Caitlyn Jenner

Would it help to think of it in other terms? Would you use the n-word to describe an African-American person? Would you call them a negro in this day and age? No, you wouldn't.

 

It just baffles me that people who would never use terms like "fag" or "nigger" think referring to a trans woman as a "he/she" is okay. Like, how do you reconcile that?

 

Actually, you've got to give people the benefit of the doubt here.
There is no racial context in language....nor sexual....but there IS masculine & feminine.
Plus we're writing ....so using the "slash" to refer to them is legit...dependent on their status...which IS in transition .
Also the person in question has just transitioned....at least publicly...so you've got to give people a chance to change their orientation & mindset. (some make it easier than others)

I don't think there's hostility ...if anything, maybe some awkwardness...or just their way of verbalizing it.
Many of you are over-reacting.

AND you don't know if Jenner will switch back & forth...as is someone's right (again, example Ru Paul...who is comfortable either way...and identifies either way)

I don't see the need for attacking or jumping on.

And if we're being sympathetic liberals here...not only do you have to sympathize with the LGBT and transitioning folk
but you also have to not go too PC and remember to sympathize with those that are going through a "paradigm shift" in how they perceive that person.

Unless there is true ignorance and hate...just let it go or politely correct them. As you would for anyone in a new environ.
Or do you want to be all "French" about it?? Looking at them in disdain because they don't get your language just right. (BTW, I don't think about this of the French...I'm playing on the stereotype for a point)
Give them a break.
The slash is legit for now.

 

Because we live in a temporal as well as a physical world. We cannot change the past, why should we attempt to close the door on it? Whatever changes we make now, for whatever reason, the past does not change. Revisionist histories may give rise to changed interpretations, but the past itself does not change.

I'm happy to respectfully address her by her current name, if that's what she wants.

But like it or not, Ms. Jenner and Ms. Carlos have a historical as well as a current existence. As Abe Lincoln said, "We cannot escape history..." And neither can Jenner, Carlos, or any other transgendered person.

Bruce Jenner won a gold medal. He did not get his picture on the cover of Vanity Fair.

Caitlyn Jenner has her picture on the cover of Vanity Fair. She did not win an Olympic gold medal.

 

No, see, that's not it. I'm totally down with descriptivism. Language is fluid and constantly evolving. I get it. But this isn't about that, and it isn't about being PC or not being PC or being liberal or not being liberal. It's also not about written vs spoken communication, because writing disrespectful language does not legitimize it. It's about respecting another person's identity and autonomy. It's about understanding that Caitlyn Jenner and Chelsea Manning and Chaz Bono and Lana Wachowski and the millions of other transgender men and women around the world who aren't famous are all people. People who deserve the same common decency and respect that all of their cisgender peers get. Part of that is allowing them to define their own identity, in exactly the same way that you and I get to. It's letting them decide what is offensive and what is appropriate.

To put it in the plainest possible terms, you don't get to choose. That's what this is. It's not your decision to make. You don't have a right to dictate who is "really transgender" or who is "female enough" or whatever other criteria you want to throw on it. Your criteria doesn't matter, because you don't have the right to define another person. Neither does Ru Paul (who is a drag queen, but not transgender as far as I know). Ru Paul can define and redefine his gender identity however he wishes; that does not change the fact that Caitlyn Jenner has politely asked the world to treat her as a woman.

You don't need hate to be discriminatory. I'm pretty sure most men throughout history did not hate women; they just thought they were weak and silly and stupid and needed a man to tell them what to do and how to live. That attitude is pretty offensive today, and a lack of malice does not improve it.

Finally, as far as attacking goes. I will continue to not attack individuals; it's not my style. But ideas and opinions? Those are fair game, every time. If you don't like having your ideas challenged you are in the wrong place.

I'm not a particularly PC person, but I do very much believe that everyone is entitled to their own happiness. I will to my last breath continue to call out people who work against that ideal. And you can label that whatever the hell you want.
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I don't really know what to make of this. Bruce Jenner is the former name of Caitlyn Jenner, which she used when she was living as a man. Saying "Bruce Jenner won a gold medal, but Caitlyn Jenner did not" is a bit like saying "Courtney Cox was in a Bruce Springsteen video, but Courtney Arquette was not." It's two different names but they refer to the same person, so that doesn't really make sense.

I get that it's weird to think that a woman won a gold medal in a men's Olympic event. But as you yourself note we live in a temporal world and cannot change our past. Caitlyn Jenner used to live as a man, and when she did she won a gold medal. Caitlyn Jenner is now living as a woman; having transitioned genders does not delegitimize her gold medal or the training and physical prowess it took to win it. It's still her medal. It was always her medal. The terminology changed, but the facts do not.

 

Sorry @Martian but just as you think that many have not gone far enough, I believe others are going too far, at least too fast.
You've got to allow people to transition in their descriptors, to be fair.

Second, a woman did NOT win the men's Olympic event.
Jenner has every right to identify as a woman...let her female flag fly.
However, at that time...Jenner was a man, identified himself as a man...and WAS genetically a MAN..AND contested as a man. (no matter how they felt emotionally)

And if the Olympic Committee...decides to not take away his medal due to the fact he was a man, then I agree with that fully. It's legit, it's still legit...and it's quite an accomplishment.
But if you insist on saying that it was a woman who won it...then they should take away the medal. (which they shouldn't)
Now, if you want to have a competition for both sexes...or for ALL sexes...or for Other sexes, that's fine. But the rules are the rules, that's what everyone competed on.
IF Jenner felt this way that far back...then he should have not competed as a man.

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On another note, at the moment, I feel sorry for Kris Kardashian...because Jenner betrayed her trust.
IF Jenner felt this way that far back...then unless he revealed it to her...and she agreed to get married and have a relationship KNOWING the truth...then he went into the marriage as a fraud.
Or if he decide to reveal it after the fact, then she'd have to forgive his betrayal of trust, just like any other lie or cheat...and decide to live on with it. That's her choice..
But she hasn't said what she truly knew yet...but you've got to feel for her own conflict.

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Now @redravin if you can say the Transitioned, Drag or other can get confused themselves...even to the point of denial or deception in getting married.
Then all the ultra PC and uber liberal people need to cut everyone some slack during the shift.
They are just as confused as the Other people themselves...if not more.
It is not clearcut...at least until some time has passed to settle it.

You have to give this in transition of sex...of religion...and in truth, race.
Because, if I remember correctly...people are still calling Obama black, which he isn't offended by...despite the fact that he's both, black & white.
And people were confused by Michael Jackson, when he was transitioning from black to white.
Or Anne Heche, who identified as Hetro, then Homo, then back to Hetro...as is her right to do so. (although, I put this into Bisexual...and someone felt they needed to "categorize" or take a side)

Jenner can be whoever Jenner wants to be.
But it doesn't change what he is genetically, despite what she emotionally wants.
And it doesn't change the past, so you can't refer to it differently either, despite the current desired status.

Perhaps we need to get rid of any sexual, gender distinction in our language...but that's another argument.
In the meantime...we are in a fairly quick paradigm shift, as people and society are adjusting to a more free-flowing back & forth identification.
I guess we'll have to start referring to people as we do with the weather,
we wake up for the day, take a look, then adjust for it.
Unless you want to get into if they decide to change from the day to the night...or event to event. (got to respect THAT y'know )

In the meantime, what I WANT...is all the famous for being famous people to go away.
And all the friggin' reality shows about people who just want attention to stop.
Just live your lives...and get off my media and stop being in front of my face and out of my ears.
That's how I identify.

 

Why? How long does it take to wrap your head around "she wants to be treated as a woman?" This is not a difficult concept.

Correct.

Also correct.

Also correct.

Also correct.

...And there is where you lost it. Nobody is saying it was a woman that won the medal. We are saying that the person who won it is now a woman. And because she was a man but is now a woman, the appropriate pronouns and descriptors are the feminine ones.

Caitlyn Jenner identified and competed as a man. Caitlyn Jenner now identifies as a woman. Caitlyn Jenner is a woman who won an Olympic gold medal in a men's event (when she identified and competed as a man).

Imagine insisting that Caitlyn Jenner didn't win a medal because she has long hair and the person who won the medal did not. Or because she's now in her sixties and the person who won the medal was in their twenties. Do you understand how ridiculous that is? She is the exact same person. Something about her has changed, as happens to us all. But it's perfectly accurate to describe Caitlyn Jenner as an Olympic gold medal winner, because she did win a medal in her youth when somethings about her were different. Like her age, and the length of her hair, and her identified gender.

Sure, that's fair. That's something for Kris and Caitlyn to work out between themselves. I do not know and will not claim that Caitlyn Jenner is a good person. My point of contention begins and ends with her gender identity and her right to have that respected.

No, see, there you go again thinking that because they're confused or have been confused in the past it gives you leeway to be ambiguous or not respect what they say. It doesn't matter when they transitioned or how confused they are or whether they've changed their mind. If they ask you to respect a choice they've made, you should do that. End of story.

Sure they are, because Obama is mixed and (to my knowledge) identifies himself as black. Same was true for Michael.

Now imagine if Obama had publicly requested that people should call him mixed race, and not black. Do you think it would be respectful to continue to call him black after you were made aware of this? Do you think you'd have any room or right to claim that you're "confused about his race identity" despite him having declared it unambiguously and directly?

And there you go again. If Anne Heche has decided that she's hetero, then she's hetero. You don't get to define her sexuality for her.

Correct.

Also correct; if you refer to the links to GLAAD terminology above you'll note that this is why there's a distinction between biological sex (male/female) and identified gender (man/woman).

Surely you mean the current status? Or are you suggesting that despite Ms. Jenner's desires she is not, in fact, a woman?

Nobody is trying to change the past. I've already elaborated on this above. It's perfectly clear, and I don't know why you continue to try to make it complicated.

 

AND to add to many people's confusion (not mine BTW) there are many more ambiguities (again, some may not switch mindset as well as others)
From what I've heard from Bill Maher (who's sentiments equals mine, in this case...see the show)
Jenner is identifying as a woman and getting breasts...but keeping his dick and still dating women. (good luck with that dating scene...as BM asked, is she now a lesbian??)

Now again, I go with the flow and don't give a shit. Nor do I want to watch a reality show about her, as I don't with ANY attention getter.
But I DO give people slack while things are changing or have just changed. Who am I to judge?? The PC police?
As long as it's not done with hate or derision, then whatever.
'nuff said

 

If Caitlyn Jenner is a woman who is attracted to other women then yes, that makes her a lesbian. And it continues to be none of your business what she has between her legs, or her reasons for choosing to undergo or not undergo reassignment surgery.

 

I decided to go looking for some primary source references on the 1976 Olympics. Not trusting the internet for this purpose, I went to the public library. In several almanacs and encyclopedia yearbooks (remember those) I found no reference at all to this Caitlyn Jenner person.

Primary source - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

What's also weird is that Muhammad Ali didn't become world heavyweight champion in 1964. It was some kid called Cassius Clay. Look up the original news articles. There's not even one mention of Ali.