shakran

plus the fact that you can put all the pressure you want on that trigger, but if my hand is jamming the slide/hammer the gun isn't gonna fire. Plus the fact that in most disarms I'm not gonna care if the gun fires. I'm not gonna sit there letting the gun stay aimed at me through the disarm - i'm gonna move off of the line of fire while disarming you.

And notice that in my example I didn't say the guy was after your wallet. Sometimes people just try to kill someone without a robbery motive.

The situation where a gun is better than martial arts is as follows: Your attacker is about 20 feet away charging at you and has a knife drawn. If he has a gun drawn, he has the drop on you and can shoot you if you reach for your gun. If he has no weapon and you shoot him, get ready to go to jail for a very long time because you just committed manslaughter at the least, possibly murder. If he's within range and has a knife, get ready to get cut to ribbons as you reach for your now useless gun.

Fact is that unless you get the drop on your attacker, which rarely happens, guns aren't gonna help you as much as martial arts will. If you're properly trained in H2H combat, you can fight your way out of a situation where someone got the drop on you (which, btw, will happen much less to a trained martial artist than it will to Joe Citizen). Even if you're properly trained in gun use (which most gun carriers are not) you still have to reach into your jacket/pocket/wherever you're concealing the weapon, chamber a round, take the safety off, raise the weapon, aim, and FINALLY fire. Your attacker most likely already has his gun out, the safety (if it has one) is off, the weapon is ready to fire, and he's already got it pointing at you. So while you're busy getting READY to shoot, he's shooting. This is, as was pointed out, assuming you don't walk around with the gun out and ready to fire at all times.

debaser

This is dangerously incorrect. An automatic will fire regardless of your hand on the slide (which it won't be after it fires, trust me).

Incidentaly, many new autos don't even have an exposed hammer.

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shakran

And most people have a semi auto rather than an auto. However, my next sentence covered autos as well - -namely, step off the line of fire and don't let the barrel keep pointing at you when you disarm!

debaser

1. An automatic pistol refers to one in which the action sequences through the use of energy from the cartrige, not one that fires in a full-auto mode.

2. How are you going fo move your entire body out of the line of fire before I pull a trigger? Sounds like dodging bullets to me...

3. Even if you do move out of the line of fire, where is the barrel pointing now? That buload of nuns will not be to happy with your descision to use your ninja skills when their choir is one sister short.

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shakran

1. Actually, an automatic pistol is more precisely defined as a pistol which continues to fire as long as the trigger is held down. A semi automatic pistol is one that can fire without being cocked - but you still have to pull the trigger for each round.

2. Well, if you just pull your gun and shoot, I'm screwed. But then, I'm screwed in that situation whether I have a gun or martial arts training or both. If, however, you pull your gun and threaten me with it from close range (and yes, it happens, it happened to me 2 years ago) then I have two choices. A) give you my wallet. B) if I feel that you're gonna kill me no matter what, I can go for the disarm.

You're talking as though i'm gonna take a big step out of the line of fire, then reach for your gun and try to wrestle it away from you. That would be insane.

3. That's why people properly trained in actual combat-oriented martial arts also have undergone awareness training. I'm not gonna move the gun off my line and have it point at my friends/family who are with me. I'll even try to avoid the gaggle of nuns that have been following me around, but at the end of the day, if someone i'm not protecting, the attacker shot them, not me. My first concern is protecting my family/friends who are with me.

BTW, if attempting a disarm in a crowded situation, you can always perform the disarm that ends up with the pistol pointing at the attacker with your finger on the trigger


The bottom line is that there ARE ways to disarm guns. And they DO work. That guy that I mentioned that pulled the gun on my 2 years ago found himself minus one gun and held with his own gun until the cops arrived. Does that make me superman, able to dodge bullets? No. It makes me very lucky that he was stupid enough to pull his weapon close enough to me that my training enabled me to disarm him.

Cardinal Syn

I'll take gun for range.

And real life situation ,Hand to Hand combat close quarters.

There ya go. I settled the dispute. :>

kel

Yeah... I want to have both... and also be able to crush someones chest in one blow... saw my Sensei do it to. It was amazing.

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debaser

http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=11499

You are thinking of a machine-pistol. In the common and technical parlance guns such as the 1911 and Glock 17 are known as automatics.

When put this way I agree with you 100%. If you feel that the person is going to shoot you regardles, then by all means, go for the disarm. Otherwise it is just not worth the risk.
Yes, but remember that the thread asks "Do you belive that it is better to be proficient in the use of a firearm or in unarmed combat". Now to me, as I stated before, proficiency with a firearms includes weapons retention and CQB techniques. Someone trained thus will not be disarmed. Remember, for every move there is a counter. Now granted, most criminals are about as proficient in gun use as they are at weaponless martial arts (lucky for you), but if you match practitioners of equal skill I would put my dollars on the gun every time.

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Fire

ok- to move this in a slightly different direction - what about the option that Firearms Proficiency is a form of martial art- with the rise of CQB and other integrated fighting systems, does the handgun become like the katana? what makes a martial art? is a dedicated student of the gun, who practices with it and prepares for real world use not a martial artist? Got to thinking about this when I talked to a friend of mine, a 19 year student of Iajatsu (spelling may be wrong) and damned good shot with a pistol...

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shakran

yes, but to most people proficiency with a gun just means you can hit the deer more often than not.

I guess the reason I'd take MA over gun training is because gun training can give you a false sense of security.

Most of the gun people I've talked to have asinine answers to the "what if" questions.

What if you're grabbed by an attacker late at night?
I'd pull out my gun and shoot him.

What if you're threatened by a guy with a knife?
I'd pull out my gun and shoot him.

What if you're held at gunpoint?
I'd pull out my gun and shoot him.


Guns give you two basic options. Threaten someone with the gun, and shoot someone with the gun. If the criminal isn't threatening your life, one of the options - shooting the SOB - goes right out the window. Well maybe it's my martial arts training coming out, but I don't believe in brandishing a weapon that for whatever reason I can't use. If I pull my knife on you, that means I intend to try to kill you with it.

In fact, as stupid as it may sound, there have been some cases where a victim was threatened, the victim pulled

his gun to scare the attacker, the attacker got scared, pulled his own gun and shot the victim, and the killing was justified under the law because the attacker was now in fear of "death or great bodily harm." I think this is ridiculous, but that's the legal system we're working under.

I figure gun training would be supremely useful in a situation where someone is about to kill or seriously injure me or someone I'm with. In any other attack situation, the gun becomes useless because if I use it, I go to jail and rot for a long time. Again IMHO, this shouldn't be - we should approach this more like Texas does, which is the only state that figures if you get shot while robbing a house it's your own damn fault and not the homeowner's. Unfortunately, as long as the other states don't see it that way, and as long as I don't live in Texas, I'm not willing to go to jail just to avoid a beating.

However, I CAN use my MA training to get out of those much more numerous situations where my life isn't threatened but the guy's trying to hurt me.

Lebell

A few points I wanted to address in this post:


A dumbass (DA) is a dumbass is a dumbass and it makes no difference if said dumbass goes and buys a .44 magnum and thinks he's Dirty Harry or if he spends six months practicing his Karate and thinks he's Bruce Lee.

The DA will have a false sense of security either way and is likely to end up in serious trouble.

The flip is also true. A smart person knows when to retreat and when to use the options available to them.

As a gun owner and CCW holder, I know that there is only one justification for pulling out my weapon; I or someone around me is being threatened and there is the possibility of great bodily harm or worse.

I admit I don't know whether to be offended by this or astounded.

Are you really saying that defending yourself with deadly force against someone who grabs you or pulls a knife on you isn't a good option??

Because to me, this isn't a game and if someone is willing to do something like this, I will assume that my life means nothing to them and that I am in deadly danger and that the best course of action is to end the encounter quickly and with decisive, overwhelming force.

Yes, I'm sorry to say this does sound stupid.

I know of no cases or juristictions in the United States where this has happened.

The law in Colorado is quite clear on this. If the attacker is still in the process of attacking, they cannot justify pulling a gun and shooting you in "self defense". For this to happen, they would have had to break off their attack so that the person originally being attacked was no longer in danger and then began a new attack on the former attacker.

So if you have a link to a story where this actually happened somewhere, please provide it.

Some states use the "back against the wall" standard where a homeowner is expected to retreat until they can retreat no further and then they are allowed to use deadly force. Others, like Colorado and Texas allow a homeowner to use deadly force when a person enters their home in the commission of a felony.

But again, if you see me with my gun out, we are not playing a game. It is out because I see you as a legitimate threat to my personal safety and I am prepared to end that threat. If I can retreat and avoid the situation, I will. If I can talk my way out of it, I will.

But if you are intent on forcing a confrontation, be prepared to pay the price.

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Baldrick

Horrible example. I seriously doubt that the busload of nuns will be pissed at the person who stepped out of the line of fire. I'd be willing to bet they're pissed at the jackass who fired the gun.

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debaser

It is a very good example. I'm not talking about the legality of the situation, I'm talking about thinking far too much of your skills and getting someone else hurt/killed because you fuck up.

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Stare At The Sun

Heh, ever see the movie "Equilibrium"

And yes, i agree

hiromu

a side note here: Ueshiba O'Sensei (the founder of Aikido) once challenged some riflemen to shoot him. as they fired O'Sensei "dodged bullets" (not really, probably). not a real-life example by any means, so it's not meant to be an argument; just a little side note.
here's a secondary account: http://www.aikidojournal.com/new/art...?ArticleID=485
there's a discussion on it at as well, at http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...&threadid=3986

Stare At The Sun

Bullshit, untill i see a video.

Lebell

I also call BS without proof.


A .223 travels around 3000 fps out of the barrel where as the transmission speed of nerve signals have been determined to be around the 600-700 fps range.

So even if the individual could actually see the bullet leaving the gun, they could not send the signal to their muscles fast enough to get out of the way.

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numist_net

no matter what, it depends on proficiency.

I could kill someone from a little over 900 meters with a gun with very reliable accuracy, having trained as such.

I could also kill someone with my open hand from 2 feet away, having also trained as such.

Anyone who happens to have a hand or a rifle can't just go out and do that, so the argument becomes one of skill, not hardware.

btw, according to the O'Sensei story, this was a time when airguns were in common usage, because the did not project smoke and block visibility, yet still caused fatalities to those that were shot, and those have barrel speeds of anywhere from 400 - 1200 fps, depending on the rifle, with speeds exceeding that only with recent technology using compressed air cartridges.

Moonduck

"No argument there. On the other hand, I worked retail for enough years to know that people RARELY go for quality when money is on the line. People'll buy the cheapest crap they can find as long as it looks kinda close to the good stuff."

True that, but with the exception of certain crappy imports, even the cheap stuff is pretty damn good these days.

"Point! You're absolutely correct that most schools teach this kind of drivel. Now, admittedly when I answered the original question I was talking about a REAL martial arts school, not a sport kidrate school. If you learn to fight for real, I'll put my money on the martial artist before I put my money on the terrified civilian with the gun."

In this, we agree 100%. I would also place good money on the martial artists that I consider quality from serious systems, over said civilian. Even over a number of non-civilians.

"And the other 10% you have to shoot the SOB and you wind up in jail. "

I am the first to admit that it is less than perfect, but I do like those 90% success rate odds =)

"I'm not saying martial arts are the ONLY answer either. I'm saying that given the CHOICE between martial arts and guns, I'd choose martial arts because I can use martial arts in ANY attack. I cannot use a gun in a non-lethal attack without a guaranteed jail sentence."

We agree more than we disagree. My main point leaned towards solid MA training in the majority of situations.

"OK, so let's say that we have a gun that never misfires, never jams - it's the 100% reliable gun (any soldier will tell you there's no such animal). "

Shit, I'm a civilian and I'll tell you that there is no such thing. I've put literally hundreds of thousands of rounds downrange in the 25 years I've been shooting. I know all about the lack of perfect reliability. I've even had revolvers fail on me, and they are as fool-proof as guns come.

"Now take the average gun owner, who's taken the absolute bare minimum training he could get away with to get his permit, and hasn't been to a range since. He's never been in any sort of fighting situation (which, btw you will get in a good dojo), and now he's being mugged. Vast likelihood is that he'll miss with at least the first two shots, and he has a very good chance of emptying his clip without coming close to his target. "

Well, I will stick with my 90% number and say that the simple act of brandishing a gun will get you out of most assaults.

"Scenario 2: Guy grabs you from behind, wraps his arm around your neck, and sticks a gun/knife in your back. Who's the more likely to get out of that situation, the guy with a gun in his jacket or the guy who knows how to disarm the attacker?"

Gun or not, Martial Arts or not, you're fucked in this scenario. If I am so completely fricken unaware that some dipwad could get that close to me without my permission, his ninja-ass deserves my wallet.

"The simple fact of the matter is that while guns certainly have their place and are very effective with dealing with specific situations, proper martial arts training gives a person a much broader range of capabilities than having a gun does."

No disagreement, but you also must admit that the gun gives one capability that MA does not - range. Honestly, it is an apples and oranges argument.

Moonduck

Sharan wrote:
"plus the fact that you can put all the pressure you want on that trigger, but if my hand is jamming the slide/hammer the gun isn't gonna fire "

Debaser responded:
"This is dangerously incorrect. An automatic will fire regardless of your hand on the slide (which it won't be after it fires, trust me)."

Erm, Shakran is correct. If you jam your hand against the front of the slide of a semi-auto pistol, you bring it out of battery by pushing the slide rearward. Pretty much all semi-autos are designed to be incapable of firing when out of battery. It just won't happen due to design. Try it with your unloaded weapon and you will see what I am saying.

debaser

I know exactly what you are saying, but it is almost imposible to do unless you have both hands on the pistol. Why are you going to continue to put forward pressure while he pushes on the front of your weapon rather than simply relaxing your grip then blowing his hand off? Remember, this is all happening in fractions of a second. The way I interpreted his post was that once he was preventing the slide from cycling, the weapon would not work.

This would error would simply leave you with a bullet wound AND a mangled hand.

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shakran

"Gun or not, Martial Arts or not, you're fucked in this scenario. If I am so completely fricken unaware that some dipwad could get that close to me without my permission, his ninja-ass deserves my wallet. "

Your second sentence is right on point! but I disagree that you're fucked. There are ways to disarm an attacker when he's behind you - - not saying they're easy and I'm certainly not saying they're dangerous, but if you're in that situation and have the choice between maybe dying and absolutely dying, I'll take the maybe alternative

re: the slide:

No, I never said that jamming your hand in a slide will fail the weapon permanently. I said it will stop the weapon from firing. And it will.

Of course, it'll also pinch the holy hell outa your hand (esp. if it's a hammer rather than a slide), so when I did this disarm a couple of years ago in a mugging I wound up with a big infected wound in the web between my thumb and finger for a week, but I'd say it was worth it

debaser

Explain how you would jam your hand in the slide of an automatic pistol. I am still confused by your wording.

If you ae talking about taking it out of lock, or battery, then that is easier said than done with a modern pistol.

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zfleebin

So, my understanding is you could stop a gun by getting your hand somehow tangled in the action? Are you talking about doing this from the front or the back of the gun and how quick do you think you could this supposing it can be done?

j8ear

anyone else smelling bullshit here?

I'd even ~like~ to hear what sensi "darkblack" has to offer on this subject as his commentary in the past at least sounded reasonable.

Moonduck

Well, what I am talking about is moving it out of lock/battery. Not impossible to do, merely difficult. The flip side of that is that I am perfectly willing to try said difficult move only if I have no other choice. My wallet is much easier to replace than my hand.

I guess the lesson here is to use a hammerless revolver if you are mugging a martial artist =)

zfleebin

your still not being specific enough. Are you saying you are gonna do a karate chop at my action above my barrel before I pull the trigger? Or are you saying you are gonna try and pull the action back from the middle before I pull the trigger? And your saying your gonna do this while moving your entire body out of the range of fire. I would really like to hear exactly how this works not just that it gets the action out of lock.

seretogis

I admit that I haven't read all of the posts on this thread, because threads like it tend to turn into ego-fests, but I have a question to pose to you all in regards to martial arts vs. guns as methods of defense:

Which method is most likely to result in an attacker that will not get up, walk around, and sue you? The gun. It is because of this, that the gun (with proper training, etc etc) is the victor when it comes to self-defense.

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debaser

Of course a hammerless is the easiest to prevent from firing, just grab the cylinder. The gun cannot fire if it won't rotate.

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Moonduck

Not really. Very few people would be able to maintain the sort of grip on a cylinder that would be required to prevent it from rotating, especially when struggling for possession of the gun. It is far harder to stop cylinder rotation than hammer drop or pushing a slide out of battery.

seizei

... unless you don't live in the United States, and may go to jail for killing said attacker anyway regardless of what he was doing to you. Or for that matter, can't carry a gun around period. 1 vote for martial arts in Canada please. In the U.S., gimme that 9mm since everyone else seems to have one.

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WarWagon

I can't defend myself against a gun with my fists. Period. I'm an above average shooter in both rifle and pistol, so I'll stick with what I know best.

Moonduck

"1 vote for martial arts in Canada please. In the U.S., gimme that 9mm since everyone else seems to have one."

Oddly enough, I've lived in America most of my life. I've been shot at once and had a knife pulled on me once. Interestingly enough, both incidents occurred in West Germany (yes, back when there was a West Germany). It's a fun joke to talk about America like everyone here is armed. The reality is slightly different. Yes, there are enough guns here to arm every adult male twice. Half of them are in G. Gordon Liddy's gun collection though, so it's not that big a deal.

queedo

I am a martial artist and I think a gun from medium to far range will beat any martial art. But if the gun is close enough and not used right away, a good martial artist at least has a chance to disarm or disable the person with the gun.

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biznotch

wow this thread was a bitch to read...it took me like more than half an hour but I finally got to the end.
I do smell a lot of b/s in this post. I myself haven't met that many experts in martial arts or gun firing in my life. And the fact that there's supposedly a dozen of people or more that posted in thread that have like 20 years of martial arts training or are experts in gun shooting kinda makes me sick. I mean it might true for some of you guys, but a lot are just talking crap

About the initial issue: we're all repeating each other. OK, a fucker with a gun can give anyone a hot lead facelift from long range distance.
OK, a martial arts expert can disarm a guy by making him flip over his shoulder, take his gun, lie him on the ground, aim at his face and stand one foot on his chest all the while dancing or whistling "Puff the Magic Dragon", but we're not all fucking Jackie Chan. We're just not. OK, we can jam a gun with our hand. But the guy with the gun has to smoke a pound of weed to be as slow as it takes not to react to the guy moving his hand toward his gun. I mean anyone with his finger on a trigger aiming at someone would always shoot at the person at any sudden move in a microsecond or less, its a reflex.
and for dodging bullets: BULLSHIT
no question on that.
I hope no one got offended by my post, I dont want beef with you guys, considering that half of you are Jackie Chans and the other half have magnums, shottys and nines in their houses and carry their Glock 21 when they go to the supermarket.
I live in New York, I'm white and walk thru Harlem every morning and afternoon wearing a tie and I don't feel like someone's gonna pop a driveby on my ass. I mean the chance that you get shot while buying you BigMac at Mcdonalds is really small. I dont think you should this as seriously. And half of you have lived through armed attacks and mugs by disarming the opponent when he has pointing a gun at you and held the gun at his face till the popo arrived....
anyways...peace to all, I don't think guns can resolve anything, considering that the only way to use a gun to defend yourself is by killing or inflicting serious damage. Martial arts seem better being a defense thing...
well I'll see yall later. answer...

Lebell

I don't know about anyone else, but that seems like a pretty definite resolution.

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biznatch

going to jail is good resolution?

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Moonduck

That's the old "Violence doesn't solve anything", and I think Heinlein destroyed that piece of silliness beautifully in "Starship Troopers" (the book, not the shite movie), and Lebell echoes that idea in this thread.

I'm not a martial arts expert. Only taken MA training for about 3 years. I have been shooting for better'n 20 years though. Don't claim to be an awesome shot however. It's a fun hobby. It is very easy to discuss such concepts without being either a balck belt or a Marine Scout Sniper though. It's called having an opinion and being able to reason out scenarios.

Lebell

If I'm defending myself with a gun, I guarentee that the situation is such that I won't end up in jail for doing it.

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biznotch

ok...
If I shoot a man and kill him. I dont think I'll ever recover completely from it. You guys might call me a pussy, but thats because this country and its culture (movies, books) that often circles aound violence has made killing an everyday event.
I'm French, by the way, live in New York and I hope you don't judge me because of my nationality.
But I think when someones kills another it just stays in its mind forever. Movies and video games want to make you believe that you can stop the guy from pounding youwith his Glock.
But like a guy said before in this post, if a fucker sneaks up on me and aims his gun a me, he does deserve my wallet. What do you prefer, your money or your life? Dont be too arrogant, don't think you can solve anything. Especially not one of the gun jams with your hand. If you miss you're dead. If the guy expects that(and he might) you're dead. So dont try anything stupid.
And now I do expect someone to answer by "Yes, Dad" or something, lol

"If I'm defending myself with a gun, I guarentee that the situation is such that I won't end up in jail for doing it."
- Lebell
You dont pick the way that things turn, man. The justice can make it a racial slurr if the guys ethnicity is different from yours, there are all kinds of possibilities that u do end up rotting in a cell..dont "guarantee" anything thats not your decision but the Judiciary system's decision