Plan9

Righteous: That would be a given. Works pretty damn good for the first line of offense as well, or so I've seen while leveling an M2 machine gun at many a speeding car outside Ghazni.

SWAT-GO-GO-GO: Perhaps the militarization of police organizations in the US has lead to a storm trooper mentality: anybody toting a gun that isn't in our uniform is an enemy regardless of their behavior. There is a huge rift in feelings and communication between the patrol cop and Joe Citizen. A lot of animosity from everybody... litigation-happy whitebreads to rightfully-worried minority groups.

Space Invaders: After serving in the military, I can understand why police officers would prefer not to have civilians carrying guns. Threat identification. In their perfect world only two parties should ever have weapons: good guys and bad guys... so they can associate anybody outside the blue polyester packing a roscoe as a criminal, making it easier to dump all 15 rounds out of their Glock model 22 into some kid with a orange-tipped plastic Uzi.

Math: And just maybe logic dictates that most cops would prefer less people have firearms... it would mean they encounter less firearms in general.

Ignorant blanket statement: Police organizations are not concerned with your right to bear arms or your right to self defense. Not something in their mission statement. They've got plenty else on their plate.

The badge is a symbol of authority. A firearm is authority. Perhaps some in law enforcement would prefer to maintain all the authority in every situation they encounter. Control freaks.

What was it that Mao guy said about the barrel of a gun?

/ramble crap-ola

Open carry is for cowboys.

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Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Tully Mars

I don't know anything about leveling machine guns at cars and I had to look up Ghazni (think the spelling threw me.) But I have been in some pretty hostile situations and I've found talking and patients to be very effective tools. When I first started, right out of the Navy basically, my partner/teacher was a Nam Marine vet known as "Sarge" to his friends. He was 6'2" 210lbs and some 8th degree, god knows what, dojo master. The first thing he taught me was if it never goes past conversation everyone goes home (or to jail) uninjured. That and we were paid by the hour. Before he retired I watch him many times spend countless hours talking people into damn near putting the handcuffs on themselves. Of course I also watched him lay several large men out in less then 30sec too. But his preferred method was always calm conversation.



Perhaps? I don't think there's any perhaps about it. The LE profession gives people power and authority. IMHO, all too often power hungry people seek out these positions. And all too often they're hired.

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dksuddeth

Yipee Ki yay motherf**ker

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Plan9

Oh, I getcha, bro. I've only come to my conclusion through experience using both carry methods and dealing with the trials and bullshitlations with both.

No Duh: A lot of factors dictate what kind of weapon and carry method one wants to use: Gender, body type, age, occupation, training preference, favorite TV show as a kid, etc. Plethora of others.

Wild 'n Free: Open carry doesn't feature many of the numerous physical restrictions that concealed carry does. See, I used to open / concealed carry a H&K USP 45. I shoot like an action movie hero with that piece, but concealing a full-size automatic on my body type is a chore in anything less than a winter coat. I'm tall and skinny and a handgun the size of a small railroad car just doesn't disappear when I stuff it behind my kidney in a pair of Levi's. Hell, the spare mags are bigger than my cell phone.

Stop That Guy: When I chose open carry with a "cop gun" (boys in blue use H&K around here), I got a lot of stares and harassed by everybody from random people on the street to managers at Wal-Mart. I'd explain to them that it was perfectly legal and that it would also be perfectly legal for me to hide it under a coat due to my little piece of gummint paper, but the "OH-NOES-GUN-SO-SCARY" thing just never went away. Totally irrational fear. So... turns out I got really tired of making myself a instant domestic terrorist whenever I got out of my vehicle in town somewhere.

Crompy Got A Gun: Open carry, for the most part (on the east coast, IMO), is no different than brandishing as far as cops and gun-phobic civvies are concerned. It's wearing a symbol of power that few in society are accepted to tote: military, cops, Effa-Bee-Eye, etc. They don't get it when Joe Average does it. They watch too much TeeVee and assume too much about the purpose and scope of law enforcement (especially when it comes to their personal protection).

Screw Open Carry: After seeing how practicing my perfectly legal right to open carry was going to send me to jail or worse due to public perception, I gave it up. I only do concealed carry these days. I use the excellent 5.11 "UnderArmor" style holster shirt and pack a S&W J-frame with some Federal Hydra-Shok. .38 Special isn't a "man-stopper" or a "one-hit-drop" or whatever, but the gun is light and concealable, can be fired inside a pants pocket or bag multiple times (revolver cylinders don't jam). The holster shirt hides the gun and the gun and ammo I use are a time-tested concealed carry combo that'll do the job it needs to do: neutralize a threat should I need to protect my life.

Any of that make sense to anybody?

*heads off to school to be educated about the real world*

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Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

KirStang

Makes perfect sense.

dksuddeth

crompy, what state on the east coast do you live in? depending on the state, your views can make sense or not.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

PonyPotato

We live in VA.

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dksuddeth

I know lots of people in virginia that practice open carry. it's been tough but it's getting alot better over there. Are you in towards the DC area? That would be understandable about not doing open carry much there, but it is getting better.

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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

PonyPotato

Yes, we're within an hour of DC. Less from where we work/go to school (same town - we carpool!). It's just not a good idea around here, it seems.

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"Without passion man is a mere latent force and possibility, like the flint which awaits the shock of the iron before it can give forth its spark."
— Henri-Frédéric Amiel

Dragonknight

"Travis White, 19, who has ear and chin piercings, congratulated Brandon Trask, 21, on carrying openly for the first time that night. "Just wait until you get confronted by a cop," White said. "It'll make you feel brave."

This statement was in the first article that Cynthetiq posted and it turns me off of to open carry. No one, no matter how honorable their intentions are should have the need to feel brave when carrying a weapon, be it open or concealed. Carrying a gun should never make you feel brave, may be more secure in your self but brave is not a choice I would use. I just can't get the picture of some punk kid standing tall and "bravely" up to some one telling themselves "I'll do it, I'll shoot that guy." It just rubs me all wrong.

I am not against carrying a side arm it’s just the image that gave me is wrong. People need to realize the very real positive and negative affects this will have though. Yes you now have grater potential to protect your loved ones as well as yourself, but like some of the others said, you as the one who is openly carrying a gun put your self and your family at a greater risk. You make yourself target number 1 in the eyes of anyone willing to rob you still. This isn't the movies where the good guy always moves that one second faster then the bad guy and wins the shoot out. If some one is robbing you and see's your hand move one inch closer to the gun, there is a very real chance that you are dead and your screaming loved ones are next.

Also take into consideration an open shoot out where there are a couple people openly carrying. Some random looser goes and starts shooting for what ever self-righteous reason (may be they are protesting the open carry group that is a the pizza joint), now you 15 people shooting back at one guy, where not all of them are thinking about collateral damage.

I admit I prefer concealed carries because they don't put in the face of everyone around them that I am carrying a gun and I have the option to use it but not on will think I have the need to use it. Then again this is all just IMO and how I see it.

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Freedom is NOT Free.

Tully Mars

I think I get what you're saying here and I agree. Carrying around a gun openly changes the dynamic of situations. Almost like having a TV camera present. People simply start acting differently.

Wonder how many people here that favor open carry have ever been in a situation where having a gun would be a benefit? I carried a gun for years, almost felt naked when I stopped. Simply not an option here in Mexico. Anyway in nearly 20 yrs, in a job that lead to daily confrontations, I never fired a shot at anything other then qualifying targets. Well and wild game, but don't think open carry during hunting season 50 miles from the nearest house apply to this conversation.

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The_Dunedan

At least three occasions here: One attempted break-in (burglar scared off by large dog), One attempted assault (five drunken idiots scared off by large shotgun), and a drunken moron trespassing after dark on gun-shop property. The last was the only time I've ever drawn my sidearm.

Tully Mars

These all happened at your home or business? I've had moron drunken hunters show up on my property, own several acres with a resident elk heard. Apparently alcohol turns "No trespassing" sign's into "please hunt here." So, I can understand. But of these incidents you name how many would have been, or were, an open carry situation?

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The_Dunedan

Only the last, the trespasser. Our shop/farm is in the middle of nowhere, and I actually live above the shop. Someone who comes wandering up to a gunshop at 10pm reeking of tequila is either getting ready to rob you or is REALLY stupid. This one, thankfully, turned out to be the latter. I was walking around the property, carrying my weapon in the open: when I returned to the shop after checking fences this idiot (whom I'd never seen before) came out from behind the shop at a trot. Bear in mind this is at 10pm. After I impressed upon him the idiocy of what he'd done, I asked why he'd come in the first place.

"Aah jest wanned t'shee if you'uns wuz opun!"

Yeah, right, see if we're open at 10 o'clock at night.

I saw him off down the driveway on his lawnmower. Yes, lawnmower. Like most of the PWT around here, he's lost his license after being caught driving drunk/stoned/tweaking too many times, and so he gets around on a lawnmower.

Tully Mars

Not exactly my understanding of the open carry argument if it happens on your own property. But I appreciate your reply.

If you include events on your own property I've chased people off with a shotgun. Large bull elk in season on the North Oregon coast make people do strange things. I lived on a dead end private gravel road with four lots, five acres each and a resident elk herd. All the lots were on the south side of the road and there was a deep ditch (4ft?) on the north side of the road. For four years my house was the only one on the road. On opening day the second year I parked my truck in the middle of the road with a sheet of plywood leaning against it that read "No Hunting, Private Property." I parked so there was no way around it, or so I thought. At about 4am I woke to the sound of a diesel engine, I thought he turned around and left. Nope! Drove through my front yard over my roses, knocking over a lighthouse ornament and crushing a line of yard lights. I met him on his way out with a shotgun and my badge clipped to my belt. He decided to pay for the damages and never return in exchange for me not charging him with criminal trespass. Turns out he was the local head of the school board. That and an idiot.

The next summer on opening morning of bow season I woke up, poured myself a cup of coffee and walked out on my deck wearing only my briefs. I found two guys in full camo using my hot tub to steady their spotting scope. That conversation went something like "you live here?" "No, I was wandering around out here in my underwear and decided to rob this house, only thing of value I was able to find was this cup of coffee. Any more dumb ass questions before you leave?"

After the other lots had homes built that stuff all but stopped.

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The_Dunedan

Don't even get me started on poachers. We've had them drive ATVs onto our property, cutting down fences as they go! And most of the time these asshats are intoxicated besides, so they frequently wound animals without killing, or at least properly. And ever year they dump deer carcasses, intact but for the backstraps, in our woods to attract coyotes. I think I'd just have to eviscerate someone if I found them camped out on -my- deck, shooting at -my- deer on -my- land!

jorgelito

Are the gun control laws in Mexico more relaxed? Do you need any sort of permit or can you just bring in your guns?
-----Added 19/9/2008 at 12 : 05 : 10-----
Oh man, sounds like a nightmare. I can't believe people would be so disrespectful of private property like that. Can the police not do anything about it?
-----Added 19/9/2008 at 12 : 06 : 40-----
What the hell man? What's wrong with these people? It sounds like quite the hassle trying to protect your own property. Is it fenced? Have you considered dogs maybe? Oh man, I want to have property like that someday but if it's that much of a hassle, then I don't know if it's worth it.

__________________
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to the one that endures to the end."

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- My recruiter

Tully Mars

Owning a personal gun in Mexico is near impossible. Done state by state. Can't even apply for a permit here.

Bull elk create a thing we call "bull fever" people will do almost anything to "get" their elk. I have a bullet hole in my house to prove it.

Yes, I own dogs, pretty much alway have. Problem with dogs and hunters is the dogs are not good for their "hunt" and the dogs aren't good at shooting back. And yes they'd would shoot your dog if it meant them getting their elk.

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Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Plan9

Yeah, it irked me too but I left it alone because it's pretty obvious that anybody with extensive facial jewelry who wants to open carry is a showboating dumbass destined for the Darwin Awards. Really hard to respect someone who turns their face into a junkyard... and really hard to not target someone who turns their face into a junkyard AND has a Glock on their hip in a as-close-to-brandishing-without-doing-it manner.


See, I don't like open carry because it negates the surprise factor in favor of the deterrence factor... which is always significantly less due to social norms about weapons these days. People fear guns. Even "good" (stupid) people.

I disagree with your 15-people-snowball-shootout point. I've served in the military for a few minutes in the sand... had rockets, mortars, and 7.62 rounds fly at me... and the first thing I think about is taking cover and getting out of said location, not shooting back at a target that is most likely in a fortified position and / or moving out in a heartbeat.

Gun or no gun on their hip... I'd reckon that most reasonable people who hear gun shots would do the natural thing: get the hell outta Dodge.

It's one thing to draw your gun for yourself. It's a whole 'nuther to draw it for someone else.

I don't draw my civilian weapons for strangers. It's not worth my life.

...

Perhaps concealed carry is like a bizarre game of life-or-death tag where you try to one-up the other guy with a bigger weapon right before he tags you with his own.

Reminds me of that one Yosemite Sam vs. Bugs Bunny cartoon I saw so long ago.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

uncle phil

like the man said: "open carry is for cowboys..."

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you both get dirty;
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ziadel

Are you referring to me as a Cowboy?

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KirStang

Neighn

I don't know how I feel about this... I can't really see anything positive coming from it. I'm a gun owner and just purchased my first handgun. When I hike and camp, I will most definitely open carry but that's it.

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cadre

I've already given my opinion on this in a different thread but I'll chime in anyways. I also live in Az where it's legal to open carry with no permit. I used to open carry my dad's pistol when I was on my way to shoot. When my parents moved though, they took their guns and I haven't purchased my own yet. I'll probably buy a 9mm pretty soon and I'll open carry that in many situations. As a woman it's hard to stuff something in my pants without people noticing. Also, when riding my bike it's just easier to have the pistol on my hip in case I get pulled over or something. I carry as a self preservation thing, being a woman who has been attacked will make you a bit paranoid.

There are a lot of arguments on both sides of the open carry debate. My opinion is that the "surprise" factor or concealed carry doesn't function to ward of criminals because not nearly enough people carry. Open carry is obvious, it says "I have a gun, don't fuck with me" and some people (myself included) like that. Then there's the whole "it's my right" argument and I dunno how much I believe that. Some cops do freak out when you tell them you have a gun, which is hilarious to me because if I was a criminal why would I disclose a weapon? I can understand people being paranoid about guns but I think people who aren't used to being around them have a much more negative view of guns than they should.

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My life is one of those 'you had to be there' jokes.

Makedde

I don't think I would 'open carry'. What if someone got the wrong idea? What if you walked into a bank, gun visible, and the bank teller thought you were going to rob the joint? I'd hide it, displaying it makes it easier for people to see you are armed, and I would be concerned that someone may make a grab for it.

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cadre

Well, clearly there are many environments that you wouldn't want to open carry in but I don't think that someone seeing you're armed is always a bad thing. And far as people grabbing for it goes, chances are slim that anyone would risk it, but that's what training is for.

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My life is one of those 'you had to be there' jokes.

thunder

My Baby Eagle is just like an American Express Card,I don't leave home with out it. Having a consealed carry permit just clears up some of the gray areas.

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Plan9

Aaah, ignorance is bliss.

Check it out: Concealed carry rules as described by state law dictate locations where, what, when / how you can and cannot carry your weapon. A concealed carry license is not a do-it-all gun card. Not even close. You cannot carry a firearm in banks, schools, government offices, and establishments that serve alcohol in a sit-down-to-drink fashion (bars), concealed carry or otherwise (open carry).

So... as to your worry... you don't have to stress about taking it into a bank: it is illegal to do so.

Common sense also helps... which is what a issuing and using a concealed weapon license is all about.

...

Which makes me feel like we should regulate people instead of inanimate objects.

Guns don't make bad decisions.

...

I heartily endorse anybody who is interested to take the concealed carry course that may be offered in their state. I'd recommend it even if you have no desire to own a firearm or use one for personal protection outside your house.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

dksuddeth

This is not correct. You CAN carry in a bank. It is a private institution, not a government one. If the bank has no policy or problem with a person carrying, you may do so. Some states also have no law that prevents anyone from carrying a weapon in a drinking establishment, your own state is one of them. The only limitation to carrying in a restaraunt in Virginia is that you MUST carry it openly. There are no concealed weapons allowed in a restaraunt that serves alcohol.

One should not have to dictate personal behavior that doesn't directly affect others simply because a person FEELS scared around guns. We don't do it for people that are afraid of blacks or hispanics, do we?

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Tully Mars

You think people who fear guns are equal to xenophobias?

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dksuddeth

ummm, no. I think people who fear guns have irrational and illogical fears that may denote something else is wrong with their psyche.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Tully Mars

It's seem odd to me you'd use a racial analogy as an example for fear of guns.
I guess the problem I'm having is we have societal norms and community norms. If I were walking in rural Oregon along a hiking trail I'd think nothing of seeing someone carrying a side arm. If I were at a concert in downtown Portland Oregon seeing someone with a side arm would give me pause. Seeing a person of another race in either situation wouldn't cause me a second thought.

I'm also not so sure people fear guns. I think some people fear people with guns.

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Willravel

Aren't political discussions about guns supposed to be in politics?

Tully Mars

I think this could go either way. It's kind of a cross over discussion, of sorts. I see no reason to move it now.

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Willravel

I wasn't really asking to move it, it just seems like it was starting to jump into a more political/social discussion.

Tully Mars

I understand where you're coming from. I didn't think you were asking for it to be moved. Some discussions are more fluid then others. There's every possibility if this were in politics someone would ask why it's not in weaponry.

I was just letting you know why after two pages of discussion I was just leaving it alone and letting the conversation continue.

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dlish

tully..

did the guns deter you from doing your job? ie. issuing tickets? what was your reasoning for not issuing tickets?

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Tully Mars

No the guns didn't deter me, just got my attention. I worked in a very rural area. Most of the time I simply asked if the weapon was loaded. If the person told me no I left it at that. Now if I pulled someone over and asked them about the weapon and they respond with 'Why the fuck did you pull me over? I pay your fucking wages and my gun is none of your fucking business." That person's getting a ticket for every infraction I can nail them for and could end up in custody if they do something completely stupid.

I didn't issue tickets because for the most part people were driving on empty roads and not driving in a dangerous fashion. Somewhere along the line tickets went from being a safety issue to a revenue source. That general philosophy seems misplaced to me. Giving someone a $200 ticket for going 11 miles over the speed limit on a empty country road is simply an attempt to increase funding not improve traffic safety, IMO. Giving people a ticket who roll through a stop sign at 4am in the middle of no where, after clearly looking both ways, falls in that category too. It I could see they didn't even look for traffic I might well write them up or at least stop and warn. Face it most people drive 10-15 miles over. Most people roll trough the stop sign at their corner if they work at 4am. To me it seemed like a tax on people being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

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dksuddeth

My use of a racial analogy is spot in, IMO. A gun is an inanimate object that doesn't do anything unless a person acts with it. A person is a person be they black, white, red, or yellow and only that particular person (no matter the color) dictates how people treat them simply by their own actions and demeanor. Nothing more, Nothing less.

To better answer your own questions, please explain why in the hiking trail scenario, a person wearing a sidearm means nothing but the same person, wearing the same sidearm, doing nothing more than standing and listening to music gives you pause?

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Tully Mars

Simply because one looks out of place to me and one doesn't. If I went to a auto shop and saw someone carrying a crow bar I wouldn't think of it. Same guy walking down the street with the crow bar would make me pause.

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