510cut

Well I think it's about time I upgraded from my XP 2100+. So I'm looking at building another comp, although the price turns me off. I think its going to cost upwards of 1200 dollars. Anyhow I would like to keep the comp I build under a 1000 the lesser the better haha. Do you guys forsee any drops in the price of memory or AMD 939 Chips (I've read that they are suppose to drop in the next few weeks).

I plan on overclocking although I'm not experianced at all, but I've been reading some boards and plan on having my friends who are experianced help me. Pretty much the most heavy duty thing I'll be doing is gaming on this. Along with the usual college student stuff. I would like this comp to last me a while.

Anyhow so far I'm thinking of this.

AMD 64 (939) 3200 or 3500 cpu
Well right now I'm trying to decide between a 3200 or a 3500. I would like to get a 3500 just cause it's fasters, but I would like to save wherever I can. It seems the 3200 is the best compromise between performance and price. About a $50 dollar difference between the two.

MSI K8N Neo2 Platinum
This board seems to be one of the more popular ones and very good for overclocking. I was thinking about maybe getting a SLI board, but I don't want to fork up for two vid cards, and the extra cost of getting the board.

Mushkin Dual Pack 184-Pin 1GB(512MBx2) DDR PC-3200
Cas Latency: 2.5-3-3
After reading the thread comparing valueRam and high-priced ram on anandtech it seems the performance difference between the expensive 200+ ram compared to say this ram found at newegg for 140 isnt that great. So I thought I'd skimp and just get this. Does anyone know when ram will go down? Or have suggestions for better/cheaper valueRam, a lot of people seem to like the Crucial valueRam too.

Harddrive- I'm somewhat undecided on what to get, I'm pretty sure its going to be a SATA drive. I don't use that much HD space so I think 200gb would be plenty. Maybe get the 36 gig raptor then a 120 gig drive? If I raid0 it would I still be able to partition? Or would it make it one big drive? Any suggestions on HD? haha

Video Card- I'm undecided on the 6600gt or 6800. I think after overclocking the 6800 it would be pretty nice. Although I might splurge and get a 6800GT. I've read that the 6800 series is a much nicer card and that the 50 dollar difference between the 6600GT and the 6800 NU is totally worth it.

Sound Card- hmm I might splurge on an Audigy card, or use my current SB Live, or even onboard sound.

Case/PS- I like how the Lian Li's look. Although I know I shouldn't be spending so much. Does anyone know the difference between the PC-60 and PC-61 besides the color? Also I think I'm going to pry the PS out of my current comp, I think its a decent Antec PS, although I'm not sure if I'll be able to connect the SATA drives to it, my current comp is like 3 years old.

ACk Pretty long post... getting late. Anyhow what do you guys suggest I get? Should I wait a little while longer?
[edit] by the way I'll put up prices I've found for each and such tomorrow.

sashime76

Before you spend the money, do you need to "upgrade"? Sounds like you are building another system rather than an upgrading. It also sounds like you are building a gaming system rather than something for school work or just ripping music or movies.? The fact/truth with gaming, you can never keep up with the latest games. Perhaps for a year or a little more.

The specs look pretty good but remember AMD 64 is quite finicky with the surrounding hardware. Overclocking isn't all that difficult nowadays. You don't need to flip switches like used to.

Anyway, have fun with the new PC.

john_713

AMD 64 (939) 3200 or 3500 cpu
Probably go for the 3200 for now. You can always upgrade to something alot faster later on. I have a 3200 and find it more than adequate, overclocks pretty well too.

MSI K8N Neo2 Platinum
You don't have to get two cards now, one of the selling points for SLI is it allows you to purchase another card next year which will keep you up with the latest games. This new card will also be quite cheap as it will be essentially a year old.
Also do you want PCI-E compatability?
I have head alot of good things about this board though.

Mushkin Dual Pack 184-Pin 1GB(512MBx2) DDR PC-3200
Cas Latency: 2.5-3-3
This ram will be fine, you're unlikely to notice much difference between 2-2-2 and 2.5-3-3 in real world terms, unless you are really bothered about benchmarking. Have yo read the compatability articles about ram in socket 939 systems though?

Harddrive- If you want a raptor why not get a 74gb one? They are slightly faster and quiter than the older 36gb, the difference is not just the size. I have heard reviews which show the raptor isnt that much faster than new hitachi drives, is it really worth the cost?

Formatting the drive.... for 80gb i usually do 10-20 gb partition for the OS 30-40 Games etc and the rest for downloads and general stuff. Obviously with a 200gb drive these values can be expanded, 20gb is more than enough for xp though 15gb is sufficient.

Video Card- Can't really comment here although if you do go down the SLI route Nvidia will be the better bet. gts are meant to overclock like beasts though!

Sound Card- Do you take your music seriously? If so ignor onboard sound, i find it terrible, it crackles and is nowhere near the quality of my 4 yr old soundblaster live! If you have any audigy this will be fine. A new audigy 2 can always be bought at a later date if you want EAX effects.

Case/PS- Again can't rele comment but SATA drives are the same size as IDE so they will fit and 3.5" drive bay.

Yes you could wait even longer until dual core A64s come out but that can be said with any hardware, it's always changing and you will never be able to keep up with it. My advice splash out now, you'll never be satisfied fully, but you can be for just a while! Hope that helps

cyrnel

If the price turns you off, build smart. Don't get caught up buying someone else's dream parts. Consider what each piece does for you over what you already have. Where are your bottlenecks? Can you use the old components or are you trading/selling...?

We all know gaming is by far the most intensive task for most systems. If that's important, the video card is the most important factor. What do you have now? You might get all the performance you want just upgrading here. The 6600GT and 6800's are impressive.

If the processor is still lacking, use an overclocked 35W XP mobile processor. The 2200 and 2400's are both good candidates (~$80). They clock up to an actual 2500MHz and keep up with 64bit 3200 chips for 32bit tasks. If your motherboard can't handle it, good units are under $100 with dual channel, 133, 400FSB, etc.

I have two old $50 motherboards (one biostar one gigabyte) with XP mobile processors that bench and game faster than my much more expensive DFI based AMD 64 3000 box (bench faster cpu, slightly slower RAM, faster disk). Same video card (6800 OC) same RAM. Even if the 64 were faster it's so close it isn't worth the extra money if I weren't experimenting with 64bit *nix. You won't notice anything 10-15% away in performance so use the money where it counts to get the most gains.

A side-benefit of picking carefully is you can afford to upgrade twice as often, which also translates to better system and component familiarity, which then helps you make these choices.

Not knowing your plans/prejudices/interests I just thought I'd throw out another perspective.

510cut

Well I dont exactly need to upgrade or do anything I mean my computer now does everything I want. It's just I wanna play like CS:S and all those new games. Plus my sisters computer isn't that great so I would just be passing my current one down to her.

I didn't really know the 64's were finicky, but I've pretty much chosen like the more common parts I see people using sooo hopefully that wont be a prob.

Yea I think I'm just going to stick with AGP, even though I wouldn't mind having PCI-e I don't want to pay like 70-100 more for the motherboard.

Have you heard anything about the Geil value ram? I haven't read anything about compatability issues with ram and 939 systems. But the author of the thread suggested that ram when asked.

Harddrive- well pretty much I don't wanna pay for the cost of the 74gb Raptor yea I heard it performs better but it costs a lot. Do you have any other suggestions for harddrives? Maxtor? How are the 16mb cache ones?

Thanks for the advice guys

john_713

No sorry no Geil here, I haven't heard any complaints though.

Harddrives, do you need it to be extremely quiet? I have samsung and seagate SATA drives, the samsung is silent (well as good as) but the seagate grinds loudly when it's being accessed. Both are silent when idle though.

Noise probably won't matter if you are using air cooling as most fans will drown out any hard drive activity, but just a thought. TBH i dont think it would really matter there isn't alot in it speedwise.

SiN

I would avoid Maxtor, as they have a reputation of dying in <5 years.

I had 2 die on me last year, and they were around that age.

beyond that, I have only used IDE drives, so I can't recommend SATA.

brandwise though, WD has a decent reputation. Samsung are good, I just got a spinpoint today <3

and ... I used to be into partitioning ... but I'm keeping my 160 unpartitioned, mainly because data moving is quicker, as it's not really moving the data.

__________________

Lasereth

1. I wouldn't overclock. I have a lot of experience with it, and I've came to the conclusion that OC'ing is only gonna work if your parts are feeling up to the task. I bought an Athlon XP 2500+ and Corsair XMS 2 2 2 6 PC3200 RAM. I also have the Abit NF7-S motherboard. In other words, three of the most known components for overclocking together. What could go wrong? Let's see, how about it not overclocking? That'll definitely put you down in spirit. My CPU wouldn't go past 190 FSB without being unstable, even with adequate cooling on my CPU and northbridge chipset.

OC'ing is a risk -- not just of cooking your parts, but of it working at all. I spent all that money just for OC'ing and it simply didn't work. I could have saved a hundred dollars or more with parts that would perform just as well.

It's your decision, but don't expect it to work just because you bought parts known for their OC'ing ability.

I'd buy the 3200+ Athlon 64 if you're on somewhat of a budget. The 3500+ is nice, but the extra $50 can go towards what really matters with today's games...a good videocard.

I'd buy the 6800 GT without hesitating. I've had GREAT experiences overclocking mine. It's currently running way past Ultra speeds with no artifacts. I bought mine for $450 and would do it again. You can get them for less than $400 now...it's a sin not to buy one with a new system. They're more powerful than you can imagine. It really does make a GeForce FX 5900 Ultra or a Radeon 9800 XT look like crap.

RAM? Just buy Corsair, Mushkin, or Geil Value RAM. 1 GB of PC3200 is what I'd recommend, even though 768 MB does great. Make sure to get over 512 MB at least. If you're gonna OC, this is where you're gonna spend a ton of money buying the "good shit." I still say it's not worth it.

Motherboard? I haven't heard of any 939 motherboards that stand out. Just find one you want with the features you expect.

I'd buy a Lian-Li case if you have the money for it. Those things look like they were crafted by God or Jesus. Moses or Noah at the very least.

If you have any more questions feel free to ask!

-Lasereth

__________________
"A Darwinian attacks his theory, seeking to find flaws. An ID believer defends his theory, seeking to conceal flaws." -Roger Ebert

cyrnel

Lasereth, don't let a bad experience poison you to overclocking. Those Mobile's are the most trouble-free OC'ers since the first Celerons. Recent 64's look good too. Some combo's won't work, and a single marginal component will torpedo the project. It happens to everyone. Return the part, keep going. It comes down to staying within reasonable limits for each part and leaving a safety margin. Pick the best recipe of tested components, stay simple, and move forward.

/pep-talk

Rawb

Again, I am going to back Lazereth up on this one and recommend that you go with what he said.

I'm also not a fan of overclocking your system (your video card however, I'm on the other side of the fence on), because other than benchmarks you typically don't see a difference in speed.

However, I would like to ask why you didn't go with a 754-pin athlon 64. When I went for my last system purchase, I almost got the 939-pin, but decided the difference in price would better be spent on a better video card. Somebody is bound to scream "but what about the upgradability", and to them I pre-reply: When do you replace just the processor to upgrade your system? With the speeds nowdays, there is only a small difference between the minimum processor compatible with that motherboard, and the maximum. Sure, they might come out with some really sweet 939-pin Athlon 64's, but they will probably want to run at a higher FSB, and so, would need a new motherboard.

Well, that's my opinion, so take it as you want it.

Lasereth

I realize that it's just luck of the draw, but that's the problem. I don't want luck to determine if my computer is going to overclock or not, and I sure as hell don't want to go through costly RMA processes to get new parts. I've had this happen to me with 3 or 4 different sets of PC parts...it's really annoying. Like Rawb said, you'll barely notice an increase in speed by OC'ing your processor. I believe it's better to pay extra and get a processor that doesn't need OC'ing!

OC'ing is fun, and when it works it's very rewarding. My main reasoning is that OC'ing is a lot of luck and most people won't admit it.

-Lasereth

__________________
"A Darwinian attacks his theory, seeking to find flaws. An ID believer defends his theory, seeking to conceal flaws." -Roger Ebert

510cut

wow lots of advice. hmm well on OC'in... I kinda just feel like I want to get the most out of whatever I buy, although its not a requirement of mine. LOL I bought my current system with all intents on OC'in but never got around to it.

I don't really care about sound coming from the harddrive, really nothing can be louder then my current computer. I'm probably going to just buy whatever one goes on sale thats SATA. Unless I feel like splurging on the raptors.

Hmm I'll keep the info about Maxtor in mind, I have a Maxtor one ATM.. about 3-4 years hasnt died yet.. (knock on wood). Well I wanna partition just so I can format easier.

Haha hmm the Lian Li cases do look sooo nice. Do you know the difference between the PC-60 and 61? I can't tell, just color?

Well I wanted the 939 because it's suppose to OC better I think? I dunno and it seems they are about the same price as the 754s


Gahh I think I'll just wait a few more weeks and see how prices are. Although I might pickup a Lian Li case.... just cause I like it so much lol.

hmm what I'm thinking now.

CPU- 3200 or 3500 939 Depending on price whenever I decide to purchase.
Motherboard- MSI Neo2 Plat Read some mixed reviews but I like the board, although I haven't had a chance to look at other less expensive boards, any suggestions?
RAM- whatever value ram is cheaper :P Whats better? CAS Latency of 2.5-3-3 or Cas Latency: 2.5 7-4-4

How are the 6800s? haha atm I'm on a ti4200.... soooooo I think anything will be a vast vast vast improvement :P

cyrnel

Laser,

Yes, a single purchase of components has some luck but the overclocking process is anything but. I've had success for years, in and out of good times when processors are flexible and others aren't. I teach local newcomers how to do it. As I said, always keeping things simple. No exotic cooling unless they want to delve into that on their own. We tune the systems to get the most out of them. Move forward until problems appear, back off to 60% of the increase. The systems are extremely stable when done carefully. When someone ignores my paranoia and runs at the bleeding edge - and some do - they're either comfortable and getting good at it or they're my source of horror stories.

As for the benefits of overclocking, generalizations don't hold water. (<-except that one ) Sometimes there's a significant improvement, other times it's just a learning process. The gain depends entirely on the user and intended use. A gaming system will be mostly GPU & vidRAM bound and so won't benefit much from processor improvements. (mostly) A FreeBSD build system needs the best processor & disk performance it can get, and video means nothing. Even so, there's a mix as subsystems become dependent on each other. This is common sore thumb when components are mismatched such that one is always waiting on the rest. i.e. The best GPU will benefit from a faster stream of shape & bitmap data.

Case in point: my 6800 running Doom3 overclocks to 84fps at ~80% of it's potential. Further overclocking makes no difference, until I notch up the AMD 64 FSB. Combined with careful DRAM timing, now I can bump up the 6800 and it makes the difference between 84fps and 94fps. If I clock to the limit of CPU stability, RAM timing falls apart and I'm back to 86fps.

Locating bottlenecks is the challenge, but that's the key to performance in any system. "Overclocking" or "tweaking" are this analysis and tuning as applied to PC's. Just as with automobile hotrodding, the basics sound the same but you can find different methods and results. Manufactured boxes don't have the luxury of this individual consideration. They're built to a mass-production spec that has to take into account averages of component quality, warranty costs, etc. The manufacturer has to be worried about the lowest-common-combination of bad parts. We as box building individuals are able to choose our limits up to our knowledge, the components we received, and the effort we're willing to expend.

Man, what a diatribe. Sorry if I put you to sleep. I usually have this debate in person and questions interrupt before I get on a roll.

Crisis

Build it over time. Grab the motherboard and cpu and use your old parts. Then slowly purchase the other parts. Better than buying everything at once and having to compromise on one component.

510cut

haha yea... I actually just oc'd my 2100+ lol... 1.83 ghz:P

I'm thinking about buying some pieces when I see price drops. Like I plan on getting a HD soon cause I want to take out my current one to plug into the PS2. I might buy another dvd burner soon too the 3520 is looking awfully tempting.

shortynickel

one guy i work with just dropped about 1k down on a 64 machine....not to sure on all the specs but i know he has 2 gig's of ram, (if i remember correctly) he said he has 2 80 gig sata drives (may have been from his old system or another convo from work) but i know he went with the sata drives...he just got it put together last night and the first install was working fine but something got hosed and he couldnt use his browser so he had to reinstall all over again but...the 10-15 mins he was able to play with it, it ran great....if you want/need more details about what he did buy i can find out the complete details for ya.

anyway....i have also heard bad things about the maxtor drives, i always buy WD hard drives and Crucial memory...i havent checked out the abit boards for 64 but my next upgrade will be an Abit AN7...everything i would need in a motherboard for a good price, along with Crucial memory....also they have high performance ram at a half decent price imo