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Bye Pointless Ann...

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by genuinemommy, Oct 17, 2013.

?

Should we end Pointless Announcements?

Poll closed Oct 24, 2013.
  1. Yes

    25.0%
  2. No

    50.0%
  3. Depends, see comment

    25.0%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Borla

    Borla Moderator Staff Member



    I have never associated donation with an expectation of return. By my personal definition a donation is a gift, and I only give it if I feel the cause is worthy and trusted enough to make good use of my donation. I don't feel I can take any ownership of what is done with the donation after I release it, though I can use that result in deciding whether I shall donate again or not.

    So I guess my solution/suggestion to this line of thinking would be two-fold.

    1) If the generous staff member(s) who have footed the bill are completely opposed to PA, or any of the suggestions the majority here seem to support, they have every right to withdraw that support in the future and put it back on the membership to support TFP. They shouldn't feel a gun is pointed at their head to continue to pay for something they don't agree with. Conversely, I think it would be kind of them to communicate that clearly and give others the opportunity to take more financial responsibility.

    2) There are at least some occasional donations, right? The bar shows we have covered a fair amount of this month's costs from the board if I'm reading it correctly? If we are going to take into account who donates in decision making (I personally oppose it, but it seems that subject is broached by the above quoted post,my apologies if I misunderstand), I think the staff should at least know who donated what and weigh those opinions more heavily. To my knowledge the general membership doesn't have this info, and maybe only the admins do. But if we are going to start (I mean this tongue-in-cheek) "buying votes", those who donate from the membership should be allowed to have their voice heard, no? I don't think we need a listing for us members, but if financial considerations are going to influence policy, I think the staff should have full knowledge of past/present donations.



    FWIW, I am opposed to all of what I just said. :p I don't think TFP policy should be directed by who gives the most, I think it goes against everything TFP is and has been. I think the financial responsibility for TFP should be a completely separate discussion, and I am quite grateful to the benefactors who have chosen to foot the vast majority of the bill. If it has become a problem, point of concern/contention, or needs to be addressed, I think that is totally fair. But IMHO it is a separate discussion from PA.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  2. I read it the same way Borla Are those whom are responsible for the financial viability of TFP the final arbiters in all matters of content? If so, then this thread is moot. Or possibly it should be posted in a Donators Only forum where all donators and only donators can express themselves on the operation of TFP.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. Borla

    Borla Moderator Staff Member


    One of the boards I referenced earlier has a Donor Forum. A $5 donation gets you access for a year. Donation amount above that has no bearing on how your voice is heard (and we've had several $1000+ donations). Only admins start discussions and they are almost strictly all on board policy or decisions. Donor input is non-binding but is weighed heavily. The forum is only occasionally used, but it allows those who financially support the board a forum to be heard.

    I still don't think that is the TFP way, but it works elsewhere.
     
  4. mixedmedia

    mixedmedia ...

    Location:
    Florida
    I think we're getting off the path here. The crux of the issue seems to be whether PA is good for this site as a whole - whether it takes the place of more in depth discussion and sets a standard for the site that gives people the impression that PA banter is what we're all about.

    Personally, I think both of those are true but I am not sure that eliminating the PA thread completely is the right way to go. I understand the folks who say that that sort of interaction is all they have time for. But I also know that at least one of the folks who is coming from that angle has been an active and popular member here since long before I showed up so obviously ( yes, Craven Morehead ) he got along and managed to be visible before the PA thread was created. I think the main point is that we need to start more threads to discuss things. PA-type exchanges will happen in discussion threads (as they always have) - and not everyone who posts is going to write a frigging thesis - but having a thread that is so disproportionately popular and dedicated solely to chit-chat definitely robs other threads of content...and the feeling of a wider community that we used to have here.

    All that said, I hate to be labeled as a nostalgic. I think that minimizes what is a very valid point. I'm not looking at the past, I'm looking at the future. A handful of people trading jokes all day is not going to sustain this site.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  5. cynthetiq

    cynthetiq Administrator Staff Member Donor

    Location:
    New York City
    I'm always surprised at how much we can discuss things when the framework is provided for discussion.

    Given that the framework has been nonexistent for the most part, it's refreshing to see.

    mixedmedia, as soon as this came up I read your PM to me about this very topic. :)
     
  6. CinnamonGirl

    CinnamonGirl The Cheat is GROUNDED!

    So. This is the first time I've logged on to TFP in over a month. Back in August, I said I wasn't going to sign in unless the most recent thread was NOT PA or a game thread. After a week, I stopped checking. There were other reasons I haven't logged in, but that was the catalyst.

    I get that people just want to pop in and say hi. That's fine. But do it on your status. Or move PA to the games side of the site. It was getting increasingly frustrating, for me at least, to try and have an actual discussion on a thread that only got a handful of responses, and watch as something on PA got a page or two of discussion (or a welcome thread for a spammer got several pages of posts, but that's another issue.)

    Pointless announcements WAS fun. But people were (are? I don't know, I haven't been here in a month) using it to post EVERYTHING. Videos they found online, songs they were listening to, pictures of their kids, questions about something they wanted advice on, links, et cetera. That was never the point (heh) of the thread, and yes, I think other areas of the site suffered for it.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  7. snowy

    snowy so kawaii Staff Member

    Agreed, and some days that's what this place is.

    It's disheartening to wake up in the morning and find there is very little to respond to on this site. I try to occasionally go through and bump my old threads to generate discussion elsewhere, or bump other old threads, or create new ones. I've been on this site a long time, and it's important to me.

    It's been nice in the last day or so to see people step out into other areas of the board. I'd encourage everyone to take a look at Tilted Food--we all need to eat, after all.

    A lot of people have said some very good things about Pointless Announcements. Personally, I'd like to see it moved somewhere else, perhaps in a member's only area of the board, or for it to be a daily discussion thread in a separate forum, as Borla suggested. That seems to make the most sense in that it would likely help create more discussion about the day's events, both in the world and in our personal spaces. That said, I'm not overly attached to it, and what it has become of late is a little too like my Facebook feed--not status updates, but people just sharing memes.
     
  8. I think this is probably the only reason I post on PA. It's the only thing alive. It's accessible and usually the first thing that pops up. Also, it's usually the only thing I get alerts on when I logon. Threads I started or responded to aren't getting the traffic...and I forget about them. I don't want to blame PA for this.

    There seems to be a shift in culture and either PA is feeding the shift or just a symptom of the shift.

    Freeze PA for a little while and see what happens. YAY EXPERIMENTS! GeneticShift LOVES them i'm sure and I love data. Let's see what happens for a week. I might actually post elsewhere. Who knows.

    This place started as a time waster for me, but I have met some fantastic people and Borla. I don't want to see it going away completely.
     
    • Like Like x 5
  9. GeneticShift

    GeneticShift Show me your everything is okay face.


    Maybe discussion in other threads is just what we need, since my life isn't being threatened by ZombieSquirrel!

    <3

    And I do love experiments! I'm up for trying anything with the thread, honestly. It's nice seeing people participate in other threads.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. rogue49

    rogue49 Tech Kung Fu Artist Staff Member

    Location:
    Baltimore/DC
    Yes, but it comes to the point where some have already said what they have needed to be said in the past...that conversation is done for them.
    So their participation ends up being just random things that suit their interest.

    New people will go over certain subjects again with vigor...but for many it's like old priests watching a passionate debate in moot court between new priests.
    Been there, done that.

    And I don't believe we activity push new people like has been done in the past...it is more passive. (Correct me if I'm wrong...I think there was a big influx from Fark at one time)

    So for many, you participate when you want, when you can...and sometimes you don't have tons to say. (or time to say it)
    Depends on your mood...and availability.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2013
  11. Joniemack

    Joniemack Beta brainwaves in session

    Location:
    Reading, UK
    I'm also back after a long, self-imposed hiatus from TFP. What I so loved about the place - meaty discussions on a variety of topics - was waning or so I felt. It started getting too fluffy for my taste. PA was certainly part of it. Right at the top of the pile every time I signed on. Those who participate obviously enjoy it but for me, it was too much like reading random facebook statuses. I see no reason to get rid of PA, though. Free will allows me to pass it by and if others enjoy it, why should they be deprived?

    Anyway, I'm going to give TFP another shot, re-involve myself in the forums I liked so much and see where it goes.
     
  12. CinnamonGirl

    CinnamonGirl The Cheat is GROUNDED!

    What I keep seeing is posts that are basically saying, "but I don't have tiiiiiiiiime. Or I don't have anything to say."

    Um, guys. This is a discussion forum. Yeah, it sucks when we get busy with our real-time lives and don't have as much time for places like this. But does that mean we lower the quality? "Well, I don't have time to really study, but I still want the degree! Harvard should totally lower their standards so that I can participate!"

    Okay, that's a dumb metaphor. Whatever. That's still what it sounds like to me. And I suppose it's kind of irrelevant at this point anyway.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  13. Joniemack

    Joniemack Beta brainwaves in session

    Location:
    Reading, UK
    Lifestyles, sex and politics talk floats my boat. More of that, maybe less of what's on member's dinner menus.

    I have a good 3-4 hours every other night or so that I like to devote online. It's not about time for me. It's about engagement.
     
  14. Borla

    Borla Moderator Staff Member

    I am hearing a common complaint for those who aren't PA fans. It seems that part of the aggravation is seeing PA at the top, or in the recent threads box. I'll go out on a limb and suggest the Complaining thread may be received the same way by at least some of those people. Maybe a few other threads do too (breakfast/lunch/dinner/drink/listening to, etc.).

    Why not use my Daily Thread idea, or some variation of it, and make a Pointless Chatter sub-forum for threads like those. Make it an 'opt in' (or out *shrug*) forum like Guns and Politics. Those that don't want it as a constant reminder can avoid it that way. Or, let everyone have access but don't have it update on the latest threads page/box.

    That would allow those that use and enjoy it to continue to do so. But it would probably be slightly less annoying to those who do not.

    I don't buy into a 'it is preventing deep discussion' argument. Basically every thread here gets replies. Most get a dozen or more after a few days or a week. If people go to the effort of starting discussion it almost always gets some level of interaction going. As mentioned earlier, I think PA is more symptomatic, not a cause. IMO, the best solutions are still the ones I mentioned earlier in this thread.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  15. Change the forum to what you want and the riff raff will leave. Admins have the power.

    I really don't think that PA is the only reason for this. I think you need to take a look at the forum as a whole
     
  16. the_jazz

    the_jazz Accused old lady puncher

    I don't know why this idea that everyone has to participate in every discussion is even being discussed. That's not what we're talking about. Already said your piece on abortion and don't want to weigh in the new one? Perfectly fine. Don't have a new recipe to add? Perfectly fine. Don't want to talk about music? Perfectly fine.

    The rule has always been that you're welcome to post wherever you want. I completely reject the notion that all people want from an online forum is LOLcats and dick-and-fart jokes. I mean I'm people (your opinion may vary) and I want more than that. Not that they don't have their place, but we, in spite of all the naysayers, still have spirited discussions on tough topics. Trayvon Martin. Steubenville. Both threads with lots of posts and lots of activity within the last 6 months.

    And this thread has 54 posts in 1 day. Not bad.

    I still want to burn PA with fire. Then gather up its ashes, stuff them in a cannon and fire them off towards wherever Guccilvr resides these days. But there are alternatives to that, and I'm not arrogant enough (shut up) to think that would be just hunky dorey and everyone will realize that I was right all along, join hands around the e-campfire and sing my name to the tune of "Kumbaya". So we're going to try some experiments. Maybe posts will get deleted outright. Maybe they'll get cut-and-pasted into forced status updates. Maybe they'll get spun into new threads. Maybe there will be completely new threads that have a definite expiration date (This Week's/Day's/Month's Pointless Announcements) with the thread locked after that and a new one started.

    But for those of you who think "well, if they close down Pointless Announcements or move it to Posting Games where I have to requalify to post every day, I'm out of here." why are you still here in the first place? If there is nothing else keeping you here, I think that says more about you than the rest of us. I'm all for fun and games - we all know that I'm the first one that's going to mock a spammer publicly and shamelessly - but I also have serious things to say occasionally. Like, you know, right now. If you don't have anything serious to say ever, you should just switch over to lurking the dirty pictures and stop complaining that serious discussions on the internet are a thing of the past.
    --- merged: Oct 18, 2013 at 3:26 PM ---
    Oh hey, look at that. A new thread culled from Pointless Announcements.

    More to come.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 25, 2013
    • Like Like x 7
  17. martian

    martian Server Monkey Staff Member

    Location:
    Mars

    I'm one of the benefactors, along with cynthetiq (who handles the lion's share). I can assure you that none of the money that goes into this place is contingent on the kind of discussion that's happening. This discussion did not come about because of money, it came about because some of us are starting to strongly believe that pointless announcements is toxic to our community, and that needs to be addressed.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  18. the_jazz

    the_jazz Accused old lady puncher

    Thank you Martian. I should have addressed that.

    Money plays no role here. I understand why it could elsewhere, but that's not the case here. I wish it were, but that's a different discussion entirely and more of a blue sky idea than anything else.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  19. And this is the FIRST I've heard of it....maybe because I don't spend enough time here or in chat (There's never anyone in chat when I visit). I think this is what bothers me the most. It seems so out of the blue for me.

    I hate to think what other things people aren't liking that are going to result in a thread where we talk about what are we getting rid of next.

    I don't think it's PA that's the toxin. I've seen carefully crafted and interesting threads that get little or no discussion. And I kind of feel like when I do post something that I feel may generate some discussion rarely gets any play, it's like...why do I bother? I don't think getting rid of PA will change anything, but please prove me wrong.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  20. And along those lines, seeing activity in PA shouldn't keep people from participating in other threads but it evidently does. We all do our own thing when it comes to the internet. We create our own personal set of rules for engaging whatever we encounter on the web. To say one person's rules aren't right, isn't right.

    Should TFP adopt a Laissez-faire attitude about what is posted on TFP or should there be more discipline applied to the content? It is evident that whichever approach is pursued there will be disinterest by some, rejection buy others, and possibly a reduction in overall posts by all.

    That's why you admins make the big money, right? ;)
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2013
    • Like Like x 2