kel

From the perspective of someone who wants to learn to shoot a rifle well. My goal is to move up to a larger caliber eventually (.308 winchester?) with a high power scope. Which is best for this application? 22LR is dirt cheap, but it's a limitation to my accuracy. 22WMR and 17HMR are more accurate but more expensive.

I was intending to buy a good scope no matter what rifle I buy. I want be sure that I am the limitation and not my rifle.

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Nachtschleicher

I shoot 200 yards with .22LR from prone with iron sights and get 3 shot groups, which are 5 inches apart. However, with my Anschutz 1903 that's expected. With one of those Romanian .22LR training rifles, you'd be lucky to strike the target at 200 yards.

Point being, your accuracy is only as good as yourself and your rifle, regardless of caliber. Unless of course, you're talking about shooting at distances further than 200 yards. I've heard that the .17HMR is a flat shooter, and at distances of more than 200 yards, that might be your best choice. I’ve also heard it’s flatter than the .22 Magnum. Personally, I don’t care for the .22 Magnum. I believe it’s more of a novelty item than anything else.

Just what kind of shooting do you want to do? Casual plinking, or target shooting, or maybe hunting practice? Also, at what distances do you speak of? Why not just go for the .308? If you can add in a little more information, it would be helpful.

If you want to talk more about long range shooting with the .22, give me a PM or an e-mail. I'll be glad to answer any questions.

Have a good ‘un!

kel

Any real caliber is out because of cost.
Target shooting is the ultimate goal.

I was looking at the bolt action rifles made by Savage arms. The bolt action is a style preference more then anything else (it also forces me to savor each shot and take my time).

I am under the impression that starting with a normal caliber will cause me to learn bad habits.

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Nachtschleicher

Kel, thanks for the extra information. So you want to get started in target shooting, eh? Okay, that’s cool. I’m a small bore and high power competitor myself.

If you want to get serious in competitive shooting, some good stores to go to are Champion's Choice, and Champion Shooters. Of the two I recommend Champion’s Choice, they’re usually cheaper in products. Dunno about shipping however.

Now onto the rifles of choice… you say you’re looking at Savage Arms. Now, I don’t speak from experience, but only from what I’ve heard, and what I’ve heard is that they’re pieces of junk… you get what you pay for. If you want something that you can do some decent target shooting at relatively low cost, I’d go for a Ruger rifle. Either the Ruger 77/22 Laminate Stock (Laminate because supposedly, it won’t warp as easily in wet weather, and is more durable), or the Ruger 10/22 Target. Now, please note that neither have sights, and will need to be mounted for a scope or irons.

If you want to upgrade to something a little fancier (and a WHOLE lot better), go for the Anschutz 1903 (the same rifle I use). The Ruger 77/22 Laminate stock is $ 665, the 10/22 Target (semi-auto) $ 445 while the Anschutz 1903 @ Champ. Choice (click “I Agree” to access the rifle) is $ 692, only $ 32 more than the Ruger 77/22(if purchased from Champion’s Choice). But don’t forget about the DROS fee and the other taxes. IF you buy the Anschutz, you will NEED to buy a good sight set. The 6834 Match Sight Set from Champ. Choice (again, click, “I agree”) is the best value in my opinion that you can buy. For a total of $ 917 you can have the best rifle, and sight combo you can for under $ 1,000. At least, it is to my knowledge.

Lastly, if you get an Anschutz (or any other target rifle), you’re not going to be able to unleash the rifle’s potential until you get a decent shooting jacket and a leather sling and LOTS of practice, and I do mean LOTS. This rifle (as with any other Anschutz rifle) is capable of amazing shots. I’ve had two shots go in the same hole at 25 meters from both prone and the VERY uncomfortable kneeling position. Also, don’t shoot the high velocity ammunition, it screws up the rifle, and accuracy will suck.

Well, sorry for the LONG post, but I hope you found this informative. Let me know if you want more information.

P.S. Reading books will help a lot before doing any target shooting. Try looking up New Position Rifle Shooting by Bill Pullum & Frank Hanenkrat or Shooting for Gold by William Krilling.

EDIT: Spelling

kel

I should qualify more, price is an issue. Think more casual target/plinking. I can quickly see that the high end is too expensive for me right now. (which is why I am considering cheaper calibers like .22)
I was thinking of a rifle budget of 300-400 tops. Seems like I may have to rethink.

It's just that the added price is also the same amount of money it would cost me to shoot for a year or even more. (Just that rifle)

What exactly is a shooting jacket? I have never heard of such a thing.

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mtsgsd

If you are really serious about shooting, you'd wear a shooting vest at minimum, and perhaps even shooting pants and shoes (really).

They are designed to fit tightly in certain areas and directions so that when you are in position to shoot, the clothing helps to support you. This means less work by your muscles thus less fatigue, and more importantly less muscle twitching to throw off your aim. Now on top of all this stuff, you need to isolate your pulse from your rifle so that it won't make your gun move, so you wear a sweatshirt of something else heavy underneath the coat. You'll do this no matter what temperature it happens to be.

Moonduck

There is a difference between target shooting and competition shooting. What these fine fellows are giving you advice on is how to squeeze serious performance out of whatever small-bore rifle you choose to buy. They're going into it because of some of the language you used, and I can understand that.

If you are not talking about competition shooting, or precision long-range shooting and whatnot, but merely want to learn to shoot with some degree of accuracy, go buy a .22LR rifle and a lot of ammo. You will do better in the long run to burn more of your budget on actual trigger time than on expensive rifles if you are not planning on competing.

For the sort of relaxed plinking that I liked to do (liked because I have nowhere to do it these days), I was happiest with a mid-range semi-auto like a standard 10/22 by Ruger. They're inexpensive and easy to find parts for, and, with money, capable of more accuracy than you are. The nice thing about them is that you can start cheap (base model, wood stock) and upgrade as time, skill, and finances dictate.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not disagreeing one iota with what has been posted here before me. I'm no competition shooter, and I would lay serious money that either of these guys could outshoot me in a heartbeat. I'm a very casual shooter and spend way too much time with a pistol in hand to ever get good at pinpoint shooting (in competition, I'm closer to IDPA than long-range silhouette). I am simply offering a different viewpoint on learning to shoot, and the first rifle to buy.

kel

Why is everyone talking wood stocks here? Why not synthetic?

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mtsgsd

Amen! I have a 10/22T that isn't even recognizable anymore and can drive tacks. A basic 10/22 is about $150. and shoots great out of the box. Unless you really get into squeezing accuracy out of it, you can get by with a bolt hold-open device, and an extended mag release. They're so nice to have that almost everyone ends up putting them on.

There is literally no reason to go with anything more expensive unless you're at a high skill level, because you won't be able to tell the difference.

Hey, want to impress your non-gun shooting friends? Tell them that you shoot at the "Marksman" level. Marksman is the lowest classification you can have in pistol or rifle shooting. You're a Marksman no matter how bad.

I just watched a documentary about the Kennedy assassination, and they made a big deal out of Oswald being a "Sharpshooter".
That's only one step up and is really not that good. Hmmm.

Nachtschleicher

I think there's been very little mention of synthetic stocks because we all have to admit, the wood stocks look prettier than the synthetic ones.

Though the synthetic stock has multiple advantages, people sometimes choose the wood ones for their looks.

These two rifles may be good choices. All are .22LR

CZ 452 Varmint Wood Stock $ 407.00 - no sights

CZ 452 Style Synthetic Stock $ 378 - No sights

My first starter rifle in competition was a Remington 541x, which I ordered from the Civilian Marksmanshgip Program (CMP) . They no longer sell the rifle to civilians but to clubs only. Some information if you want here. They also sell the Kimber Model 82, but I've heard bad things about it. CMP .22LR Rifle Sales. Go to Guns America Auction Site or Gun Broker Online Auction and type in Remington 541x or just 541x, and you should get a few results. Not a bad deal if you MIGHT go into competitive shooting.

Another thing you might want to consider looking into are air rifles. Some can be just as accurate as a target rifle (the very expensive, high end ones) and others can have the same accuracy as a regular plinker. Also a lot cheaper to shoot, especially if you choose a rifle that doesn’t require an external air tank, with regular fill ups.

If you like, I can put in a list of manufacturers who make bolt action .22’s. Just let me know and I’ll post a link.

Nachtschleicher

Mtsgsd, to the civilian population who knows little or nothing about guns, and much less about competitive shooting, that sounds mighty impressive! Just say it out loud... SHARPSHOOTER!

Then you get into the higher categories, like Expert, and it doesn’t sound near as impressive as, "I'm a sharpshooter!"

kel

So am I hearing here that .22LR as a cartridge is more then adequate? The rifles are near enough in price (and ammunition) that it won't make the biggest difference which I choose.

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Kllr Wolf

I definatly agree with the recommendation for the .22LR. The Ruger 10/22 seems to be the most adaptalbe to skill and expense.

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Moonduck

.22LR is certainly more than adequate to learn on. It is far better to buy a rifle to learn with, and then another to shoot for effect once you've gotten a good grip on the skills learned in small-bore. You will also find that practice with small-bore is cheap and about as effective at maintaining hard won skills as your heavier rifles (it doesn't help recoil control, but that is more a process of getting used to it).

Slims

Ok, actually, .22lr is one of the most accurate rounds ever manufactured. It will probably knock the socks off of both of the other abovementioned rounds at ranges < 100 yards.

the .17 HMR is a specialty cartridge....for relatively close range varmint hunting where the hunter wants a relatively low-power cartridge that has a very flat trajectory. It would not be my first even third choice for target shooting.

The .22 magnum is essentially a longer .22 lr (not quite though). The only advantage of this is that it is a bit faster. However, this extra oomph translates to decreased accuracy. It is also overkill for most small game.

The .22lr gained popularity over many other .22 cartridges, and over many other rimfire cartridges for several reasons:
1: It is cheap
2: It is unusually accurate. For target shooting at smallbore ranges (50 yards generally) shooters get the best accuracy out of a round that is propelled to just under the speed of sound (breaking the sound barrier adds some inherent instability). .22lr does this.
3: It is versatile. If you want, you can buy some pretty hot supersonic .22lr loads (relatively speaking) that move out at speeds in excess of 1600 fps. You can also buy quiet subsonic loads that make less noise than an airgun.
4: They make great hunting rounds since they do not travel as far as 'higher power' cartridges and they are not moving so fast that they destroy small animals (unlike the .17 hmr).

Besides, you are looking at probably a five hundred percent increase in price for .17 or .22WMR over .22Lr. It just isn't worth it for plinking.

Get the .22Lr first, and after you get accustomed to shooting, you can expand your collection to include these other, more specialized cartridges if you find you have a need for them.

Oh, and for your first gun, I would recommend that you purchase a weapon with good iron sights, and only add a scope after you have become a proficient shooter. Scopes will only add another level of complexity. They tend to break or go out of zero when you bump them And cheap ones are not parallax-free and will drive you crazy as a new shooter.

A good rifle with good quality iron sights will outshoot almost anyone.

Good luck

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"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

moot1337

A note on ammo: If you do decide on the 22LR cartridge (which is what you should start with), go to wal-mart and buy a box of 500 winchester Dynapoints. Dynapoints are getting pretty famous in the world for being bulk ammo that is pretty accurate. In 22LR, cartridge choice matters just as much as gun choice when it comes to accuracy, and so you will need to experiment with many different brands in order to find something your gun likes.

Another note: I own a 10/22 and it is a pretty nice rifle... it is a tinkerer's rifle if you choose to get it shooting very well. With a few tools (dremel, belt sander, some files) and some bar epoxy you can make an auto bolt release, extended mag release, lessen/eliminate the trigger pretravel, and chamfer the bolt... notes on these at www.rimfirecentral.com

The 10/22 will soon also convert to 17 HMR or 22 Mag with a different barrel and a conversion part being patented now by an RFC member... 17HMR is a pretty nice round for shooting at ranges up to 200-300 yards, too.

mtsgsd

Speaking of ammo, stay away from "Thunderbolt" and the gold "Bucket o Bullets". Very very dirty ammo that will foul your barrel so fast you won't believe it. I've had shots start keyholing (tumbling and hiting the target sideways) after 10 rounds because of lead build-up in the barrel. PMC and Aquila both make cheap accurate ammo. CCI is very good as well, but more expensive. You'll find that some ammo will work better than others, and it won't necessarily be the most expensive ones either. Depends on your gun.

soopadoopa

In your case, I'd choose:

1. Ruger 10/22 - cheap, nice looking, and extremely reliable.

2. Marlin or Savage .17 HMR - ammo is much more expensive, but the accuracy will knock your socks off! I'm talking three shot groups in a thumbnail at 100 yards. But, as it's been said, it's not a squirell gun unless you can make all head shots.

3. 22 mag. - the 17 is just a better choice in my opinion.

Jonnymax

Reading this post makes me want to pick up a 10/22 asap.

Anyone want to share good tips for a prospective 10/22 buyer?

Slims

Yeah, get stainless so you can abuse the weapon, and don't bother buying a bunch of expensive aftermarket high-cap magazines until the end of the year.

Right now they are super expensive because due to the AWB there is a limited supply, after september, if all goes well, they will be completely legal again, and cheap too

__________________
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

soopadoopa

If you're the type who likes aftermarket parts and mods, try to find a good used one. Probably the first thing you'll want is a bull barrel and thus, a stock to fit it. No need in buying a new rifle when all you'll need is the receiver. JMO

Mustis

Gotta love the price tag on .22LR - i've shot .22WMRs, but not .17HRMs yet. Caliber looks interesting, in that it's trajectory is much flatter and velocities are much higher than the .22LR just haven't seen a gun that shoots it that sparked my interest.

soopadoopa

The Marlin 17VS is pretty sweet, that's what I'm savin my pennies for.