Etiquette and common courtesy

Must be my parent's fault, eh? Because what else could it possibly have caused my lack of manners for participating in a discussion on a discussion board? There are clearly no other factors involved in determining a person's behavior and disposition.

davynn
If you post something on a discussion board, you ought to expect discussion, otherwise, why would you post it? Some of that discussion might involve people that disagree with you. If you think I'm being too boorish, well, then, you know what to do.

 

Probably was your parents fault.

 

sometimes poor manners are a matter of negligence or ignorance... othertimes its a matter of mal-intent... sometimes it happens at the dinner table, but sometimes it doesnt. sometimes it happens during discussion. or even by a lack thereof...

i briefly dated a debutante in High School, and was expected to attend a series of ettiquette courses... one thing i remembered from the few appointments i made, was that the salt and pepper should always be passed together, even if only one was requested. i asked why, adn i was told simply because good things should stay together...

Discussion is a good thing... and both sides of a discussion should stay together in the effort to learn. Discussions should not be an opportunity to seperate ideas into right and wrong, or accepted and unaccepted. They should be an opportunity to see someone elses perspective and hone your own based on what youve learned. anything else could be called, poor ettiquette...

 

I eat quietly in general and always adhere to etiquette with others. It's second nature to me and I do appreciate when someone else shows the same courtesy towards me, but I have enough friends who couldn't give a flying fuck about etiquette. Nor do I care for it... you're supposed to enjoy the time sharing a meal together, enjoy the food and converse. I go with the flow.

Even then, I can see why Mr. "Og" enjoyed his food the way he did (unless he did so intentionally). What bothers me more is uppity people who get offended.

The proper courteous thing for your friend to do, davynn, was for her to politely and friendly ask him to tone it down a bit and point out to him, friendly, that his behavior was affecting your own dining experience.

Changing cheek color and about to cause a scene speaks of just as much lack of etiquette as Mr. Og displayed.

And cynthetiq ... really? Not dating a girl anymore for having the audacity to pick up that last corn with her fingers? I'm sorry, but that's way beyond a reasonable response to a minor breach of etiquette.

EDIT: People tell me I'm a tightass at times. Damn.

 

Like Borla said, not knowing the exact scenario, we shouldnt really judge right or wrong, but for the sake of discussion...

In most common situations like this, changing tables may have been a little extreme. However, if davynn noticed that her friend was being bothered enough by it that she may potentially fail in her own etiquette, it may have been the right thing to do in order to avoid a more dramatic scene. sometimes we have to rely on each other, as humans, to keep us in check, tactfully, in any kind of problematic situation.

As for Og, maybe he wasnt raised right, maybe he was very hungry, maybe he has never realized what that noise sounds like outside of his own head... or maybe he just doesnt give a shit... I personally think i may have said something to him myself... something informative... but then im a firm believer in the "solve it at the lowest level" theory. but i cant blame davynn for helping her friend avoid an embarassing scene... right wrong or indifferent...

 

Right. Either someone's parents are shitty or that person is just selfish. Seems like a pretty comprehensive list of alternatives to me.

I didn't judge anyone. Perhaps when a person has a propensity for judging others, that person might be quicker to assume that others are judging them? Shit, I even gave her friend an out by lamenting, not her, but her state of mind at the restaurant. This is because I know that everyone has off days. I know I have days where I'm not at my best and behave in impolite ways. It happens. If you view my posts in context, you'd see that I went out of my way to not judge her (even when extending my pity to her).

I'm not trying to take away your right to scorn the parents of children who annoy you. I'm not even saying that the children wouldn't have annoyed me. What I am saying is that this obsession you have with attributing behaviors that annoy you to bad parenting doesn't make sense to me. There are an infinite number of reasons why parents might bring their children to a restaurant and then not pay attention to them and I'd bet that most of them have absolutely nothing explicitly to do with not caring about the other people in a bar or having shitty parents.

What's your responsibility here? Did you actually go to a bar and expect peace and quiet? Why? Maybe the family's reasoning was this: "I know, let's take the kids to eat at Drunky's. They have a kids menu. We're too exhausted to cook, and, because Drunky's is a bar, they're used to dealing with loud, obnoxious people, plus we won't have to worry about annoying anybody because who goes to a bar for a nice quiet dinner?" Seems reasonable to me.

My parents taught me manners. Frequently, I ignored them. Because that's what kids to. If you didn't spend ages 11 - 25 thinking your parents were idiots, then what the hell were you doing? Now, I teach my kids manners, and they ignore them. Because they're kids, and that's what kids do. Even so, if one of our kids seems too out of control at a restaurant we'll do what we can to ameliorate the situation. We might even leave. We also did mostly takeout for a while when my youngest was uncontrollably unruly.

 

Can't agree with you there. A bar is not the right place to take your kids to and then let loose. Ignoring the whole drinking thing being viscerally taught to the kids, it makes a hell-of-a-lot of a difference for the other patrons between listening to the blaring sounds of a live sports match (if it's a sports bar) and having to listen to two shrieking and hyperactive kids.

You obviously go to very different bars than I do. Not every bar is a sports bar or full of college types, you know.

 

Regardless of the restaurant or bar I find it hard to excuse bad manners or poor parenting for any reason.

 

To be clear, I wasn't saying that I thought the the hypothetical reasoning I provided for the parents was sound, I think that it would depend on the bar in question. I was just trying to provide a rationale for the parents that didn't depend on assumptions about shitty parenting or a lack of concern for the comfort of others.

Yes, there are many types of bars. Most of the bars near my house are holes in the wall with the same people occupying the same spots every day. These are places with children's menus that play loud after 3 or so. They aren't necessarily somewhere you go for a relaxing meal. They are the types of places where screaming children might not be too out of place. They are also places where folks go to watch the sports.

 

I think that I might have said something to the effect that I was surprised at the amount of response ... I'm certainly not displeased, and from my point of view if a topic does generate this much discussion then it probably will be useful to someone. I am also able to stand by everything that I've written thus far with unwavering conscience. As for thinking that you're being boorish ... it never once occurred to me, (interesting that you brought it up though) ... and as to knowing what I can do if such were to be the case - I would do the same as ever ... be myself, don't take anyone's shit, and never allow myself to be taken alive.
No need to feel pity for my friend ... she doesn't need or desire anyone's pity.

 

You mean, when the lady picks up that last corn with her fingers?

Seriously though, please explain what constitutes "boorish" for you. Has one crossed the line when sharing some of his/her food with the dining partner?

Gotta say... that Brunch menu looks mighty delicious. Having to read about pancakes, bacon, omelettes and chicken salad while on a diet kills.

Confused at the Blueberry brioche toast, though. Chocolate brioche counts as one of my favorite desserts... the fuck is sausage doing in there?

 

Hey, I get your logic. I still see such a reaction as exaggerated. In most cases, I'd view it as girly-cute. Then again, do you realize how little the typical female eats? A missed corn is equivalent to an entire burger to us. All that starch, wasted.

Regarding fine dining: I ate way too much at those restaurants (has largely stopped in Afghanistan due to security considerations)... maybe I've become desensitized to the semi-sacred environment some people make it out to be.

 

Reference my original post ... I was making a comparison as to what I might have said if my intention was to be unkind.

 

To clarify, I wasn't endorsing the hypothetical reasoning I provided for the parents. I was just providing a rationale that didn't depend on flawed parenting or a casual disregard for other people.

All the bars near my house are holes in the wall. A lot of them have been around for decades, accommodate children, and play loud music from 3pm to 2am. I have a hard time imagining loud children being problematic in any of these places. Not a lot of college kids hang out here either. Think Cheers, but more depressing with less funny jokes.

Maybe my city lacks the requisite culture and sophistication to support the kinds of fancy, quiet bars where one goes to eat a subdued meal without being subject to loud noises?

You said it was a bar. I thought of the bars I've been to. They don't seem like places to go for a peaceful dinner. Now that you've clarified, I can see your point.

You can accuse me of being judgmental all you want, if that's what you'd like to do. My posts have been getting likes too, occasionally by the same folks who've been liking your posts. Read into that whatever you'd like.

My responses have been measured, and I've been a model of restraint. I'm confused by your characterization of my posts as "screaming". What does that mean? Do you have a voice that you read my posts in? If it's screaming at you, I'd suggest you supply a different voice. Try Morgan Freeman's voice, it's soothing.

By all means, explain to me exactly where I unconditionally judged anyone? I even gave Davynn's friend an out. I explicitly avoided judging her. I basically responded to the OP by saying the equivalent of "I wouldn't have done that, here's why" and all of a sudden I'm like somebody's bitter aunt at thanksgiving, all up in here, judging everyone, casting the first stone, etc.

I'm not sure why you think my use of the word obsession precludes this being a discussion. Surely discussions allow for the use of descriptive words about behavior? I say obsession because this "blame the parents" thing seems to be a recurring theme for you. But whatever.

Look up "ecological fallacy" and then reread the your quoted paragraph and tell me whether your inferences have merit.

Again, you said "bar". I thought "bar". Obviously, we were thinking of different types of bars. I see your point about the kids running around. Like I said, they probably would have annoyed me too.

Fair enough.

 

Love how you complain about the lack of etiquette by Mr. Og and then conveniently ignore the remarks towards how your friend behaved (which you didn't bemoan).

Is this one of those Shakespearean conflicts of contrasting emotions? Self-righteous agreement with low-level actions under the umbrella of perceived vendetta? Or the ability of selective hearing/reading?

Either way, I should probably quit the Shakespeare course I'm enrolled in.