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Are Men in Trouble?

Discussion in 'Tilted Life and Sexuality' started by KirStang, Oct 4, 2011.

Page 5 of 7
  1. Plan9

    Plan9 Rock 'n Roll

    Location:
    Earth
    Definitely needed the sarcasm tag there. If we're talking about human history, it's been since we started walking upright, not merely a few decades. Let's be realistic. My comment there was directed at the here and now. While issues like this don't exist in a vacuum, I didn't want to expand the conversation to 1,000,000 years BCE. On a long enough time line, women cease to exist as human beings and turn into trophies with breasts and kitchen appliances that push out heirs. That kind of history, while vitally important to understand, doesn't really help anybody here in 2011. "Hmmm, let's not do that again." I mean... call me a cynic, but if the human race had to start all over again it'd probably be the same damn story.

    /the sadness

    ...

    You know how I know there's an angry Christian fundamentalist with a touch of retarded simian in your life?

    RELIGION
    What it takes for good people to do bad things.​

    That and when I get home I'm going to cram myself into a mini dress, put my girlfriend in BDUs and fuck her stupid.

    You know, just to reassert my dominance and reestablish gender roles.


    ...

    And by men you mean people. Which is what most of this thread should be about instead of the hot poo-poo Eddie is spewing.

    ...

    Maybe he is referring to a Lord of the Flies kinda scenario.
     
    Plan9, Oct 26, 2011
    #81
    • Like Like x 1
  2. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    "In every known human society, the male's need for achievement can be recognized. Men may cook or weave or dress dolls or hunt humming-birds, but if such activities are appropriate occupations of men, then the whole society, men and women alike, votes them as important. When the same occupations are performed by women, they are regarded as less important. In a great number of human societies men's sureness of their sex role is tied up with their right, or ability, to practise some activity that women are not allowed to practise." --Margaret Mead, "Male and Female"

    I'll reiterate that much of this kind of thing is derived from Eurocentric ideology.

    When European powers first came to the New World, they were astounded by the relative egalitarianism in the indigenous cultures. There were several other societies with similar characteristics around the world, mostly among hunter-gatherers. Characteristics such as matriarchies or matrilineages, women's entitlements to property preceding men's, equality with regard to social status, equality with regard to political and military matters, etc. Today, matriarchal societies still exist.

    Of course, you could always come up with the "but they're just savages" argument, but that would be pretty Eurocentric as well.

    We could also argue that the whole point of this thread is that America is transitioning to a matriarchal society.
     
    Baraka_Guru, Oct 26, 2011
    #82
    • Like Like x 2
  3. Plan9

    Plan9 Rock 'n Roll

    Location:
    Earth
    Don't develop a fetish, now.

    I apologize for missing the previous context. I'm sure it's a victim of all the grunting and chest thumping. Like a lot of human history.

    Yeah, quite certainly Eurocentric. And I kinda figured someone would bring up matriarchies in some fashion. Excellent point.

    The difference is that the male-dominated European cultures pretty much killed the shit out of everybody else on the planet.

    I'm not a history major or an anthropologist, but I do know that a lot of patriarchal white men did a lot of bad things.

    I am under the impression that the European slice of the change-the-world pie is rather significant.

    /adds nothing to the conversation, heads to Wikipedia to read more about matriarchal societies
     
    Plan9, Oct 26, 2011
    #83
  4. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    Much of that has to do with the patriarchal structure of Christianity. God is the Father, woman was created to help man, Jesus is the Son, blah, blah, blah, Lord and Saviour. Much of that masculinity was transferred into the culture via the structure of the church. So you get strong Christian values even today where men are leaders in church, the man is the head of the household, the father dictates the lives of the children, etc.

    In hunter-gatherer societies, religious and spiritual values differ greatly, especially with the idea of goddess as creator and the fertile mother as deserving the most honour and status in society.
     
    Baraka_Guru, Oct 26, 2011
    #84
  5. Plan9

    Plan9 Rock 'n Roll

    Location:
    Earth
    No kidding. Monotheistic religions are typically pretty manly-man. Islam, for example.

    ...

    I guess my poorly articulated point from my first post on the topic is that these monotheistic, male-dominated societies slaughtered the shit of the matriarchal hunter-gatherers. Just another example of "might makes right," as least as far as human history is concerned. Technology was a factor, sure. It isn't about where we're going in 2011 but it is where we came from. Whether it was just a bunch of random factors or something that would be repeated if we put a thousand blank people on a deserted island is beyond me.
     
    Plan9, Oct 26, 2011
    #85
  6. DamnitAll

    DamnitAll Wait... what?

    Location:
    Central MD

    Yes. We're fucked. Which doesn't really matter because, first, we're specks. Second, we've earned it.

    And it's all good.
     
    DamnitAll, Oct 26, 2011
    #86
    • Like Like x 1
  7. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    I totally get you.

    I think the overall "takeaway" about this point is to realize that the advent of feminism in the West wasn't a disruptive force of some kind of natural masculinity or natural gender hierarchy. In many ways, feminism represents a continuation of the Enlightenment and acts as a kind of deconstruction of religious orthodoxy with regard to its influence on societal (i.e. constructed) gender norms---feminism reaches toward a more sensible equilibrium, if you will.

    Think about it this way: I would imagine secular people generally have an easier time accepting feminism and an egalitarianism among men and women than the religious do. Consider the ideology of secular humanism, as one example. Monotheism isn't all bad. You get liberal currents within both Christianity and Islam. But there are challenges due to their inherent structures and long histories.
     
    Baraka_Guru, Oct 26, 2011
    #87
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Plan9

    Plan9 Rock 'n Roll

    Location:
    Earth
    So, basically, what Baraka is trying to say is...

    Religion
    Don't take dating advice from entities that manifest themselves as burning shrubbery or dispense their rules on stone tablets.​

    ...

    C'mere, you. Time for an insignificant hug.
     
    Plan9, Oct 26, 2011
    #88
    • Like Like x 1
  9. mixedmedia

    mixedmedia ...

    Location:
    Florida
    The feminist movement, from the beginning with activism for birth control, prohibition (misunderstood movement) and women's suffrage, has always been about freedom. In this case, freedom from compulsory adherence to the pre-written life (written by patriarchs and the women who loved them) that was handed at birth to the girlchildren of 'western societies.' So when guys get all down on feminism and call them 'anti-men' and 'man-haters,' I have to kind of smile, you know. Antipathy towards men in the feminist movement is in direct proportion to the antipathy that has been shown towards feminists over the last century +. If men hadn't been so hysterical and threatened by it, things would have prob. evolved differently...and more quickly.

    (reminder: the ERA has yet to be ratified)
     
    mixedmedia, Oct 26, 2011
    #89
    • Like Like x 3
  10. Grasshopper Green

    Grasshopper Green Getting Tilted

    Location:
    Tiptoeing through the tulips
    My husband is studying to be a nurse. He's sexy in his scrubs. My dad is a teacher...started in elementary school but moved into middle school. He's awesome. He was an engineer but found teaching more fulfilling so he switched careers. I agree with Plan9...the problem with pussification is what's reflected in the mirror. If you buy into the manly man bullshit, that's on you.
     
    Grasshopper Green, Oct 26, 2011
    #90
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Bodkin van Horn

    Bodkin van Horn One of the Four Horsewomyn of the Fempocalypse

    Location:
    Inside The Nucleus of Feminism
    "Why are these bitches so hostile?" sez the stereotypical man's man? Hint: the answer is in the question.
     
    Bodkin van Horn, Oct 26, 2011
    #91
    • Like Like x 1
  12. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    Feminism has to be one of the most misconstrued ideas to come out of the 20th century.
     
    Baraka_Guru, Oct 26, 2011
    #92
    • Like Like x 1
  13. EDDIE

    Eddie Getting Tilted

    Well, you look at the previous model of the sexes or the previous familial dynamic up until the feminist movement started. It worked. And since the feminist movement..... relationships don't last, divorce is the norm, children are slaughtering each other in schools, babies are raised by strangers in daycare, breast cancer and autism are becoming increasingly rampant, obesity, depression and adhd are epidemics, people are over-medicated, suicide rates are sky high, and the western world is basically devolving into debt and poverty. Coincidence? Not even close. When the familial structure collapsed, the western world began to collapse in a domino effect.
     
    Eddie, Oct 26, 2011
    #93
  14. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    It wasn't feminism that did this; it was conservative politics and social expectations. I thought that was obvious.

    But I guess this is another one of those cases of the rigid ideological masters blaming the liberators as they continue to ruin things on their own.

    Women were always an easy scapegoat. It's getting really difficult these days though. You're a brave man.
     
    Baraka_Guru, Oct 26, 2011
    #94
    • Like Like x 1
  15. EDDIE

    Eddie Getting Tilted

    Uh, no. Conservative politics and lifestyles were standard long before the feminist movement.
    --- merged: Oct 26, 2011 10:27 PM ---
    Dude, where did you see me blaming women?
     
    Eddie, Oct 26, 2011
    #95
  16. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    You know, this is like saying the British Empire was the standard long before the American Revolution. What's your point? You need to expand on this.

    Um....
     
    Baraka_Guru, Oct 26, 2011
    #96
  17. EDDIE

    Eddie Getting Tilted

    You think the feminist movement swept through the western world without the help of men?
     
    Eddie, Oct 26, 2011
    #97
  18. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    That's beside the point.
     
    Baraka_Guru, Oct 26, 2011
    #98
  19. spindles

    spindles Very Tilted

    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    Bad outcomes from 'progress' doesn't necessarily mean the progress is bad. I mean we have a much higher death toll from road accidents since the invention of cars. Should we go back to horses and carts because they are safer?
     
    spindles, Oct 26, 2011
    #99
  20. EDDIE

    Eddie Getting Tilted

    Yes
     
    Eddie, Oct 26, 2011
    #100
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