Think Non-Lethal rounds are effective? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Slims · 06-27-2009, 05:42 PM

Check this out:

Soaked SamuraiVideo

The guy in the video eats near a dozen beanbag rounds and they only make him flinch a little bit.

I was honestly surprised when I saw this video. I thought those beanbag rounds did more damage.

Willravel · 06-27-2009, 05:55 PM

Nothing is perfectly consistent. Some people can take a real round in the shoulder, some people can get killed by a beanbag.

squeeeb · 06-27-2009, 08:28 PM

also it depends on if the guy in real life has taken any drugs that would kill or make him ignore his pain receptors. imagine a large large large man on coke and maybe some other things, he might not care how much that beanbag hurt. or how much the stick blow to the head hurt.

Slims · 06-28-2009, 08:42 AM

I'm not saying bean-bag rounds won't drop most people. I was surprised by how useless they were against this particular person, which indicates they may be less-reliable in general than I realized (even if they sometimes kill people).

Willravel · 06-28-2009, 09:18 AM

After watching the video, the thickness of his clothing might be softening the blow from the bean bags. He may even have a ballistic vest on under the jacket.

fast1 · 06-28-2009, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

After watching the video, the thickness of his clothing might be softening the blow from the bean bags. He may even have a ballistic vest on under the jacket.

that is a good point

telekinetic · 06-28-2009, 10:43 AM

First of all, PCP is a hell of a drug...much more likely candidate than coke. Second, I've never been a fan of less-lethal rounds. Their effects vary from nothing to death, which makes it hard to know if you are using appropriate force. The same can be said for hollowpoints, I suppose, but they err much more strongly on the 'death and disablement' side of the spectrum. Third, this is a good object lesson for concealed carry. If Samurai man had approached you in the street with intent to injure, what would you have done? Whipped out your handy 12 gauge beanbag shotgun, softened him up a bit, then hit him with high pressure water, then pinned him with a ladder and used your remote lasso to disarm him? Or, alternately put a couple JHPs center mass from a reasonably safe distance.

MSD · 06-28-2009, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twistedmosaic

Third, this is a good object lesson for concealed carry. If Samurai man had approached you in the street with intent to injure, what would you have done? Whipped out your handy 12 gauge beanbag shotgun, softened him up a bit, then hit him with high pressure water, then pinned him with a ladder and used your remote lasso to disarm him? Or, alternately put a couple JHPs center mass from a reasonably safe distance.

C: Run like a pansy and leave him for the police to deal with.

also, it looks like the first one bounced off the ground, and the next 3 missed him completely. Only once he was out away from the wall did they hit him, and it was through several layers of clothes, one likely being armored.

Willravel · 06-28-2009, 05:40 PM

Tase the sword!

Gabbyness · 06-29-2009, 09:20 AM

Dude, he took those beanbags in the beanbag! That was a pretty impressive show of pain management, even if he was packin' an iron cup!

Ilow · 06-29-2009, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabbyness

Dude, he took those beanbags in the beanbag! That was a pretty impressive show of pain management, even if he was packin' an iron cup!

Seriously, a couple of those beanbags totally pouched him. Hopefully they did enough damage that he can't reproduce. I'd def say he was armored, probably in a couple places.

Slims · 06-29-2009, 06:47 PM

I don't think he was wearing armor. He definitely looks disturbed, and he is wearing layered clothes which probably absorbed a lot of the impact...but not the rounds which hit him in the thigh/sack (the only real-armor for that is bulky) or the rounds which hit him in places where his clothes were tight against his body.

At the end of the day, whether it was preparation, drugs, or sheer crazy, beanbags were simply not able to stop this guy.

Beanbag rounds work fine against your average Hippy, but not so much the dude who really, really just wants a good old fashioned sword fight.

Willravel · 06-29-2009, 07:35 PM

Some hippies take PCP.

Plan9 · 06-29-2009, 08:13 PM

Hey, a situation where something didn't work as planned. Sweet.

...

Guy gets major points for wearing a cool retro leather jacket while swinging a katana. That's post-apoc tacticool.

...

Been said and clearly demonstrated in the video clip... but:

I'd imagine those who've handled a gun once or twice only use less-than-lethal munitions on an assailant because they're also equipped with lethal alternative ammunition / weapon. LTL munitions give you more options, the LTL alternative... but that alternative is to the JHP that TwistedMosaic so eloquently pointed out. It would be a huge "whoa shit" moment if you popped a guy with something that's killed people before and he didn't go down, but it wouldn't take but a second to transition to a secondary and put a few center mass. Ideally, you'd have a pump shotgun to put a beanbag in so you could follow it up immediately with buckshot.

Escalation of force (at distance), what LTL ammo provides, is a good idea in the law enforcement world where killing people isn't what you get paid for exclusively. If it was the military? The escalation of force is shout, shove, show and shoot... which basically means Don't Shoot, We're Cowards if you're in the regular army. Non-douches get to pop the mofo... no questions, minimal paperwork. My whining aside, my feeling is that LTL is totally good at what it's designed to do. Your expectations and LTL deployment results may vary. The other side of the argument would be, "Well, the beanbags didn't kill the guy."

...

Heh... reminds me of those Magpul classes where that Costa dude yells "Bust 'em!" *weapon empties* "Fix it. FIX IT!"

Walt · 07-01-2009, 05:57 PM

My knowledge of less than lethal weapons is pretty limited, though I do have some experience (not as much as I would like) with beanbag rounds and pepper spray.

IMO beanbag/rubber buckshot ammunition is absolutely worthless. It's not bringing enough kinetic energy to put the average man on his ass, much less take him out of a fight if he's committed. I'd put it about on par with getting hit by a well-thrown baseball. While potentially lethal, a beanbag/rubber buckshot round is just a long range pain-compliance device.

Pepper spray is similar. It burns like hell and you end up blowing really cool snot bubbles, but thats about it. As far as I know, part of the requisite training that cops must receive in order to carry pepper spray is to get blasted full in the face, at close range with their eyes open. They must then fight, subdue and cuff a guy in a red man suit. Again, just a pain compliance device. Great for hippies but it in no way takes someone out of the fight.

Plan9 · 07-02-2009, 04:56 AM

The zinger is that most perps aren't that committed.

Ever see what a barking police dog does to a would-be riot?

It's all psychological and works like a charm.

'Dem fuckers scatter like cockroaches.

...

I'm not a genius, but I figure that:

LTL vs. Real is similar to 9mm vs. .45.

...

Walter's on the ball:

Pain compliance versus threat neutralization.

raptor9k · 07-02-2009, 02:15 PM

deleted

dissonance · 07-02-2009, 06:52 PM

I have actually been hit by a 12 gauge bean bag round. Stupid story, but it was part of an escalating drunken challenge one new years. Its very painful but will not take a determined attacker down. I had a bruise for over a month that covered a large part of my thigh. Taking one to the junk or neck/head should be an easy takedown on a normal person.

I heard from a former prison guard that they used them less after inmates got smart and made armor out of newspaper to put under their clothes.

Zeraph · 07-03-2009, 08:45 AM

Dude, cops aim for the dick! As Cartman once said, its not cool to shoot a guy in the dick!

Willravel · 07-03-2009, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walter Sobchak

IMO beanbag/rubber buckshot ammunition is absolutely worthless. It's not bringing enough kinetic energy to put the average man on his ass, much less take him out of a fight if he's committed. I'd put it about on par with getting hit by a well-thrown baseball. While potentially lethal, a beanbag/rubber buckshot round is just a long range pain-compliance device.

This is the result of one rubber bullet fired by an Oakland police officer on an anti-war protester back in April of 2003. Have you ever seen a baseball cause someone to bleed profusely from the neck?

Slims · 07-03-2009, 02:43 PM

Um, that's just a welt. She has no blood on her shirt and the capillaries are busted near her skin making it bright red. Normal for any hard-fast impact.

Willravel · 07-03-2009, 02:50 PM

The image you're seeing is after hospitalization. Look carefully at her neck. The wound on her neck was open and bleeding profusely before being treated.

Walt · 07-05-2009, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

This is the result of one rubber bullet fired by an Oakland police officer on an anti-war protester back in April of 2003. Have you ever seen a baseball cause someone to bleed profusely from the neck?

Looks like a welt to me - do an image search for "paintball bruises"

I've never seen anyone get hit in the face with a baseball as the helmet and natural batters stance protect from that happening. I have seen people get punched in the jaw with similar results. The head bleeds a lot from superficial wounds.

I can authoritatively say that cops are trained to shoot for center mass/legs exclusively when firing LTL rounds. For whatever reason, this young lady took a round to the jaw. A weak punch to the jaw is enough to knock a person cold, thus ending the fight. Had this woman been hit in the legs or chest, I dont believe that she would have been incapacitated unless she decided to give up.

06-27-2009, 05:42 PM	#1 (permalink)
Slims Eccentric insomniac Location: North Carolina	Think Non-Lethal rounds are effective? Check this out: Soaked SamuraiVideo The guy in the video eats near a dozen beanbag rounds and they only make him flinch a little bit. I was honestly surprised when I saw this video. I thought those beanbag rounds did more damage. __________________ "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

06-27-2009, 08:28 PM	#3 (permalink)
squeeeb part of the problem Location: hic et ubique	also it depends on if the guy in real life has taken any drugs that would kill or make him ignore his pain receptors. imagine a large large large man on coke and maybe some other things, he might not care how much that beanbag hurt. or how much the stick blow to the head hurt. __________________ onward to mayhem!

06-28-2009, 08:42 AM	#4 (permalink)
Slims Eccentric insomniac Location: North Carolina	I'm not saying bean-bag rounds won't drop most people. I was surprised by how useless they were against this particular person, which indicates they may be less-reliable in general than I realized (even if they sometimes kill people). __________________ "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

06-28-2009, 10:43 AM	#7 (permalink)
telekinetic zomgomgomgomgomgomg Location: Fauxenix, Azerona	First of all, PCP is a hell of a drug...much more likely candidate than coke. Second, I've never been a fan of less-lethal rounds. Their effects vary from nothing to death, which makes it hard to know if you are using appropriate force. The same can be said for hollowpoints, I suppose, but they err much more strongly on the 'death and disablement' side of the spectrum. Third, this is a good object lesson for concealed carry. If Samurai man had approached you in the street with intent to injure, what would you have done? Whipped out your handy 12 gauge beanbag shotgun, softened him up a bit, then hit him with high pressure water, then pinned him with a ladder and used your remote lasso to disarm him? Or, alternately put a couple JHPs center mass from a reasonably safe distance. __________________ twisted no more

06-29-2009, 09:20 AM	#10 (permalink)
Gabbyness Chicken scratch. Location: Japan!!!	Dude, he took those beanbags in the beanbag! That was a pretty impressive show of pain management, even if he was packin' an iron cup! __________________ One, two, three, four, fiiiiiiiifth.

06-27-2009, 05:55 PM	#2 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Nothing is perfectly consistent. Some people can take a real round in the shoulder, some people can get killed by a beanbag.

06-28-2009, 09:18 AM	#5 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	After watching the video, the thickness of his clothing might be softening the blow from the bean bags. He may even have a ballistic vest on under the jacket.

06-28-2009, 05:40 PM	#9 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Tase the sword!

06-29-2009, 06:47 PM	#12 (permalink)
Slims Eccentric insomniac Location: North Carolina	I don't think he was wearing armor. He definitely looks disturbed, and he is wearing layered clothes which probably absorbed a lot of the impact...but not the rounds which hit him in the thigh/sack (the only real-armor for that is bulky) or the rounds which hit him in places where his clothes were tight against his body. At the end of the day, whether it was preparation, drugs, or sheer crazy, beanbags were simply not able to stop this guy. Beanbag rounds work fine against your average Hippy, but not so much the dude who really, really just wants a good old fashioned sword fight. __________________ "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

06-29-2009, 07:35 PM	#13 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Some hippies take PCP.

06-29-2009, 08:13 PM	#14 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	Hey, a situation where something didn't work as planned. Sweet. ... Guy gets major points for wearing a cool retro leather jacket while swinging a katana. That's post-apoc tacticool. ... Been said and clearly demonstrated in the video clip... but: I'd imagine those who've handled a gun once or twice only use less-than-lethal munitions on an assailant because they're also equipped with lethal alternative ammunition / weapon. LTL munitions give you more options, the LTL alternative... but that alternative is to the JHP that TwistedMosaic so eloquently pointed out. It would be a huge "whoa shit" moment if you popped a guy with something that's killed people before and he didn't go down, but it wouldn't take but a second to transition to a secondary and put a few center mass. Ideally, you'd have a pump shotgun to put a beanbag in so you could follow it up immediately with buckshot. Escalation of force (at distance), what LTL ammo provides, is a good idea in the law enforcement world where killing people isn't what you get paid for exclusively. If it was the military? The escalation of force is shout, shove, show and shoot... which basically means Don't Shoot, We're Cowards if you're in the regular army. Non-douches get to pop the mofo... no questions, minimal paperwork. My whining aside, my feeling is that LTL is totally good at what it's designed to do. Your expectations and LTL deployment results may vary. The other side of the argument would be, "Well, the beanbags didn't kill the guy." ... Heh... reminds me of those Magpul classes where that Costa dude yells "Bust 'em!" weapon empties "Fix it. FIX IT!" __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake." Last edited by Plan9; 06-29-2009 at 08:38 PM..

07-01-2009, 05:57 PM	#15 (permalink)
Walt I'm calmer than you are, dude Location: North Carolina	My knowledge of less than lethal weapons is pretty limited, though I do have some experience (not as much as I would like) with beanbag rounds and pepper spray. IMO beanbag/rubber buckshot ammunition is absolutely worthless. It's not bringing enough kinetic energy to put the average man on his ass, much less take him out of a fight if he's committed. I'd put it about on par with getting hit by a well-thrown baseball. While potentially lethal, a beanbag/rubber buckshot round is just a long range pain-compliance device. Pepper spray is similar. It burns like hell and you end up blowing really cool snot bubbles, but thats about it. As far as I know, part of the requisite training that cops must receive in order to carry pepper spray is to get blasted full in the face, at close range with their eyes open. They must then fight, subdue and cuff a guy in a red man suit. Again, just a pain compliance device. Great for hippies but it in no way takes someone out of the fight. __________________ Calmer than you are...

07-02-2009, 04:56 AM	#16 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	The zinger is that most perps aren't that committed. Ever see what a barking police dog does to a would-be riot? It's all psychological and works like a charm. 'Dem fuckers scatter like cockroaches. ... I'm not a genius, but I figure that: LTL vs. Real is similar to 9mm vs. .45. ... Walter's on the ball: Pain compliance versus threat neutralization. __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake." Last edited by Plan9; 07-02-2009 at 05:00 AM..

07-02-2009, 02:15 PM	#17 (permalink)
raptor9k Crazy Location: Earth	deleted Last edited by raptor9k; 09-08-2021 at 04:55 AM..

07-02-2009, 06:52 PM	#18 (permalink)
dissonance Upright	I have actually been hit by a 12 gauge bean bag round. Stupid story, but it was part of an escalating drunken challenge one new years. Its very painful but will not take a determined attacker down. I had a bruise for over a month that covered a large part of my thigh. Taking one to the junk or neck/head should be an easy takedown on a normal person. I heard from a former prison guard that they used them less after inmates got smart and made armor out of newspaper to put under their clothes.

07-03-2009, 08:45 AM	#19 (permalink)
Zeraph Banned Location: The Cosmos	Dude, cops aim for the dick! As Cartman once said, its not cool to shoot a guy in the dick!

07-03-2009, 02:43 PM	#21 (permalink)
Slims Eccentric insomniac Location: North Carolina	Um, that's just a welt. She has no blood on her shirt and the capillaries are busted near her skin making it bright red. Normal for any hard-fast impact. __________________ "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

07-03-2009, 02:50 PM	#22 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	The image you're seeing is after hospitalization. Look carefully at her neck. The wound on her neck was open and bleeding profusely before being treated.