Politics Gaza

Is it possible to separate the ascension of Hamas from the actions of Israel?

 

I will quote Golda Meir... " Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us."

Or when they put the concept of a viable two-state solution over the desire to remove Israel from the region.

 

I take exception to that quote. It assumes a lot about a very large and dissimilar group of people. And supports a rather sentimentally warped fairy tale version of what is happening in the middle east.

 

7:55 P.M. Interior Minister Eli Yishai on Israel's operation in Gaza: "The goal of the operation is to send Gaza back to the Middle Ages. Only then will Israel be calm for forty years."


variation: 'We must blow Gaza back to the middle ages, destroying all infrastructure including roads and water."


LIVE BLOG: IDF prepares for ground invasion as Gaza offensive enters fourth day - Israel News | Haaretz Daily Newspaper

 

I agree that is is sentimental and an over simplification of the issues.

But look at recent polls of Palestinians (one from last year):

Is their hatred justified? Perhaps to some extent (and perhaps manipulated and reinforced by their leaders to some extent).

Will clinging to that hatred so tightly help bring resolution in the region? From my admitted biased perspective, I think not.

 

attitudes follow the political situation. if you were palestinian and living in either the west bank or gaza, you'd not find israel to be awesome.

the situation brutalizes all sides.

 

Who has more power to ease the suffering of the Palestinians? Israel or Hamas?

 

The best answer would be moderate Israelis and Palestinians. And there are many on both sides; unfortunately they are not in a position to do so.
--- merged: Nov 17, 2012 at 2:48 PM ---

RB...the attitudes began in 1948...and were manipulated by Arab leaders throughout the region for their personal political gain.

 

the game changed basically after 1967.
that was the origin point of the israeli occupation. that squandered any moral capital israel might previously have had.
the conventional narrative inevitably tries to erase 67 as a turning point. but that's wrong.

 

I dont dispute that.

And since 67, Israel has negotiated peace treaties with Egypt (1979) and Jordan (1994).

Obviously, a treaty with Palestinians will require Israel to concede much more (and they should) but when have they had a Palestinian leader with whom to negotiate? One who hasnt called for the destruction of Israel. There was a brief sliver of hope with Fatah. There is no hope with Hamas.

 

creating this situation of "who are we going to talk to?" was a centerpiece for sharon's government around 2001.
that move opened the space for hamas.
and the situation with hamas is entirely circular. the israeli military state became responsible for that directly from the decision to lay siege to gaza.

what appears to be the case is that the israeli state, controlled by the right, has no interest in doing fuck all to get the peace they claim to want. continuous war is good for business. it's an easy way to generate political consent.

i don't see anything remotely like a way out of the larger situation of israeli colonialism unless the left comes to power. which seems unlikely given this situation. which is, perhaps, the point of it.

 

The '94 Oslo Accords, while flawed and far from perfect (and some might say too one-sided in Israel's favor), may have been a framework for something approaching a lasting peace, but never had the widespread public support on either side. And were ultimately sabotaged by both Sharon/Netenyahu and Arafat (a signator)/Hamas and the Second Intifada.

The left in Israel is not the left of Rabin. I dont put much faith in Shelly Yachimovich, the new Labor Party leader.

 

The Yeshiva World LIVE BLOG DAY 4: Operation Pillar Of Defense [UPDATED 11:59PM IL] « » Frum Jewish News

a source for the eli yishai quote above. its at 7:43. the person on twitter from whom i bit it provided this link. am looking for a transcript.

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Israel Steps Up Aerial Strikes in Gaza - NYTimes.com

just in case you thought i was joking earlier when i said the situation in the strip suits israel just fine. the palestinian civilians who get killed as a result of that, not so much.

 

That's not really an apt comparison though. Israel's relationship with Gaza is one of occupier to occupied. If you look at countries currently occupied by the US, I think you'd find that attacks involving rockets or their approximate equivalents are regular occurrences.

 

a ny times editorial on hamas is like a bbc editorial about the ira.
rather than hurting hamas, israel's attacks on civilians are having the opposite effect.

as a backgrounder, this is more accurate:
Colonial Experiments in Gaza

and here's a bit of a proportionality check:

Gaza conflict: ceasefire talks intensify - live updates | World news | guardian.co.uk ​

 

Eugene Robinson's piece (emphasis mine) in the Post sums it up for me:

When will the Israelis elect a leader truly committed to tough concessions, including giving up land and dismantling settlements, necessary for peace?

When will the Palestinians elect a leader who will channel their anger over oppression in a more constructive manner, putting peaceful co-existing over an extremist fundamental religious belief of removing Israel from the map?

 

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and we live in a world where numbers like these add up.
what we can take from this is that some lives hold much greater value over others.
so it's not bad enough that the cards are stacked so unfairly against one group of people - people who are forced to live under occupation and deprivation. they also have to realize that much of the world believes that the lives of their own children are worth only a fraction of the lives of the children up the street. and yet, we should feel sorry for the civilized folks in Israel who are beset upon by the animals of Gaza.
it makes me physically ill. the world is fucking crazy.

 

Big things have to change to do any good over there. Or you will just get the same thing over and over.

Luckily the Iron Dome thing is working well, and the rockets are becoming pointless.

I would say that Egypt should take over control of the Gaza Strip (it would be part of Egypt), and the West Bank should become Palestine. Then maybe the situation would improve a little.

The religious people spouting hate are the ones who are the problem over there.