China is kicking our butt in space

i still haven't seen Firefly... one of my greater sins in this life

 

America has given up on the investment before taking it to the point you seek EventHorizon. We barely scratched the surface of the moon, never really touched Mars. You can't expect gold when you haven't dug the mine.
--- merged: Nov 19, 2011 2:55 AM ---

 

You realize only ~500 people have even ever been IN space right? We simply haven't invested the resources required to obtain your objective. You're moving the goalposts beyond what any reasonable person could expect at this point in human history.

 

if we haven't set out sights on something that makes our ventures worthwhile, yeah all this spin-off tech is great, but space it seems is like a hobby for rich countries. it looks cool, but beyond being a massive proof-of-concept project, it seems to have been pointless without a goal in mind.

if we scoped out some cash asteroid of *wince* unobtanium before making space a giant "look at what i can do" contest, then i would say that all of the effort to open up a new industry in space mining/towing/shipping etc would totally be worth it. i guess in terms of personal values, the costs have outweighed the benefits

 

What does this mean for you?:
I have fresh hope for our future. "Our" being people in general. The Chinese have had practice with large scale projects and planning for the future. Like humans everywhere there are plenty of things to be less than optimistic about. But the fact that they have decided that this is a national goal - that is a serious investment in human endeavour happening there folks. Serious. Major league. A start and definitely not an end.

Does the average joe even care?:
Right now? About the Chinese space program and it's current progress? No. In general? Regarding the long term possibilities? Sure. People always find that sort of thing interesting. Sooner or later it will affect us all a bit more closely than the 6th degree demigod known as Kevin Bacon. Average Joe will be writing letters to his relatives "out there", taking medications developed and processed beyond the atmosphere, and probably consuming cheap metals, radioactive materials & chemicals processed and dropped down from places like the Moon and the Asteroid Belt.

Do you think commercial spaceflight can compete with China?:
Right now? Not a chance. In another hundred years? The combined total private investment in space by then ought to be greater than any one nation-state or alliance .

How might this motivate a change in space policy for the US, EU, and Russia?:
There is this "Win" attitude. And this "Fight", "War", "Competition" language. It infects us all. Not too sure just why. I hear it everywhere, on every level, from preschool kids on up to professional statesmen. It's part of the furniture of our current commonly agreed upon social constructs. There will be some urgency to catch up when the Westerners realize that they are becoming 3rd class citizens. It will probably be too late to "overtake" but it will be enough to influence events out beyond the atmosphere, and be part of the eventual mix of things that will be taking place. Which is important. We need this mix. Gives a bit more balance, I think.

Why is China setting off on their own rather than joining the rest of the world with the ISS?:
Because they trust their own agenda, their own interests, their own goals. They see time and again clear evidence backed up by historical precedent that if they don't push themselves forward they will be held down and drained like some pithed insect in a web. They have a strong and resilient culture that they have learned can flourish beyond the boundaries of their historical homeland. Space is a natural next step for them.

What countries do you think will align themselves with China's space efforts?:
African nations will come on board. China is expanding like gang busters in Africa. If China is even partially as forward looking as I'm betting they are, they will also be pushing to get strong South and Central American support. The Chinese (I'm thinking, anyway) would like to be the bandleader for these former (and in many cases still current) 3rd world countries. The countries that may have some interest in turning the tables on the Western and Middle Eastern nations that in the past selfishly used them, in many cases destroyed them, and everywhere ground them as flat as possible.

I think that "nations", "ideologies" and "cultural identity" are malleable, plastic, and fluid. The world of 2211 will be virtually unrecognizable to you and I. As long as the future to come can continue to be vital, alive, and with lots of room for hope, happiness and spiritual fulfillment I'm a happy camper.

 

I think a point could be made that those wonderful technologies could have been developed with some other focused goal in mind. I see the point, though I support space exploration for attainment of knowledge... What technologies have been created, as a direct result of something that we've found in space? Not as a direct result of us wanting to be in space. ( Yet again, I am not against space exploration as a goal, just considering the argument )

Another point might be that we won't know until we look, right?
--- merged: Nov 19, 2011 4:31 PM ---

They often do before they pay off.

 

Same here.

Just had to add this to the Thread:

 

I have to agree with others in that, at least someone is taking up space. I remember Star Trek and I believe captain Kirk once said, Man went to the stars because it was his nature to.

I think space exploration could prove to be humanity's saving grace and bring peace to the world.

I hope we have a president soon that sees space exploration as extremely important for the future of our planet and thus puts more emphasis into education, research and development and space as a whole.

They say the reason why meds are so expensive is the development costs so much. Space could be viewed the same way. There could be monetary, spiritual, physical gains made. And of course gains we never dreamed possible.

Well based on Sci fi space, that is iffy. I think once in space people will be happy we did, but today they want instant gratification, wherein, if we can't make money and we can't produce anything today then how does it benefit "me". The problem there is it is not about "benefitting" mankind today but in the future. It gives hope whether Idealistic or Realistic hopes that future generations WILL benefit.

I think some religions fear what may be found and will try hard to prevent space exploration simply because they will see it as a possible loss of influence if it is proven we are not alone.

And who knows centuries from now we may find an alien race that helps us out immensely or we may find one that wants nothing but our destruction and extinction.

I think IF and WHEN it can be shown profitable, it can and will compete. I think the Chinese will command the commercial spaceflight and perhaps make it successful. I once heard the Chinese would beat America because they plan and wait for the outcome. Americans want the outcome yesterday. To me, in this area it means the Chinese have the patience to explore just to see what is there and not care about profit but take losses today knowing that in the future space will be the next economy push. Just as discovering the "Americas" was for 15th and 16th century Europe.

These 2 questions to me, go together, I personally can't separate them simply because my answer to one is my answer to the other.

It could change the dynamics, if you are say Germany and you want to move forward but don't want to pay for everyone else, then working with China maybe an option. Someone above stated they saw Central and South America, Africa has been mentioned as jumping in, There are some countries China may invite solely because those countries are tired of where they are and being kept down by the US, Europe and the Middle East and inviting them would somehow be advantageous to China. Australia and Canada, while definitely better off, could go the China route because they aren't as myopic as the US and EU.

I think IF Japan and China could put their past hatreds behind them it would really become successful. But that is a big IF.

I think there are forces in the US and EU that would see this as a threat and sabotage the projects anyway they could. I don't see China backing off, regardless.

If China is serious, then there is no doubt in my mind they are in it for the long haul, they see something (perhaps the fact the changing climates, the overpopulation, starvation and historical hatreds and animosities force us to go to space or perish.

China doing so on their own allows them autonomy, THEY decide what they want to do, THEY make the rules, THEY can claim mineral rights and based on population and size they need to expand to stay alive. They can't invade anyone, nor do I think they want to.

I don't see it as economically driven as the ISS, US and EU would have it be. Yet, if they feel they can explore, have room to continue growth and oh by the way stumble across say gold or diamonds or some type of mineral we have yet to discover then all those things combined makes space attractive.

My sadness is that we gave up without truly doing much. That we worried more about the present and finances than the possibilities. If that had been the case in 1492 (and it was as Columbus went to I believe Italy (Genoa and Venice), Portugal and England before going to Spain and achieving funding. Even then Isabella turned him down but it was her husband Ferdinand that kept the dream alive.

So historically the West has always been myopic and wanting results NOW. (Results of course having a positive economic impact on current society). With Ferdinand having taken that chance Spain was prosperous and the most powerful and influential nation for centuries.

I see China taking that chance.

I see China as a more secluded nation and in conflict within itself. Wanting to be a world leader yet, wanting to be isolated. I think the Western fears that they want to take over the world are not realistic and are out dated. So to fear what they are doing, is always something to think about but to see what they have planned 100+ years from now (good or "bad") is what we should prepare for.

But in all honesty, I believe the Chinese see it as self preservation. The West is falling apart, in serious decline and historically when that happens the results have always led to conflict and regression. Just look how long European countries held onto their colonies and the wars that had to be fought for them to back away. Hell, look at the 80's the British were fighting to keep the Falklands just to prove they (the British) were still somewhat relevant.

I hope and wish to believe 100-200 years from now that whatever mankind exists or where it exists looks back and wonders why we took so long.

Again, I know repetitively redundant, I see space exploration as hope for a better peaceful future. Why have wars and kill over Earth's remaining few riches when there is a whole universe of riches yet to explore?

 

I seem to recall one of my teachers somewhere along my education days saying that "EVERYTHING' fell under the Chinese military umbrella, as I don't remember exactly where I heard it or when I cannot nor will not comment on the bias.Talk about military industrial complex.

 

What does this mean for you?

Hopefully China will release the data like NASA does to the rest of the world.

Does the average joe even care?

I don't think so, which is part of the problem.

Do you think commercial spaceflight can compete with China?

No, there is no profit in most scientific spaceflights. And the Chinese aren't going into the space tourism stuff I don't believe.

How might this motivate a change in space policy for the US, EU, and Russia?

I could see Russia helping them out. And I would think that the Chinese would build a 'little Cape Canaveral' and populate it with ex-American Space scientists and Chinese scientists. We owe them a lot of money, and they could afford to hire the people they need. Or bring over some US/EU college students and push some Chinese students to study space and rocket engineering.

Why is China setting off on their own rather than joining the rest of the world with the ISS?

They want to have control. Not be told what to do. And then have the ISS be decommissioned in a few years for no real reason.

What countries do you think will align themselves with China's space efforts?

Russia will, they did align with US space efforts as well...​

 

At least China's only kicking our butts into space. We should say thank you. China had good reasons to be isolationist for so long as to realize we need more lebensraum. Not to mention institutionalizing population control, in spite of the problems that causes. It's impossible to follow your follower until the agreements you reach outstrip one of your talents. Space-faring togetherness will surely cost less.

 

I'm with the "Yeah space - glad someone's doing it" crowd. It's in our nature to explore beyond ourselves. Denying our basic nature for financial reasons is selfish, placing more importance on our own lives and circumstances than on what the future can be for our children and grandchildren. The money is out there and available. The only problem is, the very wealthy have it and for some reason are not investing in the potential for commercial space travel. I suppose they see no profit potential right now but guaranteed, when they do they'll be lining up like pigs at the trough.

 

I was just listening to a panel discussion with a number of prominent Sci-fi authors and one of the things that came up the notion that Science Fiction in places like China and Hong Kong tends to be optimistic and embracing technology. Whereas many of the trends we are seeing in the West are quite doom and gloom which, they posited, was a result of the way we view technology as a threat. A threat that is having negative impacts on our way of life as it pertains to economics, etc.

The gist being that Chinese families see a better future for their kids while Western families do not.

Hearing that, in light of "China is kicking our butts in Space", is very interesting. Especially when you think of what Western Sci-fi looked like in the 50s and 60s.

 

This is great for China... Our space program has been in the poo-bucket for some time due to ever tighter budgets... we should have been on Mars by now... sadly, I don't think that the US government is going to get away with anything fancy in space anytime soon. Maybe the next president will send us up...

 

They are now where we were back in the early '60s. That's hardly "kicking our butts". When they put men on the moon and return them safely, they will still be just catching up.

 

I think this sentiment is misguided, considering the USA's utter lack of capability to execute a repeat performance. Once China has the ability to go to the moon they will be way ahead, given modern technology. They've said it's their goal to establish a permanent presence there when they do eventually go, so yeah, that's not just catching up... It will be something totally unheard of (permanent colonization of an extra-planetary body). It also puts them way ahead in the quest for Mars.

 

lack of ability or lack of motivation? why would we need to go back?

 

I soo much would rather have that notion in my head than my national pride tail between my legs as soo...

 

Both. You lack the ability and the motivation. You don't see humanity obtaining the ability to expand beyond the Earth as a worthy goal, so obviously you see no need to go back. A failure of imagination, we will need to leave the Earth eventually.

 

Why does a child need to walk before they can run? And that is very much what we are when it comes to space, children just starting to walk and the Chinese are the ones wanting to start running.

I do think if one sees no hope in our government moving forward in space they have to come up with personal excuses not to care, just my opinion and thought in the matter. Wouldn't colonizing the Moon or even Mars be cool? Who knows what we may find in space?

I will admit, I had a friend awhile ago who had a solid argument why exploring our ocean floors might be just as important than exploring space.