Caitlyn Jenner

Why? Does it really bother you that much?

 

Whatever.
Still the same attention hogs as the rest of the K family.

I'd rather remember him for his accomplishments as an athlete (male, female or otherwise) Same as Tiger Woods or Ronda Rousey. same diff.
THAT is noteworthy.

The rest is basically the same as Paris Hilton.
Ru Paul is more interesting to watch...WHY...because he's funny and talented as an entertainer...an actor. (male, female or otherwise) As I would watch Clint Easwood or Sofia Vergara. same diff.

Unless Jenner becomes something that needs to be in the media...then just live life....his/her heyday is in the past.
I have nothing against LGBT at all.

 

Like rogue49, I have nothing against LGBT, GLBTG, whatever. (Who decided the acronym, anyway?)

Except........ that they get way more media attention than they, as a small splinter group, deserve.

The squeaky wheel gets the attention, and LGBT squeaks a lot, and has become the darling of the media establishment.

So, I got curious about how many LBGTs there are in the USA?

2 % or thereabouts, according to The Gallup Organisation and other studies.

Americans Have No Idea How Few Gay People There Are

Surveys show a shockingly high fraction think a quarter of the country is gay or lesbian, when the reality is that it's probably less than 2 percent.

Americans Have No Idea How Few Gay People There Are - The Atlantic

Many Americans think that over 1/4 of the population isLGBT.

No. Where. Even Close.

Now, before I get accused of being a bigot, which will probably happen, I would like to say that I am for equal rights.
I don't think that being a small splinter of the population makes it OK for the rest of us to abuse GLBT folks.

Gay marriage? √ OK by me!
LGBT rights in the workplace? √ OK by me!
Gays in the military? √ OK, sure!
No discrimination in public services and accommodations? √ OK fine
Adoption for gay couples? √ OK great.

But, I just wonder if whatever it is in the genes that gives one at least the proclivity of being GBLT doesn't also include an obsessive tendency to, once out of the closet, mention their sexual orientation at every opportunity:
Q: How's the shrimp bisque, Paul?
A: Maybe a little too much salt. By the way, I'm bisexual.

So, there's the rant. It's over now.

 

Rights issues are kind of a different thing. One can say that LGBTQ people habitually make more of a fuss about their sex and gender identity than non-LGBTQ people and that's probably true. Like, I don't as a straight man feel the need to talk about my gender identity or sexual preferences that often because they're the assumed default and the entire world is constructed, in essence, around me being who I am and liking who I like. So there's not much for me to say, as opposed to a bisexual male for example who gets weird messaging that tells him being attracted to some of the people he's attracted to is okay but being attracted to other people he's attracted to is bad and wrong. So that's maybe worth examining sometimes. On the other hand, I know several of gay and lesbian folks who just quietly do what they want to do. You probably do too, except you may not be aware of it since they don't feel the need to inform everyone about what bits they like their bedtime fun buddies to come with.

In a manner of speaking I suppose you could say that LGBTQ folks are somewhat overrepresented in the media conversation. But more frequently the topic of discussion is less to do with the people and more to do with things that affect those people and how they affect those people. I don't care which celebrity is or is not gay but I do care about equal marriage rights, even if marriage is silly and pointless. Every consenting adult couple should have the right to be silly and pointless together. Gender or sexual orientation doesn't really play into that, except insofar as in many places people are still being excluded from the right to be silly and pointless together based on their sexual orientation and that's bad. So let's talk about that. There are also trans issues that are worth mentioning. Caitlyn Jenner is a woman but for most of her life lived as a man. I still don't much care about Caitlyn Jenner but there are logistical and legal snares that the situation brings up that should be examined. Like, does Caitlyn Jenner get to change her legal status now to reflect her true identity? Does her birth certificate and driver's license get an "F" on them or do they still have an "M"? In what ways does it affect her personally, legally or professionally if they do or do not get changed? If she goes to prison does she go to the men's facility or the women's? If she goes to the washroom does she go to the men's facility or the women's, and do either of those change based on whether she's had sex reassignment surgery or is living as a woman full time?

There's also just the idea of getting people to examine their prejudices which, I'll concede, is one thing this whole big harumph over Caitlyn Jenner is good for. I like @MeltedMetalGlob but not enough to not pick on him. His reaction here is not an atypical one. I get it, because Caitlyn Jenner used to have a dick and might even still have a dick and if you're a straight man dicks are gross and touching them or even thinking about them too much is weird and wrong. That's what everybody knows. And I think, honestly, if you're going to say "as a straight male, the idea of being intimate with a transgender woman makes me uncomfortable and so that's not something I want to do" that's a fair and honest reaction and there's nothing wrong with that. Like, personally I'm not sure I could handle being intimate with a transgender woman who has not had reassignment surgery, and that's okay. But there's a difference between saying "I'm not comfortable being intimate with this person" which people are perfectly entitled to say for whatever fill-in-the-blank reason they may have, and "this person is such a disgusting thing that the idea of being intimate with them makes me want to take a shower and scrub my skin until it's raw." And I don't think that's what @MeltedMetalGlob really meant to say because I don't think he's that kind of an asshole, but that's what his message conveyed. So, y'know, that's something that we can examine. And the fact that Caitlyn Jenner is at least a moderately attractive woman and that Vanity Fair and Annie Leibovitz can do their photo magicks and make her very attractive is something that might prompt more of that critical self-analysis so that's okay. It's also going to prompt a lot of dick jokes I'm sure, but such is the nature of progress, one dick joke at a time.

Apart from all of that, I think being a straight person complaining that gay rights gets too much attention in the media is like being a white male complaining that dem darn feminists are causing too much trouble. It betrays a lack of perspective.

 

Bingo.

It might help if people are willing to step out of their heteronormative, cisgendered box for a bit and consider other perspectives. I'm pretty sure the heterosexual lifestyle gets rubbed in everyone's face constantly. I'm also pretty sure a traditional gender binary is right there with it.

 

The LGBT numbers as a whole are probably closer to 4% in the U.S. But also realize that the numbers vary significantly geographically. LGBT people tend to live in urban areas, where they feel safer and more accepted, and where they are more likely to find LGBT communities (i.e., culture and services). So when you look at these areas, the numbers are closer to 5% or 10%, depending on the location.

That said, there is still widespread resistance to accepting homosexuality (and, I imagine, by extension, transgenderism) in the U.S. We're talking about 60% accepting (33% not accepting) homosexuality compared to 80% accepting (14% not accepting) in Canada. While I'm sure it's much better than it has been in the past, you still have eight times the number of people not accepting homosexuality than there are people who are LGBT. One out of every three Americans think that homosexuality should not be accepted. That's significant. Until that number drops further, the high profile of LGBT acceptance and rights will (and should) continue. They are a relatively oppressed minority in the millions.

 

So, two things about that:

1. What a person is packing between their legs is pretty fuckin personal. I don't know if Caitlyn is anatomically a woman and I don't particularly care to, because that's not really anyone's business but hers.

2. Transgenderism and transvestitism are two very different things and conflating them will make a lot of people very angry. A transvestite (more properly known as a cross-dresser in these modern times) is a person who may or may not be homosexual, but who for various reasons enjoys or prefers to dress in clothes that are traditionally associated with the opposite gender. They are predominantly male but may also be female. The thing to note here is that cross-dressing has nothing to do with a person's actual gender identity; cross-dressers just like to look a certain way that society says they shouldn't like. Transgender people, by contrast, have a gender identity that is opposite from their biological sex. A man who cross-dresses is still a man, regardless of what clothes he's wearing. A transgender woman identifies as a woman and consensus in modern polite society is that she should be addressed and treated as such, regardless of whether she's had surgery to correct her anatomy or even if she's actually dressing as a woman.

It's hypothetically possible that a person could be transgender and also a cross-dresser. For example, you could have a person who was born anatomically male, identifies as a woman, but prefers to dress as a man. I don't know if such people exist outside of those who haven't come out as transgender yet, but there's no reason they couldn't or shouldn't.

What difference does it make if and to what extent Caitlyn Jenner has had surgery? She's requested in the most public way possible to be addressed as and treated as a woman. I don't see how doing so causes any harm to you or anyone else. Why not just allow her whatever identity she claims?

 

Okay. but let's say, just for the sake of argument, that Caitlyn Jenner is still "technically male." Even if that's the case, what actual harm or damage does it do to address her in the way that she wants to be addressed? And if the answer is "none" (and I can't see how it could be anything but) what possible reason could you have for not simply following her desire to be addressed and treated as a woman, apart from just mean-spirited contrarianism? Does it offend you somehow that she might still have a penis?

It seems almost deliberately cruel to insist on using terminology that you have been directly and specifically informed is considered outmoded and offensive because you want to make a distinction. I'm sure you'd be quite offended if people insisted on using a pronoun or name other than the one you chose to address you, but luckily as cisgender males you and I don't have that problem. Doesn't Caitlyn (and every other transgender person out there, regardless of where they are in the transition process) deserve that same basic respect?

 

What's the correct preferred pronoun to use when referring to her winning her gold medal at the olympics?
But wait... she didn't win a gold medal... he did.

 

Respectfully, one would hope.

Isn't that what she's done? Where's the line on that? If you want to be very technical even after sex reassignment surgery she is still genetically speaking a male. She will have to be aware of medical issues that could affect her disproportionately that cisgender women don't have to worry about. She will never be able to bear children, which is less a concern when you transition in your sixties but much more of a concern for those who transition younger. This is why the trans community makes a distinction between identified gender and biological sex. Here's GLAAD's reference guide, though it might interest you to know that the FDA and WHO use a similar distinction, among others.

I wouldn't presume to guess how transgender people feel about sex reassignment surgery. I'm of the opinion, as stated above, that it's none of my fucking business, or anyone else's, who has or has not undergone surgery and what reasons they have for doing or not doing it. GLAAD is an organization that exists partly as an advocacy group for GLBTQ people and issues and they offer the following on the subject:

So it would seem that the general opinion, at least according to the folks who have taken on the responsibility of speaking for those affected, is that having or not having the surgery does not make a trans woman any more of less of a woman, or a trans man any more of less of a man.

But that's a copout. "My opinion doesn't matter because they're not hearing it" is at best an abdication of responsibility. It matters because you're a part of the conversation, and because negative ideas don't exist in a vacuum; they are perpetuated by people just like you and me, so it behooves us to choose carefully which side of the discussion we want to be on. I choose the compassionate side. Your choice is on you.
--- merged: Jun 4, 2015 at 5:11 PM ---

Let me answer your question with a question: if I change my username from Martian to Venuvian, would you refer to things I did prior to the name change as "things Martian did" or "things Venuvian did?"

I would imagine the most accurate way of talking about it would be to say that "Caitlyn won an olympic gold medal competing in the decathalon prior to transitioning gender, when she still went by Bruce."

 

Good thing you don't define what transgendered is, then.

 

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I asked partly because of what seems to be the established practice of referring to synthesizer performer Wendy (nee Walter) Carlos' 1968 album Switched-On Bach as Wendy Carlos' first album. Even though at the time (1968) she he was Walter, not Wendy.
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