Etiquette and common courtesy

I've just gotten around to reading some of the other responses.

A question to those of you who consider davynn rude and judgmental in her opinion of the high volume masticator.

If you were in a small cafe where the tables were uncomfortably close to each other and the maitre d' sat someone at the table beside you who reeked like ass, would you judge? Would you ask for another another table? And don't say it's not the same thing.

 

Thank you Joniemack. I did what I thought was right ... no one was hurt or embarrassed. I would not have endured long in silence in any case... my friend was much less likely to do so. As for attributing virtues to Mr. "Og" that he may or may not have deserved - I would have done exactly the same thing if I'd known in advance that he was my recording angel there to test me. In fact I think I might have gotten extra credit points given the exact nature of my thoughts at the time.

 

I'm not sure, but it seems like the point your trying to make is awfully close to a very ugly sort of biological determinism.

I'm well aware of what first impressions are. The fact that people make them is not itself a justification for making them yourself. It is even less of of a justification for heartily condemning other people on the basis of those judgements. My point, at least the one most related to the part you quoted, wasn't really about the ability or justification in making a snap judgement but about the way those judgements are expressed, particularly in this thread. Look at what was said (bold=emphasis added):

Now lets look at the OP, to see this 'kindness' in action (again, bold=emphasis added):

I'm not buying the sanctimonious declaration of respect for others after berating our friend 'Og' with comments like that which were not only made in earnest, but defended. Especially comments made after such a slight encounter, or am I the only one whose parents taught me that respect for others includes giving folks the benefit of the doubt?

 

I'm reminded of Mr. Creosote

 

So do it. Why doubt the OP's account of the situation?

 

First of all, she never voiced her opinions about the man directly to him, never mind berating him with them. There's a huge difference between thinking something about someone and verbally expressing it to them. (Buddhists might disagree). Yes, she came here and revealed what those thoughts were but, so what. Who is/was harmed by it, after the fact?

In theory, we should all strive to think better thoughts than we do, especially when it comes to how we view others but the fact of the matter is, some thoughts come unbidden. They're just there, a product of who we are, how we feel, what our experiences have been. I'm sure if darynn and her friend were forced into a situation where they had to spend a great deal of time with this man, the initial assessments might change. Maybe for the better or maybe their initial impression would prove right on the money. It's neither here nor there though, as this wasn't the case.

Respect for others is revealed in one's actions. It's a tough go attempting to condemn people for thoughts which might run counter to those actions.

Does everyone deserve our respectful thoughts regardless of how their behavior affects us? Only if we set ourselves up to be perpetual carpets.

The only difference between davynn and say...you, in this instance, is that she has admitted to what she was thinking. She shouldn't haven't to defend her thoughts, only her actions and her actions were appropriate for the situation.

 

Borla, I agree that we've beat this into the ground.

For the record, I think the question of whether davynn or her friend were rude and/or judgmental is uninteresting.

In your hypothetical, I might ask for a different table. I might wait and see what the server's response was before I did anything. I'd probably be annoyed. Or, I might not care at all. Depending on the restaurant's cheese selection, that person's ass-smell could be indistinguishable from the smell of the cheese plate that I might order for an appetizer.

I'm pretty sure I wouldn't go on the internet and talk shit about the smelly person after the meal was over. I'd probably forget about the person the moment I could no longer smell them.

I think people deserve the benefit of the doubt. Maybe that makes me sound like I'm trying to be "holier than thou" but whatever. I've experienced too many instances of rushing to judgment and then feeling slightly internally ashamed when my judgments turned out to be misplaced.

Manners are a social construct. They're arbitrary. And while nobody likes feeling uncomfortable, I think that it is important to recognize a distinction between discomfort that arises from objectively uncomfortable experiences and discomfort that is derived solely from observing someone do something you wouldn't do yourself out of a sense of propriety. This is the difference between getting angry at a bicyclist for running a red light thereby forcing you to swerve to avoid hitting them and getting angry at a cyclist for running a red light in a safe, careful manner. In the former situation, getting upset is justified, in the latter, not so much.

I think that it makes sense to react appropriately to objectively uncomfortable experiences. I think that discomfort that is derived solely from observing impropriety is a waste of energy. My view of the OP is contingent on which of these types of discomfort was in play. Was it the chewing that was so offensive, or was it the fact that dude had the audacity to chew like that in a nice restaurant?

 

I'm not davynn so I can't answer for her. Whatever the discomfort was, it was uncomfortable enough to warrant asking to be moved to another table. Maybe her friend grew up watching her father eat like that every night at the dinner table and the memory is extremely unpleasant. In that case, it would go beyond discomfort over the observance of a mere impropriety. Attempting to analyze and exact judgment on the motivation of darynn and her friend is somewhat on a par with what you are accusing them of doing.

Maybe it was a shallow reaction on their part which darynn couldn't rise above by the time she got here. My thought is that darynn was less affected by the gentleman and reacted more based on a concern for her partner. But really, I have no clue.

I automatically make certain judgments about those who are obese. I'm fully aware that I make them and that they're unfair. Yet I continue to make them, though I would never think of being so rude and disrespectful as to let an overweight person know what I was thinking unless I felt I had no choice. If I were seated on a flight next to someone "large" who encroached on my "space" I would certainly ask for a seating change, especially if it was a long flight. Part of it would definitely be due to concerns over my physical comfort but if I'm really honest, I would have to admit that I would be put off just watching them eat. I this rude or disrespectful of me? Probably and my request to be moved would probably expose my feelings. But where do we draw the line for ourselves? Or should I say, we all draw a line for ourselves. Constantly needing to explain the motivations behind where we set our boundaries is what I consider a waste of energy. Questioning them ourselves of course, is a required and on-going process.

 

Holeee shit. How many times to I gotta say that I'm not judging anyone? What's with all the convoluted versions of "I know you are but what is davynn?" responses that I'm seeing here?

Maybe. I don't know. Like I said, it doesn't interest me. I just said that it isn't something I would do.

We're on an internet discussion board talking about boundaries. If you think it's a waste of energy, no one is forcing you to participate. Further, no one is forcing anyone to "constantly explain the motivations" behind their boundaries. davynn brought it up, ostensibly for discussion purposes. If you don't think discussion is in order, that's cool.

I think the topic is interesting because it gets to the heart of how much give and take there ought to be between using discomfort as an opportunity to adapt and grow through reflection and using discomfort as an opportunity to practice being assertive.

 

I'm not sure how we got from there to here, but all right. I find this equally interesting.

I need to be more assertive and I find more than enough opportunities to do so on a daily basis. Situations seem to be constantly falling into my lap which require an assertive approach, not for the sake of practice as much as for the sake that most people just won't take the shit I'll swallow and I know it. People who go out of their way to find opportunities to exert their assertiveness have obviously already mastered the art. That sort of behavior is something else entirely. There's an arrogance to it I find distasteful. I suspect those who badger waiters and find fault with every aspect of every situation do it because they feel somewhat elevated in stature by doing so. They have issues beyond what has yet been discussed here.

I don't expect them to possess the insight necessary to reflect on their own toes let alone their behaviors and the thought processes behind them. They are the true Ogs.

So there's the assertiveness required to maintain control over one's own personal environment and there's the assertiveness for sport which isn't really assertiveness at all. I don't know darynn and her friend and I can't know for sure which of these attitudes lay behind the incident. Maybe neither. Maybe it was something else entirely.

And I agree that discomfort is an opportunity to reflect. I can't say that I always do it "in the moment" but I definitely look at the "why" behind the discomfort and my reactions to it, once the dust has settled. I assume that most of us do.

 

I see a strong relationship between your ear-spray with crappy music and a very noisy eater. Noise pollution = noise pollution. I would also draw a parallel between your enjoyment of Shostakovich and my enjoyment of a relaxed enjoyable meal and conversation.
By the way I fully understand your position even if someone suggests that you didn't react by abandoning the subway car or bus.

 

I'm pretty much done with this discussion, but gotta comment on the above.

I wouldn't judge. There are a number of reasons why a person may smell. Maybe he/she was traveling for an extensive amount of time, hasn't had the chance to shower yet and has grown very hungry. Maybe (as is often the case with people) he/she simply hasn't noticed the smell they are giving off.

Regardless of either, you, as the person being affected by the smell, have no other recourse than to relocate. What else are you going to do? Point out to him/her that he/she is smelling bad? What is that person supposed to do? Unlike chewing loudly, there is nothing that person can do about it on the spot... other than leaving the restaurant.

Apples and oranges. But I'm not supposed to point out to you that apples and oranges are different.

 

I'm equally offended by the asshole next to me at a stop light who has his bass built into the trunk of his car with the amplified vibration pushed up to maximum causing my heart to skip beats as the fillings in my teeth rattle. At those moments, I'm thankful I don't have a gun. Who are you trying to impress driving a 12 year old Honda Civic with more bondo than fender?

 

Hektore ...
I'm not buying the sanctimonious declaration of respect for others after berating our friend 'Og' with comments like that which were not only made in earnest, but defended. Especially comments made after such a slight encounter, or am I the only one whose parents taught me that respect for others includes giving folks the benefit of the doubt?[/quote]

You're not buying and I'm not selling ... do try to grasp the distinction between a forum intended for the purposes of discussion, where everyone is anonymous, and an actual physical encounter. I didn't harm a hair on Og's head ... I still do, for the purposes of discussion stand by what I think of Mr. Og's lack of manners, and also what I determined to be the most appropriate course of action, which was more than generous with regard to "the benefit of the doubt".
You are entitled to your opinion of me (sanctimonious) ... "after such a slight encounter". I'm sure that I'll survive ... or I could take a page from Mr. Og's book and simply reply ... SLOP ... SLOP ... SLOP ... SLOP .... SLOP SLOP SLOP ... SLOP!

 

Completely off-topic, but see below:

I have always wondered, why it is always (as far as I have encountered) women that bring up phrases like that in response to criticism/insults?

Phrases like "What doesn't kill me makes me...", "I'm a strong/smart/selfless person!" or the one quoted above. They seem like incredibly mundane responses that make you shake your head whenever you hear one. Plus, there really is no worth/value to proclaiming personal strength/intelligence/selflessness. Either it's evident that you are, or it isn't. I think I've read a long post by another TFP member from a while ago where he lamented in length about women who make unsolicited claims of their level of intelligence.

As in, what are the reasons to make such responses in the first place? Is there any purpose to it?

Maybe it's a thread in and of itself. Probably will get the sexist label very quickly, too.