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How do you lose a plane?

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by ralphie250, Mar 10, 2014.

  1. ralphie250

    ralphie250 Fully Erect

    Location:
    At work..
    but isnt there or there should be some sort of alarms that report back to air traffic control when a plane vers off corse or looses altitude
     
  2. RedSneaker

    RedSneaker Very Tilted

    It is horrifying to me that they broadcast the actual recovery of these bodies. I can't imagine seeing the bloated dead bodies coming out of the water. Heartless to the victims families. And disrespectful to those who died. I just can't comprehend.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. redravin

    redravin Cynical Optimist Donor

    Location:
    North


    Gotta have our news, doesn't matter who it hurts.
     
  4. rogue49

    rogue49 Tech Kung Fu Artist Staff Member

    Location:
    Baltimore/DC
    Lesson learned...it's a BIG fuckin' world.
    We're tiny. (even a plane)

    A little more than 10 years ago, I was in charge of the backend of a Satellite Telecommunications firm.
    The specialized in units that were applied to transportation, etc out in the middle of nowhere or travelling through it.
    Many vehicles, including planes, trains, trucks and emergency transport go through areas where there are no terrestrial communications.

    Most of your communications, come from towers and such.
    These units moved data & information to a geosynchronous satellite, 21,000 miles above the Earth.
    Data packets that come typically through your phone are much more substantial than what you can do through satellite units...even to this day.

    And the communications are often not consistent...like when you get no signal going thru a bad area...or because of bad weather.
    Now add on to that signals that are in bad weather and going through remote areas...the combinations makes moment by moment communications difficult if not impossible, even in emergency situations.

    The only way to improve this, would be to increase the terrestrial capabilities....and the satellite communications.
    And if you haven't noticed...these planes are being lost in areas where there aren't as much investment or organization as Europe, Japan or the US.

    While satellite telecommunications specialize in very remote areas such as middle of Sudan, tundras of Canada...and mountains of Afghanistan,
    once you get out over the oceans, 75% of the world's area...it starts getting more challenging.
    You got to have a satellite up there, maintained.
    You got to have a satellite telecomm company with some capability and efficiency
    You got to have a transport company (airline) invest into getting good equipment and services.
    You got to have a government that consistently supports the infrastructure and maintenance.
    Everything counts.

    Any slack...shit happens.
    Even in the best of the post-industrial nations...

    I've seen what happens in an US firm...it ain't pretty...it isn't Hollywood. ("business" happens, things aren't always the most efficient or competent)
    And as with any human endeavor...holes occur. (ask the US Secret Service...)

    And because of the world's size and weather's dynamic...even the best may not be able to get everything every moment. (even in 2014)
    You just have to do reviews...improve protocols...improve capabilities.

    The hard part, people's lives and well-being count on all this.
    BUT...it keeps getting better.
    Bit by bit...that's the good part.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. RedSneaker

    RedSneaker Very Tilted

    Good points @rogue49

    And now I'm curious as to your Secret Service connections/information.
     
  6. rogue49

    rogue49 Tech Kung Fu Artist Staff Member

    Location:
    Baltimore/DC

    I don't have any Secret Service connections...I was noting their own recent holes in their efforts

    Maybe they need a transponder to tell people where they are and a black box to say what they've done.

    I was just providing some insight into the industry that keeps track of these planes.
    What's important is about the loss of these people...and how to improve it to prevent it from happening again.
    That not only takes better tech...and more infrastructure,
    but more diligence by the people running it and the governments supporting it. (EVERY nation)

    This is what I mean...
    Pilot’s Final Request Was Met by Two-Minute Radio Silence

    2 minutes is forever in an emergency situation...
    Someone was probably taking a piss.

    Sad that it takes some death and tragedy to get the powers that be to do it right.
    (and make sure businesses to it too...)
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2014
    • Like Like x 1
  7. ralphie250

    ralphie250 Fully Erect

    Location:
    At work..

    after reading the article it makes me wonder several things, shouldnt there be several people in the tower? im sure there was but im sure they werent all pissing at the same time. if the pilots were familiar with the airbus then they should have known what the limits of the plane were and they proablly did. still makes one wonder why there was no distress signal
     
  8. PonyPotato

    PonyPotato Very Tilted

    Location:
    Columbus, OH
  9. ralphie250

    ralphie250 Fully Erect

    Location:
    At work..
    i dont know shit about an airplane, but one would think that on the way down one pilot would hit a button or flip a switch. there should be failsafe in planes that if it veres off course or something odd happens then there is an alert sent to ATC
     
  10. PonyPotato

    PonyPotato Very Tilted

    Location:
    Columbus, OH
    If both pilot and copilot are focusing all of their energy and efforts on keeping a plane in the sky, they don't have a second to hit a button or flip a switch to send a distress signal - they must spend all of their focus and energy on taking in information and giving rapid responses. Taking a second of focus away to find a button and push it is not something you can do under that much pressure. The Air France flight went from initial loss of stability to an uncontrolled descent in under 2 minutes, and the pilots were continuing to attempt control over the descent for the following 2 minutes until they impacted the ocean surface.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  11. rogue49

    rogue49 Tech Kung Fu Artist Staff Member

    Location:
    Baltimore/DC
    Depends on the environment and dynamic...what you'd think would be true often isn't.
    Towers in the US and most post-industrial nations tend to be better staffed...but it's not guaranteed.
    You'd be surprised what goes on...on a day to day basis...much less moment by moment.

    That's why I used the Secret Service and their current lapses as an example.
    The SS are well funded, with well trained individuals, with a mission to be monitoring at ALL times...YET, not once, but twice or more...there were lapses.
    This happens quite a bit in 24/7/365 environs...where there's "supposed" be uptime 99.999% of the time.
    Reality is ...not so.

    Including on flights and watch-towers.
    Long hours, bad mgmt, distractions, glitches in the systems...even just being "human" or even authorized down-time.
    Many variables, many fluctuations...everything counts, moment by moment.

    Now add in...the potential of a less than adequate system, infrastructure...perhaps going over seas, out of range...bad weather. Systems idealized, not weather-proofed or with backups
    Every factor comes into play. (in a split second)
    We humans may not account for something...even at our most alert and diligent.
    Reality accounts for EVERYTHING...ALWAYS.

    All it takes is one thing...bam, it's done.
    That's why they have committees...to investigate.

    This is why production environments, mission critical tasks are so risk adverse oft times.
    But all it takes is one "business decision" where there's not enough resources...or something that disrupts attention. Something happens.
    I know it's happen to me...I'm like "OH SHIT!!" (and yeah, this was at The Mint...after 20+ years of working)

    Fortunately, I haven't had to deal with lives...yet. I only deal with computer systems and data...mostly
    (that's why I couldn't be a doctor...I couldn't dealing with a "what if" scenarios after the fact...it would crush me, kudos to those that do...and care)

    But these people deal with people with lives in their hands daily.
    Sometimes they care, sometimes they don't...sometimes it's just "a job"...sometimes, they had to scratch an itch. Maybe all the folk were dealing with another urgency. Maybe there was a drop in bandwidth or a bug
    Maybe, maybe, maybe...

    Reality doesn't let up.
    Who knows.
    We'll see if the investigation shows the truth...maybe it won't. (for whatever reason)

    It's amazing when management and everyone else shows up and says, "How could you let this happen??!!"
    Conveniently forgetting the schedule they made, the budget cut they did, the process they didn't allow to be fixed...and so on.
    It ain't magic.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2014
    • Like Like x 2
  12. POPEYE

    POPEYE Very Tilted

    Location:
    Tulsa
    disgusting, it turns my stomach that the media is always looking for shock value, I agree, RedSneaker, with everything you said.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  13. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
  14. redravin

    redravin Cynical Optimist Donor

    Location:
    North
    It doesn't help Malaysia Airlines that their website got hacked by the Lizard Squad.

    Lizard Squad Hack Adds to Malaysia Airlines' Woes - Bloomberg View

     
  15. ralphie250

    ralphie250 Fully Erect

    Location:
    At work..
  16. Taliesin

    Taliesin Slightly Tilted

    Location:
    Western Australia
    MH370 Latest: Experts Analyse Wreckage Of Plane Wing Found On Reunion Island

    Waiting on further developments to see if it's actually MH370...
     
  17. Charlatan

    Charlatan sous les pavés, la plage

    Location:
    Temasek
    Taliesin, I heard that news this morning as well. Let's hope it's the plane.
     
  18. ralphie250

    ralphie250 Fully Erect

    Location:
    At work..
    i saw that. hopefully it is and people will get some closure. although i still find it hard to comprehend that its taken this long
     
    • Like Like x 1
  19. zoolady

    zoolady New Member

    Interesting timing. Our local PBS just showed the "How Do You Lose a Plane" documentary made by NOVA. Very helpful to understand those who aren't familiar with airline navigational and tracking procedures. Fascinating, actually.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  20. POPEYE

    POPEYE Very Tilted

    Location:
    Tulsa
    or that if it is the same plane it ended up so far way. My understanding is that it would have ran out of fuel long before reaching land.