females, feminists and femininity.

Really. I thought I only don't respect myself for seeing people as sexual objects

 

Very very true! I constantly realize that - I just read a Wonderful quote on the same lines in a tfpers signature and went into lot of thinking.

 

+1

The women who are my life are very strong and are not feminists.

Feminism could be a wide spectrum. Some are lovable. Some could be just an opposite of male chauvinism.

 

I don't get the connection here. I'm not talking about pick ups in bars. I'm talking about changing attitudes. Big picture.

I think it's great that you are all these things. I appreciate that. But I don't pull these impressions I have out of thin air. They're based on things I see and hear and read. I don't think it's stepping on men to talk about these things. And I think to imply that is dismissive. It's like you want to stifle the discussion because it's is not your attitude and it hurts your feelings to hear a woman express these things about men. Well, you know, instead of turning on me and telling me how I wrong I am, perhaps you should be talking to males and encouraging them to be more like you.
--- merged: Nov 21, 2013 at 6:05 AM ---
And, for the record, if you're seeing someone that you think is sexually attractive and you are noticing all of these other things about them that are cool, interesting, admirable, etc., you are not seeing them as a sexual object.
--- merged: Nov 21, 2013 at 6:55 AM ---
I have more to say in response to your post, rogue, but it's really early and it will take a while for the thoughts to gel and then I have to go to work and I have a really busy day tomorrow helping my sister with some things then a date tomorrow night and then a writing project and a test to study for over the weekend. In other words, not sure when I will be following up. Just wanted to let you know that I am thinking on your post and will get back with you.

 

That was a nice read. Sharing it on my facebook page.

 

Is it possible that some of the disconnect that I am feeling here comes from this:

When you first meet/see a person, there is nothing more to judge them on other than surface. In this context, it is easy to objectify them.
As you get to know them, your relationship (if you can call it that) should develop. You fill in the blanks with actual information. No longer is the guy a tight ass in a pair of jeans or the woman a pair of breasts. They are increasingly a fully realized person.

It has been suggested here (and I agree) that many men, when dealing with women, stay in "the first meet/see" phase even when they have moved well into the getting to know you, to know you phase. They continue to see the breasts and ignore/diminish the rest.

I think it is very difficult for men to hold both contexts at the same time -- sex object/fully formed subject -- in their head at the same time.

We've talked about seeing someone's naked pictures and then not being able to see them as anything other than a sex object thereafter. I know I struggle with this and I am sure it has a lot to do the media we consume and how women are placed in that media. From porn to advertising there are countless ways in which women are served up to us as blank slates upon which we can fill in our desires. Does one really care about the backstory of the porn one is wanking over? Why would you? I am imposing my fantasies upon an image... it's about me, not her.

Seeing someone you know pose naked, can place that person in the context of objectification. I can say that it makes me uncomfortable to see people I know this way. I don't know if it's that I find myself objectifying the person in the photo (a person that I wouldn't normally see this way) or realizing that naked women are more than just objects for building your fantasies around. It's a break in the established norms. Men don't like to think about and don't like to talk about it.

I don't know if I have this right, I am still thinking about it.

 

I'm following along with that. It's interesting. Thanks for posting, Charles.

 

I am at work right now, but you can be sure that i have a reply to this. It's funny how this thread fails to be able to concentrate on my observations, but, rather me. And no, it isn't always like this. I've been having this same conversation with multiple people incl. Men and not all of them take exception to what i am saying. So while you are telling me not to 'blame all men' (which i am not) why don't you try not speaking for all of them as well.

 

On the other hand, you know, one thing i have learned in my life (particularly here) is that some conversations are worth having and others are not. I'm not going to spend this evening defending myself to you. You think whatever you like. I don't agree with your assessments and it serves absolutely no purpose to haggle and quibble with you over the definitions of terms i use in my thread and whether i am being fair to 7 billion men or not. I mean, jesus, i honestly don't care enough to put the effort in.

 

So I've had a few discussions with a few people about this recently, so I feel like I understand some of the lingo now. Culturally, I don't think I can argue with the MM's generalizations. It may seem pretentious, but many of the people who last around here are the ones willing to put thought into our actions and beliefs, and we don't have a high tolerance of those who are abusive to others. It follows then, that a lot of the men on here aren't the ones that MM is describing. But culturally, generally, I couldn't deny some of the assertions that she's making. I don't think we could deny that our society is male-dominated, and that men experience a certain privilege. I see the attitudes that she's describing all the time.

Though we've already clarified there wasn't anger in this post, why should we limit the scope of the discussion to specific selfish men? I am a man, and I will admit that the attitudes described aren't the exception. The men who take the time to consider how they view women in regards to sexuality are the exception. I'll concede that sometimes those of us who do get a bum rap and get lumped in with negative stereotypes about men. Instead of getting offended and defensive, we should use it as an opportunity to examine why those stereotypes exist.

I'll even go so far as to say that a good number of men have their own societal perceptions, prejudices, and unfair social norms to overcome, but I don't think that is what this thread is about. What I don't seem to understand is why so much of this discussion has been defending men from accusations of behavior, when that behavior is obviously prevalent. Considerate men are out there, we exist, but we're not the topic of discussion.

 

Wow. I am speechless and dumbfounded. Thank you so much for acknowledging what I thought seemed obvious. I'm serious. I'm really grateful. Thank you.

 

You want to talk about dismissive? Look at your own behavior. You're doing exactly what you attack others for doing. Anyone who disagrees with you, with your opinions, with your generalizations, is shut down with accusations that they're attacking you, they're off topic, they're turning on you.

You act like your view is the right view. Your posts take it as a given that the REAL problem is we can't stand to hear a woman tell the "truth" about men. Your posts frame this in terms of "stifling the discussion" and "turning on you". Your posts are written as if they must be speaking gospel truth, there's no dissent or debate tolerated. You even complain about people disagreeing with you. I mean really, how dare they have a different opinion. In what world is that possibly a legitimate complaint? I'll answer that for you: In a Gynonormative one, where women are right, men are wrong.

Anyone who disagrees just has "hurt feelings" because they can't stand to "hear a woman express these things about men". But of course you're the real victim here, they're the ones "stifling discussion". They're the ones being "dismissive". They're the ones "turning on you" and "telling you how wrong you are".


Deny. Attack. Reverse Victim and Offender.

I won't admit that. In fact I strenuously argue the opposite. The overwhelming majority of all men are not sexist neanderthals barely capable of controlling their dicks, and it's patent sexism to act like they are or to even tolerate someone spreading that hateful filth. "Sure it's wrong, sure it's bigoted, sure they're hateful stereotypes, but you should really examine WHY they exist"... in what world does it make sense to tell that to anyone? You don't ever justify bigotry, regardless of who is on the giving or receiving end. That's the very definition of victim blaming.

The fact that you even consider it acceptable, along with Mixed's increasingly hostile and combatitive behavior, leads right into the next point:

I mentioned Toxic Femininity several pages back. This, all of this, is it in a nutshell and that's why it's all relevant. The perpetuation of the (All/Most-)Men-Are-Monsters-Women-Are-Victims narrative is vital to toxic femininity. Just look at Mixed's increasingly hostile and direct attacks. She's openly attacking people for as little as disagreeing with her in and of itself, but her posts still cling to the idea that she's the real victim here.

All of this is a direct symptom of the toxic and destructive modern definition of femininity. Gynonormativity defines the female position as the right position. Mixed can't be wrong, men must simply have "hurt feelings" and can't stand to "hear a woman express these things about men". And that ties right into the weaponization of victimhood, and equating femininity with victimization. Women are victims, men are perpetrators. That's why this is all relevant. It's not just "defending men" just like pointing out misogynistic attitudes prevalent in toxic masculinity isn't just "defending women". That "obvious prevalence" is a belief directly borne of the cultural narrative that Women-Are-Victims Men-Are-Perpetrators, a core component of toxic femininity.

If this is starting to sound circular it's because it is: Attack, Deny attack, Reverse Victim and Offender to establish Victim Cred, Attack from behind the shield of gender and the high ground of victimhood, Deny attack because Women-Are-Victims, Reverse Victim and Offender based on that and re-establish Victim Cred...


This thread was made to talk about Females, Feminists, and Femininity. Not everyone shares the gynonormative view that Femininity is always right, female opinions and statements always true, and females are always victims while males always perpetrators. So when someone makes a sexist statement based squarely in that gynonormative worldview and borne directly of a toxic definition of femininity there's going to be disagreement, including a rebuttal. If someone made a thread about masculinity and said something misogynistic nobody would think twice about disputing that statement. The way this thread has turned out on the other hand just further reinforces my point about just how deeply ingrained and destructive our definition of femininity is.


Now, cue the next round of victim/offender reversal, accusations I'm off topic, attacks that I'm a misogynist, must have a grudge against women, or am going after Mixed personally.

 

This is really just funny to me now. I'm obviously not the one with an axe to grind. Have fun, gentlemen.

 

Then explain the big picture you are talking about in which individuals/groups cannot interact act with each other in respectful ways while basing their interaction only on one facet of the other party?

Are we simply talking past each other, addressing two different things?

 

I am not sure why men are so defensive when faced with someone shining a light on societal norms. I would argue this isn't about men being bad vs. good per se. It's more about recognizing that there is a normative behaviour that we all engage in. All. Some of us are aware of it and others aren't.

We could have a similar discussion about racism. It's in us all. To state otherwise is just denial.

It's what we do in the face of that knowledge that makes us different.

Look deeper.

 

What I am saying is that people can be nice and respectful of each other without actually respecting each other. In your scenario the fact that they were nice to each other doesn't say anything about their underlying attitudes. In that scenario she could be asking him questions about his job and be thinking 'I wonder how big his dick is.' In other words, her surface behavior is not really reflecting what she is thinking. And if that is going on it is very likely that he has picked up on it and is developing his own attitude toward her that is not reflected in their idle chit-chat.

I would go on talking about my experiences in the last three months of dating which have been a study in this sort of thing because the dates are basically a pre-planned version of the scenario you suggested above, but I think I'm done here for a while. Maybe it's because I've seen so much heavy shit in the last year or so but my priorities have changed and these kinds of arguments are not as important to me now. I would seriously rather use the small amount of time I have this morning to listen to Sir-Mix-a-Lot and look for old porn.

I think it's kind of amazing that out of all people you and I have managed to stay friendly on this thread. Weird world.