females, feminists and femininity.

Your style of debate just rubs me the wrong way. Baraka pretty much hit the nail on the head, though. I don't like having to bear the brunt of everything you've read and heard when it's just us here saying things that are pretty damn egalitarian and reasonable. I don't know of a single person on this thread that is purporting extreme views on feminism. Therefore, to see you get all bent out of shape and then start talking about this group or that website that is 'unreasonable' or 'extreme' and expect people here to answer for it, well, it sort of puts me in a bad spot because it (deliberately?) makes talking about everyday feminism impossible.

 

I'm sorry MM, but you started a thread partially about feminism.

If I can't bring up issues I see with the feminist movement here, where else? If you want only everyday feminism discussed, maybe that should have been more clear at the beginning.

And to make it clear, I don't hold any of you accountable for the issues I bring up. Nor do I get bent out of shape towards you guys (you'd notice the slew of insults directed at all of you) in this thread. I simply want insight and possible provision of explanations. Should there be no insight to be given by the thread participants, a simple statement of the same is more than enough.

It's regrettable that my style of debate doesn't go down well with you, but I had (and sometimes still have) the exact same issue with you. Mutuality, ahoy!

 

That's fine. But I, for one, don't really have anything to say about extremist feminism. And, honestly, I am so tired of it being used to de-legitimize feminism that I have a short fuse when it starts getting brought up because it is a classic smoke screen. Most feminists want simple things. Not a drastic re-writing of society. And most of those things most people would agree with if they would just stop reacting all the time. Women have a debatable amount of equality today because of feminism. Saying that we don't need it now is akin to saying that we no longer need democracy because we (sort of) achieved that. It's a state of how things are and should be. Not just a political movement.

 

Yes that is allowed.

 

Could you identify those glass ceilings and how women are being excluded just because of their gender?

For example, I'm in the medical field. Currently MORE women are becoming doctors than men. You will see several studies claiming that women doctors make less money than men. This is true. What none of them take into account is women doctors work less hours then men. Medicine is a field where you can often set your own hours. It allows women to raise families and have a career so is very appealing to many. Making less money is a choice, not forced because of gender.

This is a often cited imaginary glass ceiling.

 

Have you ever considered that more men are better as said jobs than women? When IQ is looked at, men make up more of the worlds geniuses and for that matter more of the idiots. Men have a wider spread. Should it be shocking then that more men are found in places where high IQ is a benefit?

Until it can be shown that a 5-7% pay difference is because of gender bias, all we have is a unproven theory. It could be as simple as women as a population are less likely to pursue a raise.

 

I would just like to point out, as I don't think it was crystal clear in my previous message, this is a very Western-centric thread.

I am okay with that, but when we make declarative statements about the state of women, especially if we are saying things like, "we are all equal" we are purposefully excluding a significant chunk of the world.

 

My mom was always quick to say she wasn't a feminist. She thought of it as I don't know what. Something bad? Something I'm not sure...But she IS a feminist. She pioneered the way for women in her work field. She did amazing things. She out earned my father during their marriage and after. She designed her life they way she wanted it. She didn't listen to anyone who said she couldn't do something. She just did it.

When I asked her (after she said she wasn't), why she wouldn't support women's rights - to choose, to earn equal wages, to have control - I saw a marked shift in her. I saw the light come on and it was a beautiful thing. She finally got it. It was awesome.

 

What's funny is I wasn't even referring that load of obvious. I was simply referring to glass ceilings, what it means to be a woman, etc. All of these things that get taken for granted are treated very differently in many parts of the planet that are not The West.

 

Thanks - For me who lived most of life outside US, its hard to accept many statements here! But I deliberately prefer to talk global than my land.

For example, Women own only 1% of the world's land (source). Inequality to the core.

Correction: only 1 percent of the world’s women own land. The point still stands.

 

(Oops, I missed part of the preceding message. Never mind.)

 

In that case there is hardly anyone in my life who are not feminists. Every one in my circle had constantly enabled girls in our life to use their full potential. But none of these would people call themselves feminists. The term is twisted. I just now explained the dictionary version of the term to my wife and she says "then you are a feminist".

 

Yea about that...
Odds are when something smells like BS, its BS.

'Women Own 1% of World Property': A Feminist Myth That Won't Die - Philip Cohen - The Atlantic

This is one of those things that just will continue on with no proof at all, it also doesn't apply to first world nations in the least.

 

There's this, too. Same author.

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/11/23/how-can-we-jump-start-the-struggle-for-gender-equality/?_r=0

I don't believe that says anything about IQs, but rather what we as a society value. And that is part of the problem.