations between Islam and the West, which are funding a well-meant but arrogant and misconceived program for rehabilitation of the Islamic world based on the idea that the West knows best. Policymakers should rethink the wisdom of a U.S. policy that aims to alter a world religion, Islam, so as to produce an ideological current favorable to U.S. interests in territories of the Muslim world. Surely, the intent of this program is geostrategic advantage and not reform of Islam for its own sake. The program could backfire, or simply fail, but as it stands, it is not difficult to understand Muslim resentment against it.

It is time to directly engage ordinary Muslims, their leaders, their clerics, and their intellectuals, and listen to their ideas about the appropriate pursuit of terrorism and the ways that ideological problems like the linkage between jihad and martyrdom can and should be addressed.

It is inappropriate to look to Muslims in diaspora in Europe, or the United States as substitutes or models for Muslims in their own home countries. Diffused Islam or assimilated Muslims are not the answer for the Muslim world.

Likewise, each country must develop its own model of development; about which populations, civil society actors, and governments will necessarily differ. Importing Indonesian or Turkish Islam to Arab states would reverse the historical emulation of the Arab heartland of Islam, but it makes little sense if what is desired is lasting social and ideological change. Further, inter-Muslim activities could be beneficial, and need not threaten the West.

Precision is badly needed. The analysis of actors and groups connected with 9/11 is still inaccurate. If we are to have bona fide counterterrorist and antiterrorist programs, they must be rooted in precision and attention to the context of each and every event, actor, and recommendation.

Where particular issues have been identified, it is important to proceed moderately with antiterrorist measures, and acknowledge issues of sovereignty. Do not resort to simple binarism or destroying institutions that have intrinsic value, as in equating certain madrasahs that produced jihadistfever with all madrasahs.

Acknowledge Islam as a sister religion to Christianity and Judaism instead of extending the "clash of civilizations" thesis to a "clash of religions." This includes the acknowledgment by Muslims that their God is the God of Christians and Jews.

Policymakers should become more knowledgeable about the "red lines" that have developed in Muslim theology and practice so as not to tar moderating Muslims with the brush of apostasy or confuse "free speech" with an attack on basic religious principles.

Planners and policymakers should avoid essentialist and reductionist interpretations of key concepts like the Caliphate. In particular, they should not describe an idealized form of political rule as the ultimate danger to the West. They should discard the assumption of a zero-sum world in which Muslim unity spells Western defeat, or Western success rests on the division and disunity of Muslims.

Support democratization in the region but be attentive to indigenous ideas that would bolster democracy and stop treating Islam or Islamic movements as if they are intrinsically antidemocratic.

Observe the rule of law and humanitarian principles, and do not stoop to torture or the illegal scrutiny and observation of citizens and immigrants as if there were no meaning to the term "the free world."

Relinquish the term "Islamofascism." Instead, endeavor to build alliances with Muslims and not only with their governments in the struggle against terrorism. Avoid "long war" and "World War IV" contentions.

Endeavor to understand how Muslims observe Islamic law and the idea that Allah is the sole sovereign in their daily life, in the Muslim world and the West, while abiding by laws of the land.

Where Americans have come to control Islamic messages, for instance in prisons in Iraq and in the media in the West (but also to some degree in Iraq), they should beware of missionary zeal or propagandizing as is essential in all broadly addressed strategic communications.

The strategic communications and policy efforts underway that aim to bolster and expand secularism in the Muslim world are at odds with historical and social development in the region. The United States (even along with Europe) cannot undo the Islamic awakening, the growth of Islamist movements and principles, and popular support for them. Work with Islamists instead of engaging them in what surely will be a very long war.

U.S foreign policy in the Middle East and the Islamic world is riddled with contradictions. Even if these could be better rationalized, insofar as American policies are perceived to be unjust, to support neocolonialism, to include detrimental aspects of globalization, and to attack Islamic values while promoting American commercial interests and a longterm U.S. military presence in the region, they will be opposed in the region. Working to solve the Israeli-Arab conflict and supporting more effective (not just stronger) nations built on popular consensus that are engaged in democratization is essential. However, the United States cannot run the show nor even exert credible influence unless its recommendations make sense and promote cooperation between political and ideological rivals in the region.

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Excerpt - Precision in the Global War on Terror: Inciting Muslims through the War of Ideas

samcol · Sep 21, 2012

that's what i was trying to get it. our arrogant heavy handed america knows best approach just doesn't seem to be winning over hearts and minds like we think it should. also separating the radical/terrorists sectors from the population has proved nearly impossible considering they aren't a standing army with recognizable uniforms.

roachboy · Sep 21, 2012

aaaand or course morsi is all in for the imf doing their neo-liberal fuckhead thing in egypt:

Egypt's turmoil is a distraction from IMF economic agenda | Nick Dearden | Global development | guardian.co.uk

and there are reports of about 20,000 demonstrating to protest the attack on the consulate last week.

clearly "they" all think the same way.

redux · Sep 21, 2012

samcol said: ↑

that's what i was trying to get it. our arrogant heavy handed america knows best approach just doesn't seem to be winning over hearts and minds like we think it should. also separating the radical/terrorists sectors from the population has proved nearly impossible considering they aren't a standing army with recognizable uniforms.
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Our approach to Libya (of aiding the peoples revolution, but not putting boots on the ground as opposed to invading and occupying like Iraq) seems to have won over the hearts and minds of the Libyan people.

From a Gallup poll:

A majority of Libyans (54%) surveyed in March and April 2012 approve of the leadership of the U.S. -- among the highest approval Gallup has ever recorded in the Middle East and North Africa region, outside of Israel.

Libyans perceive many threats to their newfound freedom and largely share the West's concern of Islamic militants.
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And as roach noted, a crowd of 20,000+ demonstrated to protest the attack on the consulate...10x the size of the anti-US demonstration/attack.

The worst thing we could do would be to disengage and move to a more isolationist ME policy.

roachboy · Sep 26, 2012

i think this has to be said about the latest resurgence of this racist nonsense brought to us courtesy of the bush period:

Demonizing Muslims and the New McCarthyism (Bacevich) | Informed Comment

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