Assaulting a fascist is self defense

I found this on reddit that was a counter to a video Dan Harmon's video where he goes off on Nazi's and tells people to stab them.

It puts it in words what I believe better than I could.

"Strongly disagree with this very simplistic viewpoint. So quick to shun all discussion, label it a black-and-white moral "no-brainer", and lump anyone who doesn't agree with him in with the most extreme factions of the opposition. Fact of the matter is that there are very real socioeconomic and psychological forces at play driving people to the far right and until we start listening to and working towards solutions to these issues, the tensions will only escalate. Nonviolence is the only way forward if we hope to deescalate the situation and resume any semblance of a reasonable national conversation.

People wanting to "stab Nazis" as Dan seems to advocate here are a big part of the problem.

The small group of people who were in Charlottesville violently anti-protesting have given Trump the ammunition for his "on all sides" rhetoric. Had Antifa not been there, the left would have the clear moral high ground. Instead, they showed up looking to pick fights with Nazis and they got one... except one of the nonviolent protesters was the one to pay the price for it. This whole "it's okay to assault Nazis" thing needs to end. Violence is not okay. It makes us no better than them.

You know how Rosa Parks wasn't the first person to refuse to give up her seat, but she was specifically chosen to be the first civil rights case that everyone could get behind because she had no record, no dirt, no skeletons in the closet? Civil rights leaders of the time knew that this must be the case going into the fray, because the other side is absolutely going to attempt to sling any mud that they can to discredit the movement...

Well, the tactics of Antifa are our skeleton in the closet this week. Because of their use of violence, there is no clear provocateur of the conflict. Police say so themselves... No one forced the kid to run through a crowd with his car... but let's not pretend that the preceding "mutually engaged combat" had nothing to do with it... his attack was a reaction to escalating conflict, likely compounded by mental illness. I'm not saying that makes it right, I'm just saying that had Antifa not been there looking for violence, the right would have no one to point the finger at, as they are known to do.

Antifa ruined the spirit of counter-protest by practicing eye for an eye. In their absence, the car attack may not have happened; if it did still happen then we would have had a nation unified against political violence. Instead, we've become enthralled by the prospect of more of it because "Nazis"... I fear for the coming months.

If we want the Right to distance themselves from their extremist factions, we MUST be willing to do the same on the Left. Anyone throwing punches or using weapons at rallies should be shunned by their respective groups and arrested, even utilizing citizen's arrest by their own in-group if necessary. I don't give a shit if they're punching Nazis or Communists or Progressives or Regressives or Black Lives Matter or White Lives Matter or whatever. It's not up to individual citizens to decide when violence is justified, except in cases of self-defense. That's a matter for our top lawyers and judges and lawmakers who spend their lives studying these topics to decide, and it's a rule that only the state is capable of being objective over and enforcing.

I do NOT want to see mob rule in America. There's a reason ACLU defended the white nationalist's right to protest. There's a reason that you've got black cops out there defending the KKK's right to speak... The reason is that discourse, even hateful discourse, is the bedrock of our democracy. If we're going to go to war with Nazis because they represent a clear and present danger, we need to decide that as a country and act in unison. Easier said than done, I will admit. But the wheels of justice turn slowly for a reason."

 

That's a great write-up, @Lordeden. Militancy from either end of the spectrum only serves to hinder society's cultural and political progress.

 

Going back to the original post I don't believe the teacher that attacked the neo-nazi was in the right at all. He really was doing nothing to physically harm others. I think she should be prosecuted, and I don't think encouraging behavior like that will take us anywhere positive as a society.

The sister of a dear friend -he is part of AntiFa- was there in Charlottesville, she was one of those that tried to lend comfort to Heather Heyer as she passed away. The friend did not even know she was part of it until another friend sent him the video. Chaos from the protests the night before had everyone on edge before the protesting that day even got fully underway. Most of those opposing the nazis were there to defend those who could not defend themselves.

Please watch the Vice video all of the way through, it is enlightening and will shed a light on the perspective of those involved on both sides, though white supremacy is the main focus of the piece. I don't expect to change one persons mind, and really that is not my aim anyway, I guess I just want it be stated that the other side is not just full of villains, there are heroes as well.

The following is from David Freeman, on Aug. 14, 7:37pm, he also posted all through the events and every bit is set to public on facebook if you desire to check his validity yourself.
"The wrong story is being reporting and even we are complicit in perpetuating a false narrative.
There are ONLY two sides to this. The White Supremacists with their Republican enablers are the wrong side. Everyone else needs to pull together despite our differences.
When I followed the call from Congregate C'Ville for clergy to come defend Charlottesville from Nazis l knew my belief in nonviolence was well grounded, solid. Frankly, I had no patience with anyone advocating violence to advance social justice (this is an issue of tactics not self defense).
I am still stalwart in my devotion to nonviolence but now, after Charlottesville, the story is more complex and nuanced.
Please bear with me, I believe this is important and will not be short.
First what happened:
We were called to help and many of us, perhaps a couple hundred, volunteered to risk arrest standing to prevent Nazis entering the park for a major rally designed to intimidate the community of Charlottesville.
This rally to be was not an isolated event that could be ignored. This was to be the culmination of many weeks of intimidation. This town has been under siege. Bands of Nazi and KKK have been entering cafes or swaggering through the streets and following people to their cars with guns on display. The state has done nothing to protect Charlottesville citizens from threats. We could not allow this to become the new normal. We hoped that by taking a stand and being arrested for doing the state's job, the state would be embarrassed into doing their job to protect people.
Friday night almost a thousand people met in St. Paul's Memorial Church for a Prayer Service in preparation to confront the next day's racist rally. Nearly two hundred of us had received nonviolent civil disobedience training earlier in the day. We were prepared for arrest.
Everything changed.
Hundreds of Nazis surrounded a much smaller group of student protestors across the street from our church. The police did nothing. Nazis pelted students with flaming tiki torches. The police did nothing. A group of Nazis broke off and came outside our church to intimidate us and block our exit. We called the police. They did nothing.
We were prepared for arrest but if the police do nothing that only leaves us at the mercy of the Nazis.
Leadership had always emphasized that in addition to arrest there was the possibility of injury. With police inaction, the threat level was reassessed to likely injury, possibility of death.
By morning monitoring of the situation increased the danger level again. We had hoped to have hundreds blocking access to the park. Facing police is one thing. Facing Nazis with police nearby to intervene is another story. Facing Nazis with police nearby who will NOT intervene is a whole another story.
After standing in line before the militia as a relatively large group and sharing prayers or statements for justice, a smaller group proceeded to the stairs on the only open entrance to the park. 19 clergy and one atheist intended to symbolically block roving bands of Nazis from returning to the hundreds gathered behind us.
A group of Nazis advanced towards us. A band of AntiFa stepped up to defend the clergy, we asked them to step back and allow us to make our nonviolent stand. They respected our request and reluctantly backed off. We were actually surprised they complied. They said that they disagree deity our tactics but appreciated and respected us. Respect breeds respect. After perhaps a hundred Nazis broke through our line we regrouped but an even larger Nazi force started towards us. The AntiFa rushed in and broke the Nazi charge. We did not ask for them. We were prepared to be beaten. However, we all respected that they defended us in love despite our disagreement on tactics. They certainly saved 19 clergy and me from a brutal beating and even likely death. They did what the police would not do all day. They defended innocent lives. I cannot criticize them for that. I thank them. When this happens again, we will ask them to stand down again but I will not paint them all with a broad violent brush. Many of these people are more like our fathers in WWII than the hooligans they are portrayed as.
We don't have to agree with each other.
We don't even have to understand each other.
But to defeat the rising tide of White Supremacism in our country we much respect our allies in struggle and hopefully coordinate and cooperate but at least not cut each other down.
That will be hard. We're all angry and frustrated and frayed. Some of us will lash out. Try to understand when this happens. Try to receive the verbal blow and perhaps learn something. Maybe I need a good kick in the pants despite my good intentions. Maybe they're just mistaken or lashing out. Either way shouting back won't help.
Let's try to work together.
I used to be a purist on nonviolence in protests. I still am but I'm not going to harshly judge people who may have saved my life out of love just because some were also itching for a fight with those who promote outright murder.
I hope not but it just might be the case that the civil rights victories of the 60s may have required Malcom X, MLK Jr. and Black Power in all its manifestations.
I really don't know but I ain't judging anybody AntiFa any more."

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 18, 2017, Original Post Date: Aug 18, 2017 ---

In regards to the ACLU change is underway. The ACLU is wrestling over whether it should stand up for the far-right, especially when guns are involved

 

The big difference between the Nazis and AntiFa is that in a world without AntiFa the Nazis would eventually be putting people like me (Jewish with epilepsy) in an oven.
In a world without Nazis the AntiFa would be watching Netflix and drinking craft beer.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 18, 2017, Original Post Date: Aug 18, 2017 ---

 

That's a false dilemma, redravin. AntiFa is not the sole stalwart guard of our society. Plenty of other movements and groupings act against racist and fascist ideologies, which guard against any takeover by the Nazis and the possibility of a worst-case scenario.

There is a sizeable AntiFa presence in Germany, and I come from the region that was the birthplace of the global movement. All of the AntiFa supporters I have been exposed to are simply too fixated on eliminating the opposition and consumed by hatred to seriously consider alternative (i.e. peaceful) means to reach their objective. It's actually quite sad to witness the degree in which they immerse themselves with hate.

 

Suppose we win the war against ISIS. Everything is great for a few years, there might be a few ISIS followers around, but by and large our world is safe from their terrorism. Decades go by like this. Think we should let them start having rallies and recruting members in your local park in the name of tolerance?

 

No, because those people's entire agenda is to cause terror and target their version of non-believers with violence. It's similar to when a group of people get together to plan the murder of another person/group - there is cause to arrest and prosecute them for conspiring to attempt murder.

On a relevant note, there are radical Muslim clerics in Western society right now who actively recruit for terrorist organizations. While we cannot prevent them from spreading their general message of hate, they are certainly watched closely for any size slip-up where they explicitly acknowledge their true intentions, or are targeting troubled youth to join the terror network. When their activities get uncovered, we prosecute them and send them to jail.

Neo-Nazis by and large only spread a general message of hate, and mainly keep to themselves as they discuss the direction they want society to take. From my understanding, it is small subsets of their movement which engage in physical attacks. We can only prosecute those elements, and as a society have to work to counteract their movement's false narrative.

@redravin posted a catchy infographic about not tolerating the intolerant, and while I get the emotional appeal of its message, the use of it is fundamentally flawed in that subscribers to this logic see it as a blank cheque for militant attitudes towards the groups they deem intolerable, failing to see that the opposing side sees them in a similar light - far-right proponents perceive liberal groups as too tolerant of people that should not be tolerated.

EDIT: I forgot for a minute there that we're in a thread about violence directed at neo-Nazis. Even in the case of ISIS it is not acceptable to attack their followers physically, unless you are directly observing them making preparations to conduct an attack. The duty of a civilian is to inform the authorities so that they can respond within the constraints of the law.

With either scenario, if the law and its enforcement doesn't go far enough to curtail dangerous activity, I can only repeat what I said to @arkana: Get involved to get the system changed so that the system responds appropriately.

 

Peaceful should always be the goal but peaceful can extend beyond legal or lawful. Civil disobedience and passive resistance are often the most successful tactics in both achieving immediate results and changing the hearts and minds of the general public.

The problem in the US is compounded by the fact that the Trump administration simply does not want to acknowledge or address the fact that violence by far right white supremacists/neo-nazis are as great (or greater) threat than Muslim extremism.

From a May 2017 intelligence bulletin from Trump's FBI/DHS:

FBI and DHS Joint Intelligence Bulletin (May, 2017)

(U//FOUO) White Supremacist Extremism Poses Persistent Threat of Lethal Violence

(U) Scope
(U//FOUO) This Joint Intelligence Bulletin (JIB) is intended to provide new insight into the targeting preferences of white supremacist extremists and the state of white supremacist extremism violence in the United States. This JIB is provided by the FBI and DHS to support their respective activities and to assist federal, state, local, tribal, and territorial government counterterrorism and law enforcement officials and private sector security partners in deterring, preventing, or disrupting terrorist attacks in the United States.

(U//FOUO) White Supremacist Extremist Movement Continues to Pose Threat of Violence to US Law Enforcement

(U//FOUO) We assess lone actors and small cells within the white supremacist extremist (WSE) movement likely will continue to pose a threat of lethal violence over the next year.*,† This assessment is based on a review of lethal and potentially lethal incidents of WSE violence from 2000 to 2016 and the often spontaneous and opportunistic nature of these acts that limits prevention by law enforcement.

(U) Opportunistic Targeting of Minority Groups Typical of WSE Violence

(U//FOUO) We judge the opportunistic nature of WSE attacks and the use of edged and other weapons instead of firearms likely contributed to the relatively low number of fatalities in 2016 compared to previous years (see Figure 1). WSEs committed one lethal and five potentially lethal attacks in 2016. All six attacks involved the opportunistic targeting of racial or religious minorities, including Hispanics, African-Americans, a Chinese student, and one person perceived to be Jewish. Distinct from previous years, attackers in these incidents showed a preference for edged weapons over firearms.

* (U//FOUO) On 18 February 2016, a WSE allegedly attacked an 18- year-old Chinese student with a hatchet while she was taking photos for a school project in Nashville, Indiana. The victim survived the attack but suffered two-inch deep lacerations on her back. According to court documents, the suspect self-identified as a white supremacist and stated he wanted to kill the student because of her race.1 The individual is currently in custody awaiting trial.

* (U//FOUO) On 28 February 2016, three WSE members of a local racist skinhead group were arrested on multiple counts of felonious assault with a deadly weapon and one count of felonious assault with force likely to cause injury after they allegedly attacked a group of Hispanic men with knives in a Los Angeles County park. According to open source media reports, the three suspects allegedly yelled racial slurs before assaulting the victims. All three suspects are currently awaiting trial.2

* (U//FOUO) On 21 August 2016, local authorities arrested a self- identified WSE for allegedly murdering an African-American male with a knife in Fort Wayne, Indiana, due to the victim’s race, according to open source media reporting.3,4,5

* (U//FOUO) On 3 December 2016, local authorities arrested two WSEs for allegedly stabbing another Klansman multiple times following an argument in an East Yanceyville, North Carolina, residence. According to law enforcement sources, the suspects accused the victim of being Jewish and secretly working for law enforcement; they were charged with assault with a deadly weapon with intent to kill or inflict serious injury/ They are currently being held in jail awaiting trial.

...

...The perpetrators of WSE lethal and potentially lethal violence in 2016 included members of racist skinhead groups, Klan members, and individuals who lacked group affiliations...... (more)
​

How does Trump respond to this intel bulletin from his own law enforcement agencies responsible for coordinating a national response?

Trump cuts funds to fight anti-right wing violence

There are no simple solutions to the rise in violence by far right white supremacists, neo-nazi, and other groups and individuals in the US but the threat is real and growing.

The government must respond and perhaps events in Charlottesville will put pressure on the Trump administration to do more, but I wont hold my breath. NGOs, like Anti-Defamation League and others, are stepping up in the form of raising public awareness. but that also wont be enough.

Putting an end to these extremists will also require public protests on a much wider scale than present and it wont and shouldnt necessarily always be lawful; back to peaceful civil obedience by confronting the haters on the ground in counter-protests.

 

For the same reason that the Abraham Lincoln Brigade was formed to fight in the Spanish Civil War there are times when you have to go toe to toe with the bastards.
“If you had asked me why I had joined the militia I should have answered: 'To fight against Fascism,' and if you had asked me what I was fighting for, I should have answered: 'Common decency.”
― George Orwell, Homage to Catalonia

 

This is among the main factors which make me take issue with the political landscape throughout the Anglosphere. Everything is so damn polarized and adversarial.

 

Yeah, Im in agreement with you, if it was Canada we were talking about, but it's the U.S. and Im sure I dont have to tell you about the first amendment and how it may be difficult (or impossible?) to enact hate speech laws. I believe the protesters who resist these hate groups have been doing all you suggest, for decades now. So, how is that going for the U.S.? Is it working? Are they happy with whats going on?
I could be very wrong, but it appears that the numbers of nazis and their supporters are on the rise, as well as other hate groups. If that trajectory continues, those groups can make a healthy group of voters for some very interesting leaders.

I wish they could have hate speech laws and I wish the protesters's passive resistance techniques were working to lessen the effects of these hate groups, but it just doesn't look like its working out.

 

I dont think that is the case at all. But there is a real growing threat by far right extremist groups engaging in violence to the point that many public safety officials at the federal/state/local level have said that such far right domestic terrorism is as great a threat, or greater than Islamic terrorism in the US.

As noted in theDHS/FBI bulletin I posted above: White Supremacist Extremism Poses Persistent Threat of Lethal Violence

As well as these recent studies from the last few years:

CHALLENGERS FROM THE SIDELINES: UNDERSTANDING AMERICA’S VIOLENT FAR-RIGHT - U.S. Military Academy's Combating Terrorism Center
Challengers from the Sidelines: Understanding America’s Violent Far-Right | Combating Terrorism Center at West Point

Recruitment and Radicalization among US Far-Right Terrorists- University of Maryland's START (Study of Terrorism and Responses to Terrorism) Center
http://bit.ly/2fvoUEd

Law Enforcement Assessment of the Violent Extremism Threat - Triangle Center on Terrorism and Homeland Security at Duke University
http://bit.ly/2gtapVx

 

I think in many cases it cannot, as hate groups *appropriate* those channels and masquerade as peaceful protesters. They also appropriate the government itself.

@redravin thanks for posting the Popper philosophy. I'd punch a Nazi (first) for you. I am not too worried about that punch being the slippery slope to state bedlam, as there are plenty of centrists who still seem keen on debating this - they'll keep the status quo safe through their philosophical contortions.

 

That exact attitude is why moderates usually forego any attempts to directly engage the far left. You simply don't respond in any meaningful way to the counter-arguments presented towards your initial arguments, and then sit there making a passive-aggressive quip about those silly centrists, dismissing their positions as mere "philosophical contortions".

The far left and right deserve each other in their campaigns to harass, attack and kill their respective opposition - not that a brave internet warrior like you would ever put their money where their mouth is to actually fight.

Completely nonsensical attitude and self-righteous to the extreme. I'm done with this thread and the combative prose within it.

 

As I said before my grandfather was a labor organizer and would have cheerfully waded into a fight with those assholes in a minute.
I grew up with that perspective both from him and my mom who was an activist who marched in antiwar marches civil rights marches.
I don't consider myself left or right, I'm an Alaskan.
Our lefties grow up hunting and fishing, own guns, know how to fight back, and believe in taking care of ourselves.
As a Jew I believe in the "Never again!" principle as well.
Not on my watch, not in my lifetime.

One of the things that is very disquieting for me is how much Heather Heyer's mother looks like my ex.
She wasn't that much older than my oldest and had a similar life.
I know this thread is mostly about their right to speak and do we have the right to curtail that with violence but I keep seeing her face.
Those bastards will keep taking until they can't take anymore.

 

I wasn't referring to you when I was talking about brave internet warriors. I was specifically talking about arkana, who has a history of simply stating his position and not responding properly to any retorts, instead opting to make a witty little comment to the amusement of the like-minded folks on here. His lack of backbone is more than obvious. "I'd punch a Nazi for you"... good joke.

In any case, I was born and raised in Germany and went through their school system, so I'm intimately familiar with the many acts of barbarism by the Nazi regime and the "never again" mantra is deeply ingrained in me. With that context, I completely understand the need to curtail Nazi ideology and minimize their influence on society - but as @martian has repeatedly pointed out, there are much better ways than to be militant towards them.

Violence begets more violence - it's a never-ending cycle unless one side is completely annihilated. @Lindy made reference to the political situation in Germany in the 1920s, where the far right (Nazis) and the far left (Communists) regularly clashed and killed each other - the violence ultimately being one of the factors which allowed Hitler and his followers to rise to power.

I just wish people weren't so eager to repeat history all over again, just because they think their side has the power advantage this time around.

I understand where you're coming from emotionally, and even with what I've written in this thread I deeply empathize with the desire to beat the crap out of skinheads. I'd still hope you wouldn't if you ever came face-to-face with them.