Politics Gun violence in CT

it's a good thing chicago has such strict gun laws. 22 homicides is really good start to the new year. i bet most of them were ccw holders, non felons, and obtained their weapons through legal means.

please go on and explain how you are going to track 300 million firearms again. we can't even track people in this country, let alone guns with no documentation.

 

the background checks already happen. i've only bought one gun that i didn't have to do a background check because the guy wasn't a dealer so it was a private sale. you can say background check every private sale but that seems kinda ridiculous when there's 300 million firearms out there. these aren't like automobiles where if you can't plate it you can't use it. you can just hand someone cash and throw the thing in your closet. if you get caught with it who's to say you didn't buy it before the private sale background check began. the only thing this is going to accomplish is and another hassle, another tax if you will to honest gun purchasers. the people doing it illegally will just keep doing it illegal.

the thing i don't like about mental illness is how they define it. it's getting to the point where if you question the government or think it's out of control tha can throw up red flags.

i think i covered the tracking thing through the national database above. it might have merit if we were starting from scratch, but there's already too many out there to bother.

report large purchases of weapons? i guess this should warrant a fbi search, so they can raid your house and take all your pre ban shit and snoop your emails to see how many mass shootings you have planned.

i think the stricter ccw permits thing really drives me nuts the most. WHY??? we have one national vigilantism story and all ccw people have to take the heat for it. the people who ccw are already going above and beyond to be on the up and up, why make them jump through more hoops? they aren't the ones committing the crimes for the umpteenth time.

 

Not surprising. The NRA is a lobbying group for gun and gun paraphernalia manufacturers. Any benefit to the individual gun owner or member of the organization is purely coincidental. Their fight is not a principled one, as it is for so many of it's members. They're not lobbying on Capital Hill with the noble aim of protecting 2nd amendment rights for their members. Their only purpose for being there is to ensure the destruction of any measures that threaten to limit the ability of their clients to sell without impediment. What their status as a membership organization offers them is a legitimacy they might not otherwise have and a block of gun-issue voters they can use to twist the arms of politicians.

It's childishly naive of NRA members to believe they are anything but pawns. Yet they do. So yeah, not surprising that the NRA is deaf when it comes to the opinions of their members.

 

The background check is not already happening in as much as 40 percent of gun sales. No one is talking about retroactively checking the owners already possessing guns.

And more importantly, only half the states are voluntarily reporting those who meet the legal definition of "mentally defective" with only several hundred thousand names in the NICS

More than 90% of voters, including 75% of NRA members support universal background checks.

This is paranoia. The legal definition of "mentally defective" is quite specific -- anyone whom "a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority" has determined to be "a danger to himself or other" because of "marked subnormal intelligence, or mental illness, incompetency, condition, or disease." (the problem is that the states are not reporting these folks because it is voluntary)

It is never too late to fix the NICS database. The 2007 law signed by Bush doesnt go far enough (again primarily because of the voluntary nature of reporting and the lack of coordination and data sharing between federal agencies.)

Licensed dealers have been required to report mulitple sales of handguns over 5 day period since 1986. There is no reason not to expand it to include all firearms, not just handguns.

There is no issue of FBI searchs, raiding homes, taking all pre ban shit and snooping in emails....more paranoia.

Why? Because many (most?) permit holders have had little training, particularly on how/if/when to respond to a public incident. This also has widespread support, including among NRA members.

 

You mean from this study?

https://www.ncjrs.gov/txtfiles/165476.txt

That uses 1994 data, and doesn't disclose how that information is obtained?

So in 2013, we want to use 19 year old data, to say that 40% of gun sales occur without a FFL check. Keep in mind, this data uses a pretty rough estimation. Here's the language from the actual study (and not the bullshit repeating you hear on the news):

My personal experience also calls this aged data in to doubt. The vast majority of purchases I've encountered required a FFL.

And do you have a source for the 75% of NRA members thing? I'm plugged in to the community and I would be very surprised if that is the case.

P.S. I'm going to regret posting in this thread.
--- merged: Jan 15, 2013 5:51 AM ---

Only problem: Gun Free Zones highlight the victims' inability to fight back.

Fort Hood (guns strictly regulated on base--must be kept in armory, no CCW), VA Tech, Columbine, Sandy Hook. Carrying a firearm in these places makes you a felon.
--- merged: Jan 15, 2013 5:57 AM ---

You know Dux, I've thought about that--but one high profile shooting recently highlights even the Police's poor marksmanship (the Empire State Shooting).

Would you prefer a training standard that requires civilians to outshoot the NYPD? The issue I have with mandatory standards, you can effectively de facto ban carry permits by instituting impossibly high standards.

 

The data on gun shows were from ATF studies, the most recent being 2000.

We can disagree on the actual percentage but does it really change the need for closing the loophole if it is only 20% or even 10%? It is not a cure all, but one piece that might keep guns out of the hands of those who should not have them.

The lack of state reporting of those with mental illnesses is the greater problem and, IMO, reporting needs to be mandatory.

The source of the 75% of NRA members supporting background checks is from a Luntz (Republican polling company) poll for Bloomberg's group.

There is very strong support for criminal background checks and CCW training:​

• 74 percent support requiring criminal background checks of anyone purchasing a gun.
• 74 percent believe permits should only be granted to applicants who have completed gun safety training.

Other recent polls on broader public views background check:

ABC News/Wash Post (Jan 10)- 88% support law requiring background checks on all​

purchases​

Pew Research Center (Jan 9) - 85% support making private gun sales and all sales at gun shows subject to background checks​

USA Today/Gallup (Dec 22) - 92% support law requiring background checks for all sales at gun shows​

Few public policy issues receive this level of bi-partisan support.

Regarding the incidents you cite, I can twist those around and point out that all of the recent mass shootings involved semi automatic weapons with high capacity clips or magazines and that there is no evidence to suggest that armed civilians would have prevented these shootings from occurring.

Something more than superficial training for the safe use of a weapon, including when/if to act when not directly confronted by an armed person seems like common sense to me.

To take a step further, I certainly dont want to see reciprocity among state CCW laws where a resident of a state with virtually no training can carry in a state with strict training requirements.

--- merged: Jan 15, 2013 at 10:01 AM ---
You are basically taking the NRA position on these issues that no greater background checks or reporting or training would make a difference.

I would ask how you know.

Just like I have asked why banning high capacity clips/magazines wont make a difference. Having the capacity to fire 2-3 (or more) rounds per second vs not having that capacity seems like common sense to me as well (perhaps some of those kids shot multiple times might have survived...who knows?)

My belief is that even if the difference is only marginal, it means fewer deaths of innocent victims of gun violence.
--- merged: Jan 15, 2013 at 10:29 AM ---
Here is another interesting fact (from 2005 DOJ/FBI data).

The highest known occurrence of gun homicides is not as a result of the commission of a felony (1,784) or gang related (896), but as a result of arguments (domestic violence, bar fights, other confrontations between friends/family or persons unknown?) (2,943) .... other (1,191) and unknown (4,532)

 

Ann Coulter - Guns dont kill people, non-white people kill people

 

If unrestricted concealed carry and eliminating "gun free zones" is part of the solution (the gun rights position), why do most gun shows ban bringing loaded firearms into the building?

A list of the 51 gun shows scheduled this month that explicitly ban people from carrying loaded firearms:

1. Oklahoma City Gun Show (January 11-12)​

2. ABBA Shriners Gun & Knife Show (January 12-13)​

3. Gibraltar Taylor Gun & Knife Show (January 11-13)​

4. Akron Gun Show (January 12-13)​

5. Binghamton Gun & Knife Show (January 12-13)​

6. Dalton Gun Show (January 12-13)​

7. Dayton (Vandalia) Airport Expo (January 12-13)​

8. Farmington Gun Show* (January 12-13)​

9. Ft. Lauderdale Gun Show (January 12-13)​

10. Germantown Gun & Knife Show* (January 12-13)​

11. Kansas City Gun Show* (January 12-13)​

12. Maitland Gun Show (January 12-13)​

13. Mesa Gun Show (January 12-13)​

14. Morehead Gun Show* (January 12-13)​

15. Nashville Gun Show (January 12-13)​

16. San Angelo Gun & Blade Show (January 12-13)​

17. San Francisco Gun Show (January 12-13)​

18. Wichita Cessna Gun Show* (January 12-13)​

19. Las Vegas Shot Show (January 15-18)​

20. Ft. Pierce Gun Show (January 19-20)​

21. Gonzales Gun Show (January 19-20)​

22. Hendersonville Gun Show* (January 19-20)​

23. Jackson Gun & Knife Show* (January 19-20)​

24. Jacksonville Florida Gun Show (January 19-20)​

25. Jefferson Gun Show (January 19-20)​

26. Marietta Jim Miller Park Gun Show* (January 19-20)​

27. Miami Florida Gun Show (January 19-20)​

28. Paducah Gun Show* (January 19-20)​

29. Phoenix Gun Show (January 19-20)​

30. Springfield Gun Show* (January 19-20)​

31. Topeka Gun Show* (January 19-20)​

32. Venice Gun and Knife Show (January 19-20)​

33. Des Moines Gun Show (January 25-27)​

34. Canandaigua Gun Show (January 26-27)​

35. Carlsbad Gun & Blade Show (January 26-27)​

36. Costa Mesa Gun Show (January 26-27)​

37. Fort Myers Gun, Knife, Civil War & Militaria Show (January 26-27)​

38. Goodman Dayton Gun & Knife Show (January 26-27)​

39. Gun Show in the Smokies* (January 26-27)​

40. Kingman Gun, Knife, Coin & Collectibles Show & Sale (January 26-27)​

41. Lawrenceville Gun Show* (January 26-27)​

42. Macon Gun Show (January 26-27)​

43. New Orleans Area Gun & Knife Show (January 26-27)​

44. Oklahoma City Gun and Knife Show* (January 26-27)​

45. Palmetto Gun Show (January 26-27)​

46. Pensacola Florida Gun Show (January 26-27)​

47. Sedalia Gun Show* (January 26-27)​

48. Tulsa Gun Show* (January 26-27)​

49. Watkins Glen Gun & Knife Show (January 26-27)​

50. Wichita Coliseum Gun Show* (January 26-27)​

51. Wichita Falls Gun & Knife Show (January 26-27)​

*- Events sponsored by R.K. Shows Inc confirmed that loaded weapons, even for those with concealed carry permits, are prohibited.

 

It's because there's thousands of guns being handled. Duh.... Plus everyone I've been to have had loaded gun bans, but believe me there's a ton of people concealed carrying loaded. There's no metal detector or pat downs. They just don't want someone to forget to unload a gun that people are inspecting to but.

 

It looks to me like they dont want a gun nut coming in to their shows armed and dangerous.

But they dont want schools or theaters or malls to have the same protections as gun free zones.

 

i think you missed my point. it isn't about disarming ccw at the shows. if they actually cared if you concealed carry a loaded weapon they would use a metal detector or frisk you. im saying there's a ton of people that are concealed carry there. so your statement:

doesn't hold any water.

 

So, the "regulations" are just a facade and everyone ignores them. I see.

When they ask you to leave the ammo in the car and hand the gun in on entry that's just a joke?

Yes, sounds responsible to me.

 

people are making a huge deal about this. you just lay the gun on the table open the chamber, they put a colored twist tie through it so everyone walking around knows when you hand it to them it's unloaded. pretty simple deal. they aren't disarming any concealed weapons at least at the 6 that i've been too. it's just an assurance for people handling them. sheesh....

feel like a mountain is being made out of a mole hill.

 

yes! exactly. if they were concerned about gun nuts no one would get through the door haha.

 

No, of course they aren't worried about psychopaths. They simply recognise that there is a risk associated with people carrying loaded weapons and their insurance doesn't cover them for that risk - so they would be liable.

I'm not talking about the weapons that are for sale. I'm talking about CCW holders. That is why they cannot carry a loaded weapon in there either.

 

I agree it is primarily a liability issue.

But on a related issue, why are guns the only consumer product whose manufacturers have (limited) liability protection for crimes committed with their product?

Oh I know! Because the NRA has become a front group for gun manufacturers, not gun safety.

 

i dont know, why you would want to hold the manufacturer liable? they are designed to kill people. i can't think of a reason to punish remington for a crime committed with their shotgun, that sounds pretty dumb. we dont hold ford responsible for vehicular manslaughter, do we (i honestly dont know)?

can you give me an example of another type of product that is liable for crimes with their product? i'm not familiar with this.