Twizted

I'm mainly a PC user, but I think Apple hardware is usually some of the cleanest around. OS X is OK (I could take it or leave it) but their MacBook's and MacBook Pro's are great. The MBP puts down some serious performance for being a thin package.

What other gems are out there? Ones that aren't big-n-chunky, but are clean and powerful?

edit: I should add, I ask as I am 3 - 6 months away from replacing my HP (that looks and feels like it was made by Fisher Price... but hey... it was cheap)

Jason

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Halx

I have a Sony Vaio 12" laptop that is very slick, light and quite powerful for its age. I think it's quite sexy. 4+ years old, but sexy.

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Willravel

Sony has always had some of the best products on the PC market. I'm a big fan of their notebooks, and if I were going to get a laptop that runs Windows, I'd be all over the AR Series, the one with the Core Duo T7200, the 240 GB HD, the NVIDIA 7600 GT, in glossy black. It's a sharp, quick, and reliable computer.

cyrnel

ASUS makes some very nice models. Their quality and durability is better than most, and the price well below the big brands. (...who just buy theirs pre-built from ODMs anyway.) Check out the W2 series. Looks like a black MacBook Pro and it even has a subwoofer.

Newegg carries a nice selection.

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There are a vast number of people who are uninformed and heavily propagandized, but fundamentally decent. The propaganda that inundates them is effective when unchallenged, but much of it goes only skin deep. If they can be brought to raise questions and apply their decent instincts and basic intelligence, many people quickly escape the confines of the doctrinal system and are willing to do something to help others who are really suffering and oppressed." -Manufacturing Consent: Noam Chomsky and the Media, p. 195

shakran

the new Compaq models with the Impact cases are REALLY sharp lookin'. Understated, classy, and even elegant. Makes 'em look a whole lot more expensive than they are. Online pictures don't do 'em justice at all. Best of all, the Impact finish is impregnated into the plastic instead of painted on, so scratches aren't such a big deal.

Twizted

Ohh... I forgot about the Vaio's - i wonder how they stack against the 15" MacBookPro -

What about other original manufactors?

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A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing.
-- Emo Philips

Willravel

You mean stylistically? That's subjective. I like white laptops, but a lot of people don't, so their piece of pie might be something different.

cyrnel

Twizted, the only laptop manufacturers mentioned so far are ASUS and a small number of Sonys. (I haven't kept track which.) Even most of Sony's are bought as spec from ODMs, the same way Apple specs theirs.

__________________
There are a vast number of people who are uninformed and heavily propagandized, but fundamentally decent. The propaganda that inundates them is effective when unchallenged, but much of it goes only skin deep. If they can be brought to raise questions and apply their decent instincts and basic intelligence, many people quickly escape the confines of the doctrinal system and are willing to do something to help others who are really suffering and oppressed." -Manufacturing Consent: Noam Chomsky and the Media, p. 195

Twizted

I meant for performance (Procs, Vid card, etc...)

Looks are subjective which is why I was asking about models other folks found good looking in case there were gems in there I had overlooked.

Also - Which ODM's can you buy direct from? (and what does ODM stand for? - I assume it's the company that makes the equipment for the resellers)

__________________
A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing.
-- Emo Philips

Willravel

Hehehe, the Apple vs. PC hardware thing might be for another thread.

Or battlefield.

Twizted

Nah.. in the context of this thread, it's hardware vs. hardware. Now the OS X vs. XP vs. Linux would certainly be another thread

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A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing.
-- Emo Philips

Willravel

K, laptop comparo with no subjective conclusions. Just facts. And, to keep it from being a threadjack, it has to implement the style aspect of each computer. Please let me know if this is an unfair comparo:


Make: Apple
Model: MacBook
Processor: Intel Core 2 Duo, 2.0GHz
RAM: 1GB
Hard Drive: 80GB
Drive: Superdrive (6x DVD+R DL/DVD±RW/CD-RW)
Wireless: AirPort Extreme Card and Bluetooth
Price: $1,299
Cool factor: 8.4/10, This laptop is an Apple, which for many people automaticaly means style and flash. The white color, clean lines, and simple curves make it a great computer to bring to a civics class at Berkeley.

vs

Make: Gateway
Model: NX100X
Processor: Intel Core Solo, 1.6GHz
RAM: 1GB
Hard Drive: 80GB
Drive: External USB 8x Multi-Format DVD Writer (DVD±R/±RW/CD-RW)
Wireless: Intel® 802.11a/b/g wireless networking card and bluetooth
Price: $1,099
Cool Factor: 5, It's nice, but it looks like everything else out there and really has no physically distunguishing features.

So now we go head to head:

Processor: MacBook, the speed is 2.5 times the Gateway
RAM: Tie
Hard Drive: Tie
Drive: Gateway, it's got 8x over 6x
Wireless: MacBook, 802.11n is much faster
Price: Gateway
Cool Factor: Mac. Even though it urks a few die hard PC fans, most people love the fun and stylish look of Macs and the cool-by-association thing that comes with them.

Final score:
Macbook: 3
Gateway: 2

Twas close.

cyrnel

Hate to say it Will, but that Gateway sucks.

You should compare the portability (size/weight), as well as video and screen options.

This ASUS is outstanding for $1288: ASUS A8 Series A8JP-4S029M

Display: 14" WXGA+ 1440x900 (better)
Processor: Core 2 Duo T7200 (The same 2GHz, 4MB L2 cache)
RAM: 1GB DDR2 667 (same, but the VRAM makes it better)
Hard Drive: 120GB 5400RPM SATA (better) (another $150 if from Apple)
Optical: 8x DVD burner (better)
Wireless: 802.11abg/Bluetooth/IRDA (IRDA better)
LAN: 10/100/1000 (same)
Video: Dedicated Mobility X1700 with its own 256MB (Better than the MBPro)
Video out: DVI, VGA, S-Video (way better)
Cards: MMC, SD, MS, MS PRO, and an ExpressCard 54 slot (all better)
Other: 5xUSB, 1x1394a, 1xheadphone, 1xmicrophone (+4 USB better)
Webcam: yes, but crappy (worse)
Weight: 5.25lbs (same)
Warranty: 2yr parts & labor (+1yr)
Other: Carrying case, mouse, junk. (all better)
OS: Media Center (free Vista upgrade) (different)

The only place the MacBook does better is the pre-N wireless, better webcam, and style. The MacBook's slightly smaller size may be better or worse.

Oh, and the ASUS has user upgradeable everything. Everything that's available anyway: RAM, HD, video, wireless, even the CPU.

__________________
There are a vast number of people who are uninformed and heavily propagandized, but fundamentally decent. The propaganda that inundates them is effective when unchallenged, but much of it goes only skin deep. If they can be brought to raise questions and apply their decent instincts and basic intelligence, many people quickly escape the confines of the doctrinal system and are willing to do something to help others who are really suffering and oppressed." -Manufacturing Consent: Noam Chomsky and the Media, p. 195

Twizted

Awesome comparisons - I need to put together a matrix of my top 5 choices.

I do have to ask, cyrnel, is this true?

That's awesome... I hate the fact that laptops are usually almost completely outdated when you open the box. But being able to upgrade video and proc would be excellent.

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A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing.
-- Emo Philips

cyrnel

Yep, _I think_ it's true for most of their models. Asus even sells barebones versions so you can find your own discount processor, ram, hd, etc. It's often something done by VARs who want to "make" their own laptops, but end users can do it too. Google "asus barebones". I'd point out sources but have to take off now.

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There are a vast number of people who are uninformed and heavily propagandized, but fundamentally decent. The propaganda that inundates them is effective when unchallenged, but much of it goes only skin deep. If they can be brought to raise questions and apply their decent instincts and basic intelligence, many people quickly escape the confines of the doctrinal system and are willing to do something to help others who are really suffering and oppressed." -Manufacturing Consent: Noam Chomsky and the Media, p. 195

Willravel

I went to their website and picked the best they had.

The RAM and HD can be upgraded on the Apple, but not the CPU, wireless, or video.

One question:
Isn't 802.11n much faster than 802.11abg? I know the Apple doesn't have infrared, but the N makes it quite a contender. I'd say that ties it up.

cyrnel

Yea, my nit was how that particular system is horribly non-competitive. Kind of weird for a Gateway since they push cheapness (cost and quality) to the limit; they're one of the few box vendors that have pushed my ex-Dell customers back to Dell.

I don't think Apple supports user-upgrades for MacBook HD's, do they? Looking at the one in my MB Pro, it'd be scary for many users.

I mentioned that later but should have called it out on that line. Yes, 802.11n is faster and has better range when you're talking to a properly installed "n" access point. It's certainly a nice freebie. I'd take it over IRDA, too.

From there the upgrades, slots, readers & such are horribly subjective. Some people need them, some couldn't care less. To me, style and the OS are the two biggest Mac draws. (for those who care) Competitiveness of the hardware comes and goes. The same happens with PC offerings (witness Gateway) but in that world there are always choices.

I could build a better Asus for less than my MBP, and load a monster multiboot Win/*nix, but I have to stay in touch with customers. A mac running everything isn't perfect but it covers most bases and adds a sort of PC-glasnost appeal.

No perfect answer. No religion. Methinks Twizted is asking the right questions, no?

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There are a vast number of people who are uninformed and heavily propagandized, but fundamentally decent. The propaganda that inundates them is effective when unchallenged, but much of it goes only skin deep. If they can be brought to raise questions and apply their decent instincts and basic intelligence, many people quickly escape the confines of the doctrinal system and are willing to do something to help others who are really suffering and oppressed." -Manufacturing Consent: Noam Chomsky and the Media, p. 195

Willravel

The warentee issues go away if you say you lost the reciept from an authorized Mac repair guy. Laptops are always going to be little clusterf**ks as far as stuffing things in them. Apple's innards are jumbled just like Dell or HP

Twizted

While doing research, I came across Notebook review

http://www.notebookreview.com

Which seems to be a handy way of narrowing down based on performance.

Still haven't found a good way to do the comparisons (like you were above) without doin it manal style.

My interest in upgrades are with the assumption that unless I did it from an "approved" vendor, I take my warrentee in my own hands. But as someone that's been knee deep in computers since 91 and work in the computer field, I am ok with that risk.

I still think what I need to do is lay out the top 10 performers in the price range I want to spend, than stack rank them on looks (subjective) and again on performance and pick the one that comes out with the highest average ranking!

That or I'll end up making a completely irrational decision and buy the hawtest rig I can, blow my budget, and spend the next 3 months trying to catch up on paying it off my credit card.

__________________
A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing.
-- Emo Philips

Willravel

Okay, I've done some research (went to cnet) and I've found what I see to be the top 5 laptops on the market:
1) Dell XPS M1710
2) Toshiba Satellite P105-S921
3) Sony VAIO SZ
4) HP Compaq NX9420
5) Apple MacBook Pro

So here we go:
Processor:
1) Intel Core Duo T2600 2.16 GHz
2) Intel Centrino Duo
3) Intel Core Duo T2400 1.83 GHz
4) Intel Core Duo T2500 2 GHz
5) Intel Core Duo 2.16 GHz

Tie between 1 and 5

RAM
1) 2GB
2) 1GB
3) 1GB
4) 1GB
5) 1GB

Winner: 1

Hard Drive
1) 100GB
2) 160GB
3) 100GB
4) 80GB
5) 120GB

Winner: 2

Optical Storage:
1) DVD+/-RW
2) DVD+/-RW
3) 10x (CD) / 2x (DVD-RW) / 2.4x (DVD+RW)
4) 10x (CD) / 4x (DVD±RW) / 5x (DVD-RAM)
5) 6x double-layer SuperDrive

Winner: 5

Display:
1) 17 in
2) 17 in TFT active matrix
3) 13.3 in TFT active matrix
4) 17 in TFT active matrix
5) 17 in TFT active matrix

Tie between 1, 2, 4, and 5

Video:
1) NVidia GeForce Go 7900 GTX, 512MB
2) NVIDIA GeForce Go 7900 GS - PCI Express x16, 256MB
3) NVIDIA GeForce Go 7400, 128MB
4) ATI Mobility Radeon X1600 - PCI Express, 256MB
5) ATI Mobility Radeon X1600 - PCI Express x16, 256MB

Winner: 1

Camera
1) Nope
2) Nope
3) Integrated
4) Nope
5) Integrated

Tie between 3 and 5

Networking:
1) Bluetooth
2) 802.11 abg
3) 802.11 abg, bluetooth
4) 802.11 abg, bluetooth 2.0
5) 802.11 n, bluetooth 2.0

Winner: 5

Price:
1) $2,747.00
2) I dunno.
3) $2,149.99
4) $1,299.00
5) $1,999.00

Winner: 4

So yeah,
1) 4 points
2) 2 points
3) 1 point
4) 2 points
5) 5 points

*dances* Mac wins, again by one.

YaWhateva

but, will, crynel just linked an Asus laptop that's better or equal to the MBPro in specs (minus the wireless card and webcam) and is $1200 + Apple's taxes cheaper than a MBPro. The two spots where the MBPro wins are hardly worth $1400 or so (including taxes). Well there may be 3 spots where the MBPro wins if you consider the OS but still, there is a huge difference in cost.

The extra USB ports in the Asus laptop make a world of difference, I really wish my Rev.1 MBPro had more than 2 USB ports.

1)Asus A8 Series A8JP-4S029M
2)MBpro

Processor
1)2GHz Core 2Duo 4MB L2 Cache
2)2.33 GHz Core 2Duo
winner 2 0.33GHz?? Pssh, Big deal.

RAM
1)1GB
2)2GB
winner 2 (but can add another 1 GB for $100 or so)

HDD
1)120GB
2)120GB
tie

Optical Storage
1)8x dvd burner
2)6xSuperdrive
winner 1

Screen
1)14" WXGA+ resolution 1440x900
2)15.1" TFT active matrix resolution 1440x900
kind of difficult here, the MBPro's is bigger but with older technology. The Asus has a better screen but smaller in size. call it a tie?

Video
1)x1700 256MB Ram
2)x1600 256MB Ram
winner 1

Price
1)$1288.88
2)$2499.99
winner 1 by a long sot.

camera
1)integrated
2)integrated but better
tie but who uses their integrated camera?

Networking
1)802.11 abg
2)Wireless N
winner 2 but who is utilizing wireless N?

Total
1)3
2)3
Tie)3

It looks like a straight up tie. Except the giant price difference, you can buy two Asus laptops for the price of one MBPro and it will compete with it on par. Not to mention the Asus can be upgraded. The advantage the MBPro has is aesthetic values and the OS (depends on who you ask).

*Edit*

Also, you got the price wrong for the MBPro that has the x1600 with 256MB of video Ram. That only comes on the $2500 model. But that also adds another 1 GB of Ram (which only would cost ?$100 to put in the Asus laptop). And on top of that, the 17inch screen only comes on the $2800 model.

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cyrnel

I was thinking about the MB (non-pro), except for that one mention of video. Really, the Pro vs. not buys you:
- A very sweet case
- Bigger (good for screen, bad for tossability)
- X1600 in the higher models
- 1394b
- ExpressCard34
- faster CPU options
- A lighter wallet

That's it if I remember my purchase day dilemmas. The ASUS is sort of in between but with much better video.

No kidding.

The ASUS comes with 2x512, so 2GB means ~$200

__________________
There are a vast number of people who are uninformed and heavily propagandized, but fundamentally decent. The propaganda that inundates them is effective when unchallenged, but much of it goes only skin deep. If they can be brought to raise questions and apply their decent instincts and basic intelligence, many people quickly escape the confines of the doctrinal system and are willing to do something to help others who are really suffering and oppressed." -Manufacturing Consent: Noam Chomsky and the Media, p. 195

YaWhateva

Oh, I hate when they do that.

But, I still find the Asus quite comparible for the price difference, especially because of the video card. The Express card doesnt really appeal to me since I doubt I will ever buy something to use it with. Also, my laptop only has FW 400 not the FW 800 the new fancy ones have, and it's 2GHz and has 1 GB of Ram but it has the x1600 256 MB card. Sorry I guess I am just bitter that Apple released the new rev's a month after I bought mine

BTW, yes the case is teh sex (Ahem, sorry for that, haha).

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“If the Americans go in and overthrow Saddam Hussein and it's clean, he has nothing, I will apologize to the nation, and I will not trust the Bush administration again.” - Bill O'Reilly

"This is my United States of Whateva!"

cyrnel

Definitely. I saw my huge Pro premiums as the X1600, case, and the 2.33GHz processor. That thing alone is $350 over the 2.0GHz price. No surprise many companies leave it out of their lineup.

We forgot availability. Asus does a good job, but only a very few people will be able to try one out before purchasing. My previous laptop purchase didn't work out until the third try. That was worth a lot to have a local store and no return/exchange penalty. The Mac wins this one in most situations, though my store would have charged to exchange.

__________________
There are a vast number of people who are uninformed and heavily propagandized, but fundamentally decent. The propaganda that inundates them is effective when unchallenged, but much of it goes only skin deep. If they can be brought to raise questions and apply their decent instincts and basic intelligence, many people quickly escape the confines of the doctrinal system and are willing to do something to help others who are really suffering and oppressed." -Manufacturing Consent: Noam Chomsky and the Media, p. 195