females, feminists and femininity.

Very true. When I was 5 I tripped and fell and my left cheek caught a rusty nail. I was in a tiny town at my grandmothers house, and she didn't want to "worry" my mom, so she took me to the ER herself and they stitched me up and stopped the bleeding.

I was traumatized. One day I was a fairly normal cute little girl, and the next day I was Frankenstein. I hated all of the questions, teasing, gossip and rumors that followed me for years due to the scar on my face. I begged my mom to take me to a cosmetic surgeon in 8th grade and he reopened the cut, removed some of the scar tissue and today, at 36, I rarely notice it. I wish my mom hasn't waited so long to let me have it fixed, because I know it screwed with my self esteem.

I know that's not what you were referring to, but it's an example of how cosmetic surgery can be good.

Aside from that, I've never yearned for more procedures or work.

Injectables and fillers are a different story. But I do believe some women take even those too far and end up looking ridiculous. But, if it makes them feel good about themselves, who am I to judge?

 

I know that make-up is not something that is new same as many of the things that are purported to be feminine. Yes, it precedes Madison Avenue. That's not really the point, though. Ideals of femininity were 'sold' long before we had television and newspapers and magazines. Yes. What we are seeing now is the continuation of the sale via the marketplace of the capitalist system. It's still the same pitch, though. My point was certainly not to make people feel defensive about their beauty habits but to think about them. I wear make-up occasionally. I put stuff in my hair to make my curls more defined. I wear lotion and scents and deodorants made for women. I like to feel pretty. I just also happen to like questioning these things.

And, yes, cosmetic surgery is natural divergence at this point. I have a very low tolerance for the practice of cosmetic surgery when it is not being used to repair deformity or trauma. Personally, rather than spend a lot of money on cosmetic surgery, I think that people who choose it would be better served by investing in the services of other health professionals such as nutritionists and psychologists.
(I think cosmetic surgery also speaks to our general lack of confidence in our ability to change ourselves and our inability to delay gratification, as well.)

 

I can see both sides of the cosmetic surgery debate.

Take a woman who feels insecure about her breast size. Yes, she may benefit from mental health sessions to realize that she is indeed more than her breast size. But if she undergoes the cosmetic surgery to obtain a size that makes her feel better about herself, why give her grief over it? Two different paths to the same end result, is it not?

It may not be my choice; but if it were, would you view me differently?

 

But suppose increased breast size is not the answer to the problem? Why do so many people go back to the plastic surgeon after one alteration? Do I think that making superficial surgical alterations has the same beneficial effect of understanding yourself and your motivations better? Of changing your habits and working for the appearance that you desire? No, I don't.

So, no, I don't think it's the same result. Not at all.

I'm not talking about individuals here, I'm talking about cosmetic surgery and what motivates society to use it. I'm not making judgments on anyone.

 

Not sure you can change any habits and just grow bigger breasts though.

 

That's not the point I am trying to make. Not being happy with the size of your breasts is not a normal, healthy state of being. And opting to undergo a major surgery in order to place implants inside your body (with all the risk that entails) to have larger breasts is not a normal, healthy alternative. At least it shouldn't be.
--- merged: Nov 12, 2013 at 11:03 AM ---
And I will modify that statement by allowing that breast reductions are a different story and are most often performed for health reasons (ie, pain and back problems).

 

I've had a breast reduction and did it for purely health reasons. I was a 36-38 I, and am now a 36-38 DD/DDD (depending on the brand). I am much happier and healthier, and I don't feel like I lost any femininity. I lost a lot of male attention, but that didn't surprise me.

 

OK. Everyone. I am not singling out YOU.

My belief, and it has morphed though the decades as society has itself morphed, is that what an adult does to his or her body is a personal choice.

But I'm going to play devil's advocate and put this out.

If getting the tip of your nose trimmed for appearance sake warrants getting mental health help or nutritional counseling (first), then what about piercings, what about tattoos? Piercings and tattoos in Western society are purely cosmetic and require that one undergo pain and risk.

I wonder when I look at people, not just women, with a swath of piercings and/or tattoos if they are not pain junkies. Yes, I question if they do not have a larger emotional and/or mental health issue. I do not judge (look down upon) them. But the question runs through my mind and there it remains.

So does a woman or man who is unhappy with an aspect of their appearance need professional mind/body help and does this apply to altering once's appearance in any permanent physical way?

 

I've often wondered that too. Some will say they are addictive, so maybe there's some truth to that.

But, it's their body at the end of the day - not mine.

 

Well, of course, you know I have tattoos. So I'll be happy to address this with a couple questions of my own.

Did I feel less attractive without the tattoos?
No.

Would I go under general anesthesia to get the tattoos?
No.

Did I get the tattoos to conform to an ideal of beauty that makes me feel inadequate?
No.

I'm sorry if what I said hit a nerve, but it happens to be what I think is true. I don't think that body modification is the same thing as body conformity so you can't really compare them. They are two distinct motivations. Both can be extreme and both can be what I consider to be harmful. But you'd have to do some extreme modification to get to the same level of risk as going under anesthesia and having someone slice up your face or place implants under your skin. You don't see nearly as much extremity in the realm of body modification to the extent that you do in the more socially acceptable realm of plastic surgery. Not nearly.
--- merged: Nov 12, 2013 at 6:55 PM ---
And let me say this while I am thinking it, as well. There's no need for folks to get so riled up because I suggested that a psychologist could help them with the impulse to get plastic surgery. In fact, I think most everyone (including me) could do with a little help from a psychologist. The world would be a much healthier, less dysfunctional place if we all got a little CBT now and then.

 

My take on the media/Madison Avenue/etc. is that it (they?) play a large role in sculpting how we all think about ourselves. The media we consume, both passively and actively, provides us with images against which we constantly compare and contrast ourselves.

To be clear, I think it is more complicated than a direct correlation between what we see and how we see ourselves but there are many connections and they run deep.

 

Without the tags working it is had to know to whom we are speaking <confusing>.
I wish this conversation to grow as far as it can and whenever and wherever we can to insert personal experience and opinions. I think the biggie is no judging folks on the board and that is pretty much a TFP thing that I think we are doing a really great of job here. <my 2 cents is worth just that >
No harm, no foul.

I empathize with MM's dislike of cosmetic procedures. I don't like to see perfectly healthy folks undergoing a unnecessary surgical procedure. I think maybe our feelings about what is "necessary" is where the line can separating us (the larger us--society).

Going back to pressure felt by modern women to let's say in my case, cease to appear to be almost 54 y.o. I am nearly that and to me I should look my age. I get a funny feeling inside when I tell someone my age and they tell me I don't look it. It's like, not looking being 54 is a compliment! But I am--why shouldn't I look it? I feel like it is a negative to be who I am. Well, eff that!

Should I get fillers? Or get my chin wobblies ironed out? Should I fight against aging as the ads suggest I do? Nope. Not going to do it. But that is my choice. Full disclosure (sorry, I know I've said so elsewhere): I am a heart failure patient. The rules are: no unnecessary surgical procedures. So back when I was 38, I was let off the hook for even considering a boob lift, which given gravity's lack of forgiveness and my weight fluctuations would be the one procedure that I might contemplate, if I could. I hate getting cut, though. It's one of my 'things.' I've had 2 Cesareans--I healed fine but I'm not fond of adding any more scars to my repertoire.

As far as the surface me, yes, I feel less attractive when my giant raccoon under-eye areas are hanging out in the sunlight. Sunglasses take care of that and do double duty for my super sensitive contact lens-wearing eyes (without them, I am legally blind). So cosmetic and functional. I'm on a host of medications and my lips dry out. I use lip conditioner quite often in my waking hours--does it matter if it is tinted? I do like to have some colour on my lips and I've been that way since I played around with the 23 different shades of Revlon red lipstick that my mom kept in her beauty cabinet. Was I bending to Madison Ave--or just wanting to look a bit my like my Mom when I did so at age 2?

Again, I'm not gonna judge. I may worry if someone I care about goes on a binge of cosmetic surgery or injections or gets mega piercings or has monthly appointments at the tattoo parlour. But to each, his or her own. Adults are allowed to make these choices for themselves.

 

Let alone any cosmetic surgery.

 

Yes, I think that's very true. There have been a few times in my life when I have re-watched something in adulthood that I connected with as a child (and as a female) - it could be a movie or a tv show or an image in a book or magazine or an album cover - and I will realize that that image still has an impact on my mannerisms and how I perceive myself today. I'll have an 'oh wow, that's me' moment. It's kind of freaky to realize.

 

On one hand, I think that cosmetic surgery could be taken in a similar vein to piercings and tattoos, in order to make you look how you want, in a form of self expression. On the other hand, I very rarely think that is the case, and most of the time problems with self-image are at play.
Relevant:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHcwoCy_ZHA

 

I can only speak for myself and I have no doubt that many people get tattoos and piercings as a means of conformity, but for many of us it is a means of self-expression. My tattoos signify positive feelings that I have about myself. I would be very eager to hear how plastic surgery to alter features of your body that you are born with signifies the same positive feelings.

 

Perhaps this conversation is a good candidate for breaking off into its own thread.

 

IMHO Makeup is great as long as the woman herself enjoys wearing it. Not out of compulsion or pressure.

Hmm with all due respect I find most girls security when they are just or of shower with their fresh skin or say they just finished their jogging or telling with all their pores open. .. Really saying. ...