Romanian AK? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

cj2112 · 03-08-2010, 09:12 PM

I may have an opportunity to buy a Romanian AK knock-off at a pretty decent price. I had never really considered buying one, so I never really bothered to learn much about them. What should I look out for, or should I turn and run? If so, why?

Plan9 · 03-08-2010, 09:14 PM

The Romanian SAR-1 is one of the best budget AKs you can buy. I have several and they're real workhorses.

Take out the carrier and examine the piston. If it's a single piece without weld marks, you've got a winner.

KirStang · 03-08-2010, 09:56 PM

Check to make sure the front sight is not canted either. I'm not sure if you're talking about a SAR-1 or a WASR-10 (which is what I have). But also see if the magazine wobbles excessively (doesn't affect functionality but I don't like it).

Finally, check this thread:

What would one look for if they decided to buy an AK? - M4Carbine.net Forums

Good info.

cj2112 · 03-08-2010, 10:11 PM

It is a WASR-10. Looks like I have a bit of reading to do before I lay down some cash. I'm not quite sold on this rifle yet, local cost and availability of 7.62x39 will weigh heavily on my decision.

Plan9 · 03-08-2010, 10:44 PM

I'd avoid the WASR and hold out for a SAR-1 or just buy a VZ58 when you have the cash.

The_Dunedan · 03-09-2010, 09:07 AM

The WASR-10 and SAR-1 are virtually identical. The only real difference is when they were built (ie SAR-1 is ban-era, therefore no flash-hider or bayonet lug, and don't even think of adding one) and what the Romanians decided to name 'em. Kinda like how the PLS is also the SSG-97. The VZ is -really- cool and handles beautifully, but parts and magazines just aren't available in the same quantity or for the same price as the AK. 7.62x39 is finally out there in some quantity again, but the days of $99/1000 are gone with the wind. Some dealers are dumping ammo inventory for low prices to maintain cashflow, but that's it for deals.

The thing to remember is that an AK is an AK is an AK. The price difference between models and countries of origin mostly reflects features and fit/finish quality. No real difference between a $600 WASR-10 and an $800 M70A except for the fact that some folks want the Yugo's comfey grip, more secure dust-cover, and grenade sight. The AK-47 is designed to do one thing: function reliably and with acceptable accuracy in the filthiest conditions imaginable while being handled by an illiterate conscript from Bumfuck, Siberia. Everything beyond this capability is secondary at best.

Plan9 · 03-09-2010, 09:24 AM

Yeah, the SAR-1 is a Clinton AK. From what I've seen, they're actually worth more than the WASR-10. Are post-ban double-stack WASRs really that close? I heard they're plagued with mag wobble as they all started out as single stacks. I saw a noticeable difference in the ones I looked at a few years ago but maybe that was the just the batch. No dimples scares me. Anyway, I don't particularly care for a flash hider or bayonet lug on an AK, so it didn't matter to me. I just wanted to make sure the carrier was a single piece and the finish wasn't done by a kid on the Warsaw Pact side with a can of Krylon.

Sure, the VZ .58 is more rare, but definitely doable. I feel its a better alternative than an straight AKM minus the ubiquitous pile of replacement parts. The mags are 50% lighter, the receiver is more sturdy, the action is sweet... the gun a lot more refined. Heh, maybe I should go out and buy one.

...

So, like I said... avoid the WASR-10 and get a SAR-1. AIM has some Bulgarian RPKs on sale, too.

KirStang · 03-09-2010, 11:10 AM

VZ 58s are available for about ~$600 or so on gunbroker.

Mags aren't that expensive either. I think it's well worth it for a refined AK platform (better selector, bolt hold open, sturdy lightweight milled receiver and mags.) IIRC the receiver of the milled VZ 58 is 1 lb lighter than the AK, and the mags are also 1/2 the weight of AK mags...

Worth looking in to as an alternative.

The_Dunedan · 03-09-2010, 06:08 PM

I'm not saying the VZ-58 is a bad weapon, it's not. I personally prefer it to the AK when comparing handling, ergonomics, weight, etc. The mags -are- available, as are the requisite spares. However, they're none of them cheap, although methinks that soon dealers who stocked up at the tail end of last year's buying rush may soon be dumping stocks. The Czech design is beautiful, and I love it, but it has its' intrinsic downsides due to market conditions that need to be addressed. Also (and this is potentially important) its' reliability under combat conditions has not been properly tested, at least not -nearly- to the degree of the AK. Sacrificing the AK's legendary reliability is occasionally worth it, but taking that risk in a weapon that costs a bit more and is much harder to find parts and mags for? Don't get me wrong; for all I know the VZ-58 is even more reliable than the AK. A column in Shotgun News recently suggested as much. But it doesn't have the combat record to prove it, unlike the AK. When given the choice between the two, at least at first, I'd stick with the AK. After I'd learned that and got used to the unique zeitgeist of Warsaw Pact small arms, -then- I'd invest in the VZ-58.

A word about the Czechs and Slovaks, or Czechoslovakia in this era. They always marched to their own drummers. Ignoring the USSR's demands, the initially adopted a sort of ".308-lite," a 7.62x45mm round which later earned a reputation as an excellent manstopper during the Rhodesian bush wars. When the Soviets forced them to adopt the 7.62x39, which the ballistic eggheads and general gun-nuts in Brno regarded as insufficiently powerful, they deliberately designed their own rifle around the cartridge. I love the VZ-58 for this reason alone. It also seems to have been much more designed around the prospect of serving as an oversized submachinegun rather than an undersized rifle, if that makes any sense, and handles beautifully. It would make a superb CQB setup. But IMO one should learn/own/stock for the AK and AR first since they're much more common not only worldwide but locally as well, and easy to find replacement parts for in the event of excessive wear or failure. Sadly, the VZ-58 never saw much export success, hence the lack of parts and mags. They're out there, but harder to find. Just IMO, if I were you I'd use the VZ-58 to fill out an already expanding collection. If I was just starting, I'd go for the inexpensive Romanian that'd get me used to the unique demands of living and practicing with an AK. Then after a few rounds and a bit of setting aside, I'd go for the VZ. Bear in mind my position makes me slightly if unconsciously biased.

Plan9 · 03-09-2010, 06:11 PM

You're a font of knowledge, dude. Impressive.

03-08-2010, 09:12 PM	#1 (permalink)
cj2112 Unbelievable Location: Grants Pass OR	Romanian AK? I may have an opportunity to buy a Romanian AK knock-off at a pretty decent price. I had never really considered buying one, so I never really bothered to learn much about them. What should I look out for, or should I turn and run? If so, why?

03-08-2010, 09:14 PM	#2 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	The Romanian SAR-1 is one of the best budget AKs you can buy. I have several and they're real workhorses. Take out the carrier and examine the piston. If it's a single piece without weld marks, you've got a winner. __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake."

03-08-2010, 10:44 PM	#5 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	I'd avoid the WASR and hold out for a SAR-1 or just buy a VZ58 when you have the cash. __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake." Last edited by Plan9; 03-09-2010 at 09:27 AM..

03-09-2010, 09:24 AM	#7 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	Yeah, the SAR-1 is a Clinton AK. From what I've seen, they're actually worth more than the WASR-10. Are post-ban double-stack WASRs really that close? I heard they're plagued with mag wobble as they all started out as single stacks. I saw a noticeable difference in the ones I looked at a few years ago but maybe that was the just the batch. No dimples scares me. Anyway, I don't particularly care for a flash hider or bayonet lug on an AK, so it didn't matter to me. I just wanted to make sure the carrier was a single piece and the finish wasn't done by a kid on the Warsaw Pact side with a can of Krylon. Sure, the VZ .58 is more rare, but definitely doable. I feel its a better alternative than an straight AKM minus the ubiquitous pile of replacement parts. The mags are 50% lighter, the receiver is more sturdy, the action is sweet... the gun a lot more refined. Heh, maybe I should go out and buy one. ... So, like I said... avoid the WASR-10 and get a SAR-1. AIM has some Bulgarian RPKs on sale, too. __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake." Last edited by Plan9; 03-09-2010 at 09:41 AM..

03-09-2010, 06:11 PM	#10 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	You're a font of knowledge, dude. Impressive. __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake."

03-08-2010, 09:56 PM	#3 (permalink)
KirStang Future Bureaucrat	Check to make sure the front sight is not canted either. I'm not sure if you're talking about a SAR-1 or a WASR-10 (which is what I have). But also see if the magazine wobbles excessively (doesn't affect functionality but I don't like it). Finally, check this thread: What would one look for if they decided to buy an AK? - M4Carbine.net Forums Good info.

03-08-2010, 10:11 PM	#4 (permalink)
cj2112 Unbelievable Location: Grants Pass OR	It is a WASR-10. Looks like I have a bit of reading to do before I lay down some cash. I'm not quite sold on this rifle yet, local cost and availability of 7.62x39 will weigh heavily on my decision.

03-09-2010, 09:07 AM	#6 (permalink)
The_Dunedan Junkie	The WASR-10 and SAR-1 are virtually identical. The only real difference is when they were built (ie SAR-1 is ban-era, therefore no flash-hider or bayonet lug, and don't even think of adding one) and what the Romanians decided to name 'em. Kinda like how the PLS is also the SSG-97. The VZ is -really- cool and handles beautifully, but parts and magazines just aren't available in the same quantity or for the same price as the AK. 7.62x39 is finally out there in some quantity again, but the days of $99/1000 are gone with the wind. Some dealers are dumping ammo inventory for low prices to maintain cashflow, but that's it for deals. The thing to remember is that an AK is an AK is an AK. The price difference between models and countries of origin mostly reflects features and fit/finish quality. No real difference between a $600 WASR-10 and an $800 M70A except for the fact that some folks want the Yugo's comfey grip, more secure dust-cover, and grenade sight. The AK-47 is designed to do one thing: function reliably and with acceptable accuracy in the filthiest conditions imaginable while being handled by an illiterate conscript from Bumfuck, Siberia. Everything beyond this capability is secondary at best.

03-09-2010, 11:10 AM	#8 (permalink)
KirStang Future Bureaucrat	VZ 58s are available for about ~$600 or so on gunbroker. Mags aren't that expensive either. I think it's well worth it for a refined AK platform (better selector, bolt hold open, sturdy lightweight milled receiver and mags.) IIRC the receiver of the milled VZ 58 is 1 lb lighter than the AK, and the mags are also 1/2 the weight of AK mags... Worth looking in to as an alternative.

03-09-2010, 06:08 PM	#9 (permalink)
The_Dunedan Junkie	I'm not saying the VZ-58 is a bad weapon, it's not. I personally prefer it to the AK when comparing handling, ergonomics, weight, etc. The mags -are- available, as are the requisite spares. However, they're none of them cheap, although methinks that soon dealers who stocked up at the tail end of last year's buying rush may soon be dumping stocks. The Czech design is beautiful, and I love it, but it has its' intrinsic downsides due to market conditions that need to be addressed. Also (and this is potentially important) its' reliability under combat conditions has not been properly tested, at least not -nearly- to the degree of the AK. Sacrificing the AK's legendary reliability is occasionally worth it, but taking that risk in a weapon that costs a bit more and is much harder to find parts and mags for? Don't get me wrong; for all I know the VZ-58 is even more reliable than the AK. A column in Shotgun News recently suggested as much. But it doesn't have the combat record to prove it, unlike the AK. When given the choice between the two, at least at first, I'd stick with the AK. After I'd learned that and got used to the unique zeitgeist of Warsaw Pact small arms, -then- I'd invest in the VZ-58. A word about the Czechs and Slovaks, or Czechoslovakia in this era. They always marched to their own drummers. Ignoring the USSR's demands, the initially adopted a sort of ".308-lite," a 7.62x45mm round which later earned a reputation as an excellent manstopper during the Rhodesian bush wars. When the Soviets forced them to adopt the 7.62x39, which the ballistic eggheads and general gun-nuts in Brno regarded as insufficiently powerful, they deliberately designed their own rifle around the cartridge. I love the VZ-58 for this reason alone. It also seems to have been much more designed around the prospect of serving as an oversized submachinegun rather than an undersized rifle, if that makes any sense, and handles beautifully. It would make a superb CQB setup. But IMO one should learn/own/stock for the AK and AR first since they're much more common not only worldwide but locally as well, and easy to find replacement parts for in the event of excessive wear or failure. Sadly, the VZ-58 never saw much export success, hence the lack of parts and mags. They're out there, but harder to find. Just IMO, if I were you I'd use the VZ-58 to fill out an already expanding collection. If I was just starting, I'd go for the inexpensive Romanian that'd get me used to the unique demands of living and practicing with an AK. Then after a few rounds and a bit of setting aside, I'd go for the VZ. Bear in mind my position makes me slightly if unconsciously biased.