The_Dunedan

The tests I posted say otherwise, rather emphatically so.

markd4life

Ok, back to the thread.....'cheap' and 'home defense' I believe were the key words. I don't think he asked how is the best way to blow somebody away. My suggestion is keep an unloaded cheap shotgun nearby. It doesn't really matter what kind it is, just as long as it looks intimidating. Don't need shells unless you are planning on shooting somebody, so forget them. Thats cheap! And you won't shoot yourself in the foot, the children won't shoot themselves, and if a home intruder gets your gun, he can't shoot you. This is MY advice, because you seem not to be too familiar with guns....

mcgeedo

markd4life offers very good advice.

If you're not experienced with guns, your best bet is to keep an unloaded prop that looks like a gun, for the reasons he mentions.

If you are experienced with guns, then you have to honestly answer the question to yourself "under what circumstances would I shoot someone." If the answer is "if they entered my home and threatened me or my family," then honestly look at that scenario. You will likely be in your living room or your bedroom when (if) it happens. Where would you and the members of your family likely be at that time. How much time would you have to get and load your weapon, and which way would you be shooting.

When I work out this scenario for myself, my best choice is an unloaded shotgun near the bed.

Another strategy you might want to consider is deterrence. An NRA bumper sticker on your car and maybe a discrete little sign on the gate to your back yard "Gun control is being able to hit what you aim at." A potential home invader might see all this and go on to your neighbor with the Obama bumper sticker, feeling he'd rather face an unarmed homeowner than an armed one.

cj2112

DO NOT " keep an unloaded cheap shotgun nearby". If the intruder is armed, you are in a much worse position than you would be w/o the unloaded shotgun. Intimidation is not a very good defense. If the intruder is in your home, it's a safe bet he understands that he may come across a pissed off resident and is prepared to deal with that.

A Mossberg or Remington (really either one is fine) pump action,short barreled, tactical shotgun and a high quality flashlight will serve you well. Go to the range and fire this gun using the same loads you will be using for home defense. Practice clearing jams, practice firing from odd angles, shoot it a couple times without hearing protection. The goal is to practice scenarios that you are likely to encounter in a home defense situation.

KirStang

Respectfully guys, to bring up the threat of deadly force, only to not be able to follow through with it, is in a word--stupid. Once the spectre of deadly force is raised, the whole scenario is escalated to one of life or death. Imagine pumping the shotgun, and the burglar/whatever then realizing his life is in danger, storms the front with a knife, fearing for his/her life. What's the shotgun good for now? A club?

Just my two cents guys. Hope I haven't offended anyone.

MSD

One inch per foot is the typical spread on birdshot through a modified choke, and while you don't have to be quite as precise as with a rifle or handgun, you still have to point it very close to center of mass to incapacitate an attacker. Buck will stay pretty much inside the same circle, but what you absolutely have to do if you plan to have a home defense gun is to take it to the range and pattern it so you know what to expect.
If you have a gun for defense, you are, for the purposes of this discussion, planning to shoot someone. If you're not going to shoot, all a gun is good for is escalating the situation and increasing your chance of being shot.
Funny that you should say that, I was thinking the same thing about you based on the recommendation above.

Dragonknight

Ok here's my .02 cents based off of your original post and the fact that you later said that you have thin walls and are not familiar with guns.

Get a shotgun.
1. It requires less aim then that of a pistol or rifle because of spread. It does not alleviate the need to aim entirely but requires less then the other type of firearms.
Since you’re not trying to become a solid marksman this is the quickest solution.
2. When shot it make a lot of noise, more noise then you’re going to get out of most other firearms. While the sound of the gun being loaded May scare your intruder, the sound of a shotgun going off Will scare the shit out of your intruder (unless of course they are a trained pro who has been in a shoot out). Also I say a shotgun will be louder then most guns because if you have a large caliber pistol or rifle that too will make a lot of noise as well and punch straight through the afore mentioned thin walls possibly hurting/killing/damaging something other then your intended target. Something you don't want to do.

Lastly you said that you are getting a firearm because of a higher rate of armed-entry robberies key note on the ARMED part of that statement, if you shoot, shoot to kill. Aim center mass or for the head with a shotgun, even with bird shot one to the head will cause enough damage to change that person’s outlook on life long enough for you to finish the job. Find out the laws in your area to know what you can and can't do as far as shooting an intruder multiple time and what instance your shooting from (i.e. the back or front) so you cover your bases. Just remember if you shoot someone I don't think they are going to think about shooting you to wound you so they can run away. They will unload the clip and leave after that. Stop them before they stop you.

Well that was more like a dollar sorry, but it's what I have for you.

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telekinetic

I have to disagree with almost every point of your advice here, except the deterrence one, although anyone assuming all Obama supporters are unarmed is in for an unpleasant surprise.

Under no circumstances am I going to show myself (and my toy gun) to an attacker of unknown armed status, who knowingly broke in to an occupied house. That sounds like a good way to get killed dead, and reminds me of a certain scene from Snatch. What exactly was the scenario that played out in your mind where representing an escalation to lethal force without being able to deliver was a good idea?

As for my personal scenario, as someone "experienced with guns", I currently have a 2-story house, with all bedrooms upstairs. If a glass break/door/window alarm downstairs goes off, the home defense plan is I do a quick armed recon to the top of the stairs--they turn, so I could hear but not see, and the same for anyone downstairs. While I am doing this, the wife gets the kid(s) all in the master bedroom. If I hear trouble, the wife calls the cops, while I yell down the stairs something to the effect of "Get out of my house, the cops are on the way, if you come up the stairs I will fucking kill you." I'm actually thinking about having a steel plate installed in the landing wall, so that I can have a perfectly secure perch that looks down on the stairs...having such an easily defensible choke point was one of the highlights of a 2-story floor plan in my mind. As an added bonus, since I would be shooting down on any baddies, overpenetration into the ground doesn't bother me, and I can choose rounds and weapons for effectiveness (also at the moment, there is just a dirt lot in front of my house.)

Castle doctrine not withstanding, I would question the sanity of anyone who would leave a defensible choke point between badguys and family, and try to sweep their house like a one-man SWAT team, just so someone doesn't make off with their TV. If I lived alone, maybe, but the fact that one wrong move would leave my family undefended keeps me on strict defense.

Now, if someone is willing to break in while we are visibly downstairs in the living room, well...that is more trouble than I am willing to stay prepared for on a day-to-day basis. I solved this problem by moving to a classy neighborhood--home assaults of that nature are few and far between in the master planned communities of Gilbert. YMMV.

eXpired

A bit off-topic, but:
Excuse me if I'm wrong (as I don't have a clue about shotguns), but can't you just find some rock salt shells and use those instead? Hurts the intruder like hell too, but doesn't kill him/her.

Another alternative is rubber slugs or as I read on Wikipedia:
Although I suspect that last one is expensive.

<expects a "you're a noob" aimed towards me comment>

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markd4life

I believe the original question asked about the best shotgun for HOME SAFETY. SAFETY.
Not killing somebody. If some of you think its SAFE to leave a loaded shotgun around, then more power to ya. I am quite familiar with my shotgun, and I NEVER leave it loaded in my home. I don't know the guy that started this thread, hell he could be Rambo for all I know...but when someone asks me about the best shotgun for HOME SAFETY, ...I will always tell him the safest shotgun, is none at all......but if you must, do not leave it loaded! EVER! Firearm Safety 101, take a course.

Plan9

Draconis:

I'd recommend you look at the Mossberg 500/590, Remington 970, or Winchester 1300. All represent top drawer combat shotguns. The Mossberg is used by the military and features chunky internals that stand up to all sorts of abuse. The Remington has been made popular by police departments and is extremely common. The Winchester 1300 utilizes a fire-assisted pump mechanism with a rotating bolt. It’s very fast and has been compared to autoloaders.

All three brand names above are ubiquitous and their accessories are endless. I recommend getting a simple scope-ring style mount and attaching a bright flashlight to your choice.

Mossberg 590:



Remington 870:



Anormalguy:

A shoulder arm is more stable than a handgun as it utilizes three points of contact on the body when in the ready position (2 flexing points in the hands and 1 solid point in the shoulder pocket) and makes for better retention (two hands as well as cross-body orientation plus any carrying sling) and is easier to control during a hand-to-hand scuffle where it may be part of a grabbing game due to the longer barrel and stock. Basically, it’s harder for it to be taken away and used against you in a potential nocturnal wrestling match. A handgun is lightweight and compact and the short sight radius means the muzzle can easily go from the bad guy to you with minimal effort.

Handguns have their place. Many educated people can argue over their application in home defense. I recommend a compact shoulder arm over a handgun unless you live in a Porta-Potty or already own a handgun and don’t desire to own a long gun.

The old adage goes: A handgun is what you use when you’re trying to get to your long gun.

You also typically get “more gun” for the dollar with a long gun than a hand gun. A 18” Remington 870 can be hand for $400. A used Glock 17 can be had for about the same.

Willravel:

I would not recommend an autoloading shotgun for home defense to someone who is new to firearms. Autoloaders are difficult to manipulate when stressed out and clearing a jam is the last thing a home owner needs to do when confronted with a one-in-a-million home invasion scenario. A slide-action shotgun allows the user to manipulate the entire feed/fire process.

Also: don’t discount the utility of a double-barreled shotgun. A side-by-side (SxS) “stage coach” cowboy-style shotgun is a viable tool for home defense provided one practices with it. A SxS that features dual triggers is useful as it allows a properly trained user the choice to deploy one of two different types of ammunition instantly such as a less-lethal bean bag / buckshot, or a buckshot / slug combination. A slide action shotgun would require the user to cycle the next round into the chamber or use a load unsuitable for the target. It is impossible to jam a break-open shotgun as it has no feed-related moving parts. SxS coach guns are noticeably shorter than pump action guns that feature a similar barrel length. SxS guns are also extremely durable and often make better clubs than other types of long arms should such a tactic need to be employed. But what about capacity, you say? Well, if you need more than two rounds at a time… you need to move. I own a Stoeger SxS coach gun and have trained with it, I would be confident in my ability to defend myself with it during an “oh-shit” situation. Sometimes simple is better.

WTF? I didn’t just read that. Nobody outside of the military responds to the sound of weapon actuation noise by opening fire. Home defense is home defense… not home offense. You can’t open fire unless you are faced with a situation that is a direct and imminent threat to your life or the lives of your family. That means a physical confrontation and close proximity, typically under 21 feet by most experts. Responding to an unknown noise with undirected gunfire is reckless at best. This takes place in your own home, remember? Easy there, Tex.

Your philosophy here is why I would be nervous if you purchased a firearm. Discretion… it IS the better part of valor.

Cynthetiq is correct. You may want to put some money towards training at Front Site.

TwistedMosaic:

The intimidation factor of the pump action 12 gauge is very real. The simplicity of the gun is a major boon to the user in confidence and the racking noise informs any “unfriendlies” close enough to hear it that they are in serious trouble.

Jinn:

Pfft… it’s okay for Will to post whatever he wants… admins still let me post in Tilted Politics sometimes.

Markd4life:

Firearm safety rule #1: Every gun is loaded at all times.
Home defense rule #1: An empty guy is an expensive club.
Look at it this way: Your car is only dangerous if you put gasoline in it (so it can drive). A firearm is only dangerous when you put ammunition in it (so it can shoot). Consider the purpose of the two: the car is designed to drive in order to get you to your destination, the gun is designed to shoot in order to kill your target.

If you don't want to shoot somebody... go buy a baseball bat. Don't buy a gun.

Your opinions are noted. I note them as bad policy.

…

MSD is right about the ammo choice. Buckshot is for humans. Don’t use anything less than #4… I prefer 00 but 000 is popular in some circles. You can also use less-lethal ammunition such as the ball, buckshot, and beanbag loads produced by Sellier & Bellot.

As stated above… a flashlight is your primary weapon during a home defense situation. You can’t shoot at a target you can’t see. You need identify your target as a bad guy.

KirStang is correct about the threat of deadly force.

…

For the record... reading this thread makes me want to cry.

...
-----Added 16/10/2008 at 09 : 18 : 02-----
Urban legend. Rock salt shells are produced by hill billies with reloading benches and are not placed on gun shop shelves.

Professional less-lethal shotgun shells are popular with law enforcement and are easily purchased.
-----Added 16/10/2008 at 09 : 20 : 19-----
+1
-----Added 16/10/2008 at 09 : 34 : 02-----

RE: 1. Shotgun spread should not be an issue for home defense. You are aiming center mass on your target because they are close enough to represent a lethal threat to you. Tactically speaking, a shotgun does not have spread because it is not a support fire weapon such as a machine gun, which would be mounted on a tripod and waved left and right to create such an effect. Tactically, a shotgun fires a single projectile. In combat situations, a shotgun shell is designed to increase damage to a target area, not to hit multiple targets or to improve chances of hitting a target in compensation for crappy aim (especially at the ranges we're discussing in this thread on home defense). Instead of the through-and-through poke of a pistol or rifle bullet, a shotgun is like a heavy slap.

RE: 2. Why are they going to hear the gun fire more than once if they are a single intruder? Warning shots are a bad idea. Shooting at something you can't hit is a worse idea. Firing at an intruder is the absolute last resort in a home defense situation.

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Anormalguy

Crompsin, thank you for your detailed post. The overall length of my .30-.30 is very close to the overall length of a shotgun with a 18.5" barrel (regular stock, not handgrip), but I would be much more comfortable using one of my hanguns. As for having a gun taken away, yes, that is a real possibility in some scenarios, but as I tell my wife, "If somebody gets close enough to grab the pistol, you waited too long to start shooting." If you're wrestling with an intruder over your firearm, you're already in deep shit, be it a handgun or a long gun.

BTW I live in a house, not a Porta Potty.

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markd4life

"If you don't want to shoot somebody...go buy a baseball bat. Don't buy a gun."

Yes Crompsin, I guess that is the point I have been advocating. I hate to see people unfamiliar with firearms preparing for assault. Nice post, although my shotgun will remain unloaded!

Stare At The Sun

Use what you are comfortable with.

PonyPotato

I don't believe that Crompsin said that all guns should be loaded at all times.. rather, safety rule number one is that they should be TREATED as being loaded at all times. For the record, he keeps the shotgun(s) unloaded as well.

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Plan9

Winchester 94? Good gun, but I wouldn't want to use a .30-30 for home defense where I live due to the "out the window" factor.

As you tell your wife, you're not Chuck Norris... most altercations between humans are very intimate (read: close range). Unless you have a good alarm system and sleep like a ninja, you will be startled and the bad guy will be startled by the time you realize exactly where each of you are and how very close. At those ranges... hand gun or long gun... you had better be in a decent firing posture.

This is assuming the bad guy isn't smart enough to retreat and that you're not smart enough to turn on the lights in your house and and be carrying a 60+ lumen flashlight for those areas that need a little illumination.

People talk about home defense like it's some kind of game show. It's YOUR house. No rules and no video-game-action-movie hero tactical-wizard bullshit. Call the cops, get the weapon, turn on the lights, move with a purpose, and secure your family.

As you tell your wife, 1. Security, 2. Accountability, 3. Communication.

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Bill O'Rights

When I served on an EST team, we used the Remington 870.

If space, or manuverability, is a concern, get the folding stock option.

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"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

Anormalguy

I agree wholeheartedly. One factor that most people don't anticipate is fear. I don't speak from experience, but I would imagine that for most people (certainly not everyone) knowing that an intruder is in ones house would cause a racing pulse & perhaps even a feeling of near panic. Whatever ones choice of weapon, a pre-planned course of action & clear thinking are key to surviving an instrusion.

Obviously there are situations where a person could be surprised, even if they have prepared. I know folks who have handguns hidden in strategic locations, but that's not necessarily workable for those with curious children.

An irony: The guns that make us feel secure when we're at home are also one of the things that attracts burglars.

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Plan9

Dood, your pictures are more epic than Sarah Palin's stupidity. Tarp-sized.

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"You should not drink... and bake."

markd4life

You speaking for Crompson? The same guy who said an unloaded gun is an expensive club?

Dragonknight

1. By spread I mean the spread of the shot on impact with the target, may be using spray would have been clearer? Either way even at a distance of 5-10 feet your impact area will be larger then that of any pistol or rifle other then a deagle or .50 cal. The added force you’ll get from hitting some one with a shotgun vice a pistol (again other then larger rounds) will be sufficient enough to stop your target without punching through a wall. The spread or spray effect you’d get from a mounted machine gun is vastly different and for vastly different reasons… I’ll not post them here because it is completely beyond Deaconess’s question and the original reason for the post. So like I said while a shotgun will alleviate the need for marksman accuracy (because hitting a target with a projectile that measures roughly the size of a 1’ x 1’ square then the far smaller size you’d get from most anything else) it still requires some accuracy.
Scenario1. Intruder gets shot with a nine mil in the shoulder at 5-10 feet, gets hurt gets angry and since Draconis is thinking about getting this because of the increase of Armed break-ins the intruder shoots back unloading their gun most likely and the day gets worse. If Draconis misses bullet goes into wall 5-10 feet beyond target may be going through the wall maybe not.

Now change that nine mil to a .45 shooter looses arm lays and stays on ground for the rest of the day maybe bleeds out and dies, however now if Draconis misses bullet most likely punches through wall and causes damage to what ever is unlucky enough to be in its way.

Lastly change the pistol to a shotgun at 5-10 feet intruder looses arm and if paramedics are not quick intruder bleeds out, now if Draconis misses completely the extra 5-10 feet will help to turn the pellets into a peppering on his wall rather then a whole unless he’s using a far heaver grain then necessary for home defense.

2. Why would they hear a second shot….only if he completely misses because as Draconis said he is not an avid shooter. I agree warning shots are a bad idea if not a horrible one. Even with positive id, shooting at another human is not something that someone who is not in that line of business will do easily or accurately. With all of the emotions involved with waking up in the middle of the night realizing there is some one most likely armed and in your home will make most people (again not trained for these types of situations) a wreck. If you can say you will hit your target with 95% assurance in any situation you are a sniper and have no need for a shotgun or anything else for that mater as you have the skill and ability to pacify your target all alone. If the first shot doesn’t scare the shit out of them instantly putting them into flight mode or disable them the second will either do that or hopefully put them down well enough to stop any further action from them. Again Draconis said the increase is in Armed-entry so I’m working off of that.

Lastly you are completely correct in the importance of a flashlight being a very important factor in all of this, I haven’t said it and you mention it a lot. A good solid light with at high lume number (60 or more I’d say) will be a great help.

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Plan9

Psst... from one gun nut to another: Any time you mention an IMI / MRI Desert Eagle... especially with the my-firearms-experience-comes-from-video-games "deagle" vernacular... you lose all your cool points. Really, it makes me ashamed to own one.

Spray / spread is the same as far as I'm concerned for this scenario (home defense). Spread / spray / impact area is not a consideration for one defending their residence. If anything, it is a liability. I outlined the tactical usefulness of the shotgun / buckshot combination in my previous post. The advantage of the shotgun / buckshot combination is: short range, limited penetration, and devastating impact due to larger combined projectile weight and surface area. The bonus of a shotgun shell isn't the ability to have lousy aim and still cause a hit... it is the ability to cause more damage with one hit than with a single hit from another type of ammunition.

I wasn't arguing that shotgun pellets spread out over distance. Turns out that's why we nicknamed them "scatterguns." For reasoning as to your 1'x1' issue, consult my above argument.

Common sense: If you can't hit a man-sized torso at 21 feet with ANY weapon, you shouldn't own a firearm. Center mass - GO.

See, OP dude shouldn't purchase a firearm he isn't willing to train with in order to obtain a reasonable degree of confidence (aka: accuracy). Responsible ownership steps in here. I'd recommend a baseball bat and a good flashlight over a shotgun to someone who isn't responsible enough to obtain that degree of competence with a deadly weapon they intend on using in their own home.

Safety first.

...

The title of this thread annoys me and should be corrected by someone who gives a damn.

There is a distinct difference between safety and defense, especially where firearms are concerned.

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Neighn

Personally, anytime someone says they use a handgun for safety, I want to know what round. Because 9 times out of 10, they don't consider the round traveling through a wall to a loved ones room, a neighbors home or apartment, etc. There are viable handgun loads for home defense, but, in my opinion, using a shotgun over a handgun for home defense is a no brainer. Not just a preference.

The proper shotgun load has guaranteed stopping power, there's the initial intimidation factor of hearing a slide racked, and with the proper load you have a much smaller chance of injuring someone you don't want injured. IE: going through a wall or door. Plus, you get the spray from a shotgun. Shooting 00 buck will spray like having shot 9 shots of 9mm. That will stop someone, Period.

For models, I own a Mossberg 500a tactical persuader. 20 inch barrel, 7 in the magazine tube, one in the chamber. I had a pistol grip but swapped it for a Knoxx Spec Ops recoil reducing stock which I love.

Brands and models, you can easily get into a reliable and good shotgun for $400.

I recommend shooting them to find what feel best for you. But, models I'd check out a Benelli, Mossberg 500 or 590, Remington 870, or a Winchester 1300. Any of those will give you a lot of years of reliable use. Personally, I will be upgrading my Mossberg 500 sometime soon and getting a FN tactical shotgun, but those can go a bit over $400. But man are they nice.

Also, I recommend shooting the gun on a regular basis, and anyone in the home that might need to use should shoot it too. Get comfortable with your weapon, and get confident. Having a gun is one thing. Knowing that gun and having confidence in that gun is another thing.

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Slims

I thought I had already posted to this thread, but I guess not.

I have some firearms experience so this isn't purely speculation on my part:

If you are willing to take the time to learn how to use a firearm well enough (no need to become an expert) and learn the law well enough to defend yourself without unintentionally committing murder, then go ahead and get a firearm for self defense.

The idea of keeping an 'unloaded prop that looks like a gun' is a very bad one, IMHO. It can only get you in more trouble. If you aren't able to shoot someone you shouldn't point a gun (real or fake) at them, because if they call your bluff or fight because they feel trapped, you are guaranteed to end up dead.

Shotguns, of course, shoot lots of pellets with each shot fired, but at room distances you are likely looking at a pattern about the size of your fist. You don't really need to 'aim' but it is important to 'point' the weapon in the right direction.

I don't recommend practicing with no hearing protection. It will only encourage you to develop bad habits, even if you only fire a couple rounds that way. All the additional noise (especially since you will be a new shooter) will encourage you to start flinching and/or hesitating before pulling the trigger. If you find yourself in a situation where your life really is in danger, you will be so amped up the noise won't even be a factor so don't worry about it in training. Failure drills are important, but shotguns jam very rarely, and I would put most of your time into learning how to shoot and manipulate the weapon better. Most pump shotguns jam because people 'shortstroke' the pump, and learning how vigorously to stroke it (I know there's a joke there somewhere) takes practice.

I agree with Will that racking a shotgun should not be used as a means of deterring a criminal, though it is probably necessary as most people choose not to store their shotguns chambered. It is easy to chamber a round quietly simply by being less aggressive with the pump. You should rely on your voice to warn an intruder you are armed, and then only when it is appropriate.

Will: If you are breaking into a house and you hear someone rack a round into a shotgun, you are not going to have a target to 'open fire' at unless you can see them, in which case you could see their shotgun, and they could see your weapon as well.

Which firearm? A shotgun is a fantastic choice. For the average joe it is probably the best all around option and you are right to be considering one. But it doesn't need to be fancy. I strongly recommend a simple Mossberg 500 or Remington 870 without any bells or whistles. I also don't think you need a riot shotgun with the barrel shroud, extended tube, side saddle, etc. It isn't appropriate unless you plan on A: shooting bad guys until the barrel gets to hot to handle due to all your lightning quick reloads, etc. and B: taking the time to really learn how to use a shotgun. Mossberg makes a fantastic package, I forget what it is called, but for about $350 you can buy a mossberg shotgun with both an 18.5" security barrel, and a choked field barrel it gives you everything you need to defend your house (6 rounds of 12 gauge) as well as a barrel you can use for skeet or hunting. Make sure your shotgun has a buttstock (pistol grips are junk and take a LOT of practice to be any good at). Whatever you decide, remember KISS, at least until you get some experience with firearms.

Despite popular conception, 5.56, Buckshot, and most pistol rounds happily penetrate wall, after wall, after wall. If over penetration is a big issue, then use turkey rounds (or something similar), but be aware that while they will do a lot of damage to someone, most of it will be shallow, and they may not be as effective as buckshot at stopping an attack. Other options include reduced recoil tactical buckshot (it allows quick follow up shots and less penetration), or frangible slugs.

Oh, and even the biggest of pistol rounds pale in comparison to the power produced by a standard 12 Ga. Slug. I know using a Desert Eagle is cool and all (even though nobody who actually uses guns for a living will even consider one), but it is still a pistol, which shoots a much smaller round out of a shorter barrel, and is hand fired.

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stonefaceddog

The best home defense weapon is a dog. It doesn't have to be mean or aggressive. Most burglers will steer well clear of a home with any canine inhabitants.

If you can't get a dog, I would suggest a pump action shotgun Mossburg 500 or Remington 870 both are excellent choices for home defense. A semi auto shotgun may jam at the worst possible time and a double barrel might not give you the firepower you need. Learn how your gun functions, take it to the range and shoot it, learn how to take it apart and put it back together without looking at the manual. Buy some "Snap Cap" type of inert training rounds and practice loading and unloading the gun under various conditions (in the dark, after running or lifting weights to get your heart pumping and your limbs shakey). Use slugs or buckshot depending on your situation. Don't use birdshot. Always treat your gun as if it is loaded and always identify your target and make certain you have a clear line of fire.

Just my 2 cents.

Walt

Somebody once told me that anybody worth shooting once is worth shooting a dozen times.

That being said, I'd go with a plain jane Remington 870 12ga. They're like the Ak-47 of shotguns. They work 99.9% of the time and its damn near impossible to break them.

Semi-autos with pistol grips, barrel shrouds, bayonette lugs, etc are sexy. But it would be a whole lot easier to explain a little ol' hunting shotgun in court should you ever end up shooting some knucklehead.

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MSD

[quote=Crompsin;2547490]Psst... from one gun nut to another: Any time you mention an IMI / MRI Desert Eagle... especially with the my-firearms-experience-comes-from-video-games "deagle" vernacular... you lose all your cool points. Really, it makes me ashamed to own one.
It's OK, I offered to buy not just a Desert Eagle, but a Tiger Stripe .50 a few months ago.
17-21 feet per second. That's how fast the average person can run from a standing stop. That's the distance you have if you need to draw and fire on an attacker.
only 9 9s? pfft.

Kingruv

Draconis,


I may as well empty the loose change from my pockets also.
I haven’t counted it so I would ask you add it to the dollars that Crompsin and Greg have already put to your education. (those were some prime powerful refried beans Crompsin)

In short where this goes I think is the KISS principle. I have considered a side by side double coach gun in 12 gauge as has been suggested. One reason I have not done this is a single past experience from a warm summer night about 25+ years ago.
I was confronted by the prospect of 5 guys. 2 of which I had seen had handguns, one which was getting out of their car with the gun in his hand. My closest gun was my 870 with a light mounted on the action.
It was about 11:30 pm and my apartment was dark if looking from the outside. It was a single apartment over a store. Only one way in from the outside and that was up the stairs.
I had all the advantages except time. By the time I had my 870 in hand (about 10 seconds) the guy with his revolver in hand was up 5 of 25 steps. I stood on the deck and racked a #000 buck round in the chamber which got them all to quit laughing and look up. What they were able to see was the lower half of my 870 from the light shining down the barrel toward them.
The guy on the front passenger side of the car yelled first, “SHOTGUN”. The guy coming up the steps stared for what seemed like an eternity and probably lasted 2 seconds, did not stop as I had demanded, he jumped over the railing and fell, rolling as he went.
One of the others I heard yelling “it isn’t him man, it isn’t him, we got the wrong place!” All of them piling back in the car, the last one through the window as the driver tried to back out quick. I have no idea what happened on there end, but ended ok on what could have been entirely chaos.
AS in, what if I had been coming out the door when he was coming in with his revolver at waist level. I think we both would have probably fired and it is almost certain he would have been immediately dead and I would have at least been seriously gut shot.
I say I think we both probably would have, because I know if he were that close when I stepped in the door I would have fired without hesitation.
I have had other confrontations including a few in Greg’s beloved Pinelands. A few of these were simple mistakes during hunting seasons, though one was almost fatal when I was spotted because of my carelessness trying to retrieve a piece of dropped gear and thought to be a burglar. (then I was the one hearing a shell being racked)
I bring this all up to this point. I think the gun is important, but it is part of the equation that is, or should, be a known factor. So I say Greg’s point is exactly right; reduce down the variables where the gun is concerned.
A break action gun is simple but more difficult to load under stress. To reload, the gun has to be lowered and made inoperative for at least 2 to 3 times longer than a pump gun being charged. So my pick is the 870 with a light. A Surefire slide replacement is worth the investment.

Now here are my pennies and nickels.

For the gun you do buy.
1. Try before you buy if possible.
2. There are more 12 gauge loads than any other, 20’s being second.
3. I would hesitate buying a used police (or most others as well) pump unless it was checked out and warrantee was given by the seller for 90 days.
4. One of the first things I look at on a used gun and NEW gun after looking down the bore and checking the action is trying to inspect the firing pin face. I purchased a new Ruger revolver many years ago that had a chipped firing pin face. I typically go over a gun with the dealer before leaving with it so I know he can see any flaws I do in case it becomes an issue later. A bad firing pin at worst can puncture the primer giving serious eye injury among other bad results. We were both shocked that the gun could get out of the factory this way. I have never taken this for granted since. One friend of mine about 10 years later had a nasty splinter from the wrist of the stock blown into his eye on a Savage break action, 20 gauge by the same problem. This isn’t common at all, but it does happen.
5. Make sure if you only have one barrel that it is Cylinder bore. That is NO choke. Or if it is a nice one with screw in chokes that you have a cylinder bore sleeve.
6. Make sure the gun has a booklet for takedown and cleaning. If not, there are better guides available. Buy one.
7. Do buy birdshot…… and buckshot, and as Crompsin said, there are many other types of rounds available. Buy enough to test them of a large sheet of paper such as a man sized silhouette with a sheet of cardboard behind it. Test fire these at various distances from short to long. (5 to 50 feet)
8. Take a photo of your gun with emphasis on the serial number and manufacturers stamp. Record it on paper and your warranty card. Keep the pics in a safe place in the event the gun is stolen.
Before you leave the range, fire one high-power shell without hearing protection to find out what you might be hearing and realize firing inside super-intensifies that blast pressure on your eardrums. Also if safely doable, try firing at low light levels and completely dark. If you haven’t, it’s an eye-opener. If you come to confrontation in your home, you’ll likely be facing these conditions if you have to pull the trigger.

Part 2

Your dwelling.
If you’re a grad student I’m guessing you may be a renter.
This certainly changes your options if so.
Earlier I had mentioned living in an apartment over a store (built post WWII).
It was in a mixed commercial/industrial area and at night there were few people around outside that could have been hit. Your situation I know is probably very different.
1. Survey yourself. Make an assessment. Take time to survey and map out the outer environs. This is more likely to save your life or the life of others from fire than anything else so this is not a waste of time anyway. Take paper and pencil and draw out, write down what you see. Then go back and take pictures to see what you missed. Who or what is along the way? How far in distance from your door to your transport, in feet and in seconds? Learn to know who your neighbors are and who their visitors are. Get a good look without being too obvious. If they are a target for victimization it increases your risk as well. (if they are a risk, drop them a hint.) Everyone is vulnerable going and coming out of the door.
2. Surveil yourself. Go through what you learned in No. 1 and check it out like you were looking to do you in. Learn what you can at different times of day and differing conditions. What do people see when they see you coming and going. Get someone you can trust, that knows you and have them go through the motions of being you, going to and from, into and out of your place. If you have observable windows, have them go through your place with the lights on, with windows and doors in various states and conditions, opening closing windows, doors blinds, lights on and off. Don’t be too obvious. But if you get spotted explain what you are doing to your neighbor or building manager? It will reveal something else; in the case an event happens, will they likely be on your side or your adversary? What will such other watchers tell police reporting to the scene.
“Yeah, I seen him runnin around with his shotgun like some nut!” or “well, he keeps an eye out for his neighbors and is helpful.” Be that good neighbor.

See for yourself. Go through your place with unblinded eyes. It’s too easy to get blinders day by day, taking familiar things for granted. Get your helper to look and tell you what they see. Look at it all and from different angles; High, medium, low. Can you do it with the lights off at night? You need to be able to do this. Like driving down the same road day by day, you take it all in. When the headlights come on at night your focus shifts. What do you see in what little light is available? What do you see with a flashlight? What can be seen of you if you turn a flashlight on? This is equally valid concerning fires.
3. Do rooms have to be checked and cleared? Are there people in those rooms? Children? Elderly? Incapacitated?
4. If you find nothing on a first pass and someone really is inside, where could they move to?
5. One of the most vulnerable places in your house is the bathroom. On the toilet is bad enough, in the shower is worse. Can a flushing toilet be heard from outside your structure? Or running water down the drain? Water running and in the tub or stall and you can’t see or hear usually. Can you been seen via bathroom window?
6. How do lanes and alleys look as viewed down the rib?
7. How I it handling in narrow spaces? Would I want to step in this area and leave myself exposed?
8. Draw out a floor plan from overhead view and work it like a slide puzzle. Can you go from room to room without someone doubling back on you?
9. If it is evident that you are there and someone breaks in they are brazen enough or have enough pharmaceuticals in them they should be presumed extremely dangerous. For instance if you have just turned the lights off to go to your bedroom and 5 minutes later you hear glass breaking: I would assume the worst.
10. Can you, should you turn room lights on? Does it leave you exposed?
11. Lots of others things I didn’t cover.

Does this all sound paranoid? I hope so. (not clinically of course) But evaluation, assessment and review can show you weaknesses that no firearm can compensate for.
Prudence, vigilance, security and thoughtfulness along with planning and preparation can help avoid many situations to begin with. This is far better than having to make the decision of pulling the trigger on someone.

Plan9

Say what?

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

MSD

I want to second the advice that any home defense gun absolutely must have a light on it, no exceptions.
This is the only part I disagree with. Firing a shotgun without ear protection will cause permanent damage to your ears 100% of the time. If I'm going to lose my hearing I'd better be trading it for something really important.

dksuddeth

In a sense, MSD is absolutely correct. Do NOT fire that round without hearing protection at an indoor range, however, DO take that shotgun out to a hunting area or open range and fire it without hearing protection at least once. Then, take that sound that you hear and multiply it by 5 and that is what you'll be hearing if you ever have to fire that thing inside. Just be prepared.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Kingruv

Crompsin,

I was referring to this "Turns out I'm unhappy with this thread's inaccuracies and undereducated opinions.

I will come back tomorrow and unleash my gun-knowledge bowels upon you all.

Said unleashin' shall be aided by the delicious refried beans I consumed earlier."


MSD,

Only for one reason do I bring this up about firing a live round without benefit of hearing protection. It leaves the singular impression that isn't likely to be forgotten. I don't say it as a macho thing, it isn't. As a matter of sound level there are other noises which we may be exposed to that are more significant that we arent likely to expose ourselves to with hearing protection. That being said, You are correct in that there is a measure of hearing loss from excessive decibels. Of course this also accumulative as well. So with acknowledgment and apology I should have been more thorough about that.
So I will add this to it. I don't know of any indoor range that will allow shooters to come in without hearing protection in hand or go into the lanes without having them in place.
There is an added danger outdoors shooters are not likely aware of about shooting in a house or enclosed area. Indoor ranges have barriers to ricochet as would be expected and most of this also absorbs and slows blast/shock waves from the muzzles.
NOT so in your hallway or living room. Blast overpressure from a gun fired inside a house can be horrendous and not only cause some hearing loss but may easily and immediately rupture your eardrums. Blast overpressure normally should not be an issue on an open outdoor range where nothing directs the super increased air pressure back towards the shooter.
Most are not thinking clearly if awakened at 3AM and in a quiet house to go from almost silence to at least 150 decibels to 170, is a true shock to the system. Having to fire inside when you know and have had the experience and are completely awake; it certainly helps compared to not knowing. To put it like a friend said one time about firing derringer chambered in .45-70. When I asked how bad it was he said " you know how it is getting hit in the nuts by a hit baseball?" I said yes "well, just imagine getting hit by the bat instead" There is at least that much difference in firing outside and firing inside. It can be almost debilitating depending on the enclosure and gun/cartridge.
Proactively I do recommend using the hunters game ear hearing protection, but it has to be tried and tested a lot before use inside.
Normally with heavy blast/noise a muff should be worn over plugs to reduce shock which travels not just through the ear canal but also the soft tissue around the ear.

If you want to chalk up some stupidity (unadvisable doings..........) Many years ago I had bought a 10 ga. breakaction from a friend for waterfowl hunting. I had a box of 3 1/2 inch No. 4 copper clad shot full magnum shells. I went to my 25 yard clay revetement to check the pattern. The first time I fired it from the shoulder I thought " I must have been holding that wrong" I knew I hadn't but I knew that had to be it. So I reloaded it and made a mental check off of all the requisite thigs like stance, cheek/shoulder position.
So I pull the trigger again. Again, I get the royal mule snot kicked out of me.
I related this later in my own mind to a gun at the NRA museum owned by newspaperman and explorer/big game hunter, Henry Morten Stanley. I think it was a 4 bore which is nearly an inch diameter. If I recall correctly he normally used a 12 bore which is about the same size as a current 12 ga. What is noticeable about the gun is the red rubber recoil pad is mushroomed from not only repeated firing but enormous shoulder destroying recoil. I don't know how many rounds were fired from this gun but I would have to guess more than a few. So I have done things I shouldn't advise others to do even if there was a purpose to it.

Slims

Ok, here's why I don't recommend firing a weapon without hearing protection.

First, I don't think there is any appreciable benefit to be derived. New shooters develop bad habits frighteningly quickly. To explain, consider two people who are sparring. If one accidentally hauls of and hits his partner in the nuts, that partner is likely to instinctively flinch and protect his jewls in future encounters, even if the blows being delivered are light and appropriately placed for a friendly bout. The 'unpleasantness' only needs to happen once for you to develop an instinctive (and in the case of firearms, negative) reaction. The fact that he is a new shooter and won't have established good habits to help compensate only makes the matter worse.

Also, there are many accounts by police officer following shootings where they mention not even noticing the noise of their firearms being discharged.

When your body is flooded with adrenaline, you won't be botherd by the gunshots, but you will be when you are relaxed and just learning how to shoot.

Edit: "Blast Pressure" in your house won't rupture your eardrums. Not unless you decide to hold the muzzle right next to your ear. I have shot rifles, pistols, and shotguns in rooms after having neglected to put my hearing pro in and I didn't blow any eardrums, nor was the sound debilitating. Flashbangs are far louder, and I have had a couple of those go off after forgetting to put my earplugs back in, and still no ruptured eardrums.

You don't need to do anything fancy, or worry about becoming some sort of gun wielding ninja in order to effectively use a firearm for home defense. As I mentioned earlier, everything but a simple firearm is extra. My main defense weapon is a pistol because I can get to it very quickly and because I am a big KISS fan. It doesn't have a flashlight, nor any extra frills. But I also leave a nightlight on at the end of my hallway so I can see well enough not to need one. I have a rifle with a flashlight, but I dont' plan on needing it as I don't plan on clearing my house everytime I hear a bump.

There are thousands of different ideas on what is *best* for home defense, what techniques should be employed, etc. However, most experts agree that the average person should focus on simplicity: Use any gun of reasonable caliber and reliability which you can comfortably shoot, and don't go clearing your house unless you absolutely have to; far better to lock down the room you are in and call police. If the bad guy is really intent on hurting you, he will have to come through your bedroom door, which makes the situation absolutely cut and dry, as well as gives you all the advantages.

I don't worry about getting shot while in the shower, it would really suck, but security and ease of living are often at odds and I just have no desire to be the guy who showers with a pistol. If you are being stalked by a bad guy who positions himself to hear your shower running, then you are probably going to have a really bad day...because it would be far easier for him to shoot you when you are walking to your car, leaving work, etc. Most homeowners are concerned with random acts of violence moreso than deliberate premeditated assasination attempts with no forewarning. If the latter is something you are really concerned about, then you should probably spend a couple hours a day digging out the shelter...

__________________
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

telekinetic

What was the reason for firing with no hearing protection again? It's lost in the books up there and I couldn't tease it out. My .02: Any self defense story I've ever read with shots fired in anger, if it mentions the sound at all, it mentions how strange it was that the shooter didn't even 'hear' the reports.

__________________
twisted no more

Zodijackyl

I don't agree with it, but it is to understand and be prepared for the sound of a shotgun being fired indoors. I know that it is extraordinarily loud, and it will certainly damage hearing, which is why I see a negligible benefit.
A friend who works as an armed security guards mentioned that some security guards would practice a few shots from a pistol without hearing protection so they would be prepared for the situation and not be distracted by the gunshot should a situation arise, but I am still wary of any gain that involves hearing loss.

telekinetic

I'm sure the massive adrenaline dump you'll be experiencing if you ever fire in anger will more than compensate for any brief startlement.

__________________
twisted no more

anubis_82

Remington 870 is a good shooting and inexpensive way of home defense. You can get one with two barrels for less the 400. They are simple, and you can get them in either a 12, or 20 gauge. They are not the best at any one thing but you can rest assure that they will always accurately go bang. As far are the sound of a pump action shotgun racking, it ranks second most feared should to a bugler only to be beaten buy a large barking dog. Personally, I arm my home with a standard Remington 870 express in a 20 gauge.

Plan9

20 gauge is fine for home defense, but a properly loaded 12 gauge will have the same handling characteristics and be significantly more common and thus versatile.

Starting with a 20 gauge is like buying a BB gun before buying a .22 LR. Just buy the .22... you can use it for the rest of your life and not feel the need to replace it.

...

The whole "slide rack" or "don't rack" philosophy conflict is totally based on your defensive philosophy and I feel like either answer is correct as long as it is applied in the right context.

Seems like a weapon-specific issue. The shotgun is unique to this situation in that you can't really make a scary noise with a revolver or autopistol and "home defense" long arms other than shotguns (carbines) aren't exactly scary either (the bolt release of an AR isn't widely known outside the military and gun nuts). The fact that the gun is making a stereotypical movie/video game loading noise means that the gun was out of battery in the first place or is needlessly cycling a round into the chamber and out of the gun.

Babbling: I suppose cycling the action on an AK47 would be pretty noisy and scary, but I wouldn't use an AK47 for "home defense" unless Cuban paratroopers had landed outside my high school or those multi-tongue'd worm things from Tremors decided to eat my SUV with the "UZI 4 YOU" vanity plate. Using a pistol caliber carbine such as the Marlin Camp 45 or a Kel-Tec Sub2000 in .40 S&W would be a good choice for home defense, but you wouldn't try to work the action on either of them to scare somebody... they're the equiv of a cop trying to pull somebody over using a bicycle bell.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

ramone

An HD shotgun should be stored "Cruiser Ready"- full tube, empty chamber, action closed, and hammer dropped. A shotgun is not 'drop safe'.

Due to the widely varied selection of ammo available, and the larger forces involved in operating the action, semi- auto shotguns are not as reliable as pumps, generally.

3 rounds of #4 Buck, followed by 2 rounds of slugs is my HD load out. If three loads of #4 won't stop him, they'll slow him enough for me to choose my backstop a bit more carefully.

Slims

I used to think that it was 'best' to store my shotgun with more than one type of round in the tube. But over time I came to the conclusion that a single loadout was best for consistency. I keep slugs available on the gun which can be very quickly loaded in the unlikely event they are necessary (shooting through a car is about the only use I can think of).

I agree with everything else Ramone said though.

__________________
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence