Salomon

A 5'8, 180 lb Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu fighter from a large family of fighters, is well-known particularly in Japan but fights around the world, won the first UFC (ultimate fighting championship), and once beat an opponent who was 6' 8, 486 lbs with a shoulder lock. Apparently, he regularly beats guys twice his size. He beats them with submission holds, choke holds, arm-bars, finesse moves -- not overwhelming power...his stamina and flexibility are amazing, he can take ungodly amounts of punishment, and he has the heart of a lion.

Anyone else see this guy in action? And why doesn't he fight in the UFC anymore?


Do arms bend like that?




Akebono: 6'8, 486lb. Lost to 6'1, 180lb Gracie.


What a fight this was. Kimo Leopoldo (300+ lbs) had a long ponytail that Royce grabbed and wouldn't let go no matter what Kimo did. Note Royce holding Kimo's hand so he couldn't hit him. Royce won the fight.


Another phenomenal fight. Dan "The Beast" Severn lost the match when out of nowhere, Gracie - on his back - caught Severn in a headlock and forced Severn to tap out.

Spartak

Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is fucking badass. I watched a sports show about one of the Gracie boys, a big guy had him in some sort of armlock by the side of the cage, but he slithered out of it somehow and reversed it into a vicious looking chokehold and won the match.

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Charlatan

The Gracie family got their asses handed to them by Sakuraba... Sakuraba broke Ryan Gracie's arm in the ring...

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spongy

I saw those first few UFC those were some great fights .. although I can't really watch a Hollywood fight scene without seeing those in my mind... in fact on of the fights from Fight Club was based on a UFC fight.

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Charlatan

That's not true at all.

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spongy

Whats not true at all? If ya watch it with one of the commenatry tracks ( I forget which of the 4 ) it is said that the repeated nut shots was taken straught froma UFC fight.

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Salomon

Cool...these guys can get out of so much shit, its unbelievable. Fascinating to watch Royce, a small guy, bring these huge, muscle-bound, steroid-infused monstrosities to their knees without a punch. One minute he's on the ground looking like he's getting killed, then the next thing you know the other guy is tapping out. You're like, What The Fuck Just Happened?? How could he have possibly won? lol I wish they would get him back in the UFC.

I've not seen the other Gracies fight, but I understand they are all highly skilled and dedicated.

Anomaly_

Royce Gracie is a legend in MMA without a doubt, but the jig is up as far as Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu goes. In the early UFCs, few fighters knew the BJJ ground game and were summarily schooled by guys like Royce. His loss to Sakuraba was a changing of the guard, and it cemented the fact that MMA was an evolving sport rather than mindless brawling. The subsequent posturing of Gracies like Ryan and Rickson is disappointing, but at least Renzo is a good ambassador for the family and sport.

It's interesting that you bring Royce up, because another legend in the making, Fedor Emelianenko, defended his HW title against Mirko Cro Cop last night. He's a Sambo/Judo wiz who's not afraid to stand up or pound it out on the ground--the epitome of well-roundedness.

Charlatan

Interesting. I read in an interview with the author that there was something else that inspired the book. Not surprised that the film took cues from UFC...

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highthief

They also altered the rules quite a bit. A good submission expert will almost always win if the fighters, once down on the ground, are allowed to remain there. In the early UFC days this gave a big advantage to the Gracies. Now, fighters are made to stand up if the ground fighting is going nowhere, which is an enormous disadvantage to the BJJ guys versus more rounded fighters and strikers.

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Charlatan

MMA didn't used to be MMA it was just a bunch of fighters with various skills going up against each other... You would have kickboxers fighting grapplers, fighting barroom brawlers, fighting Sambo wrestlers... Anyone who gets in the ring and isn't proficient in both grappling AND striking is going to get beat... and bad.

As highthief points out, the rules have been updated as well. Grappling purists are upset by this but let's face it, the new rules make it better to watch.


I really like Pride and UFC has gotten better over the last little while. It's too bad King of the Cage never really took off. The smaller cage made for a more exciting match than UFC.

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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Salomon

I read about his fight with Sakabura...it went something like 90 minutes right? It's interesting to hear that the sport of MMA has evolved to the point where the top guys in the UFC for example are expert both in striking from their feet, as well as the groundwork. I'm a big fan of Matt Hughes in this respect, not so much Chuck Liddell. I've never seen Liddell on the ground - a great striker no doubt, but I wonder how his Wrestling/Jiu-Jitsu skills are...

Not heard of Fedor Emelianenko...he looks tough.

Anyone know if the Gracie/Sakabura fight is on VHS/DVD anywhere?
Are Emelianenko's fights on video?

Charlatan

It took place at Pride... I used to have it on DVD. It was the Pride FC 2000 Grand Championships... you can buy it at Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...v=glance&s=dvd

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powerclown

Big fan of Mirko CroCop and Rumina Sato.

Strange Famous

but him in a street fight with Mike Tyson.

It would last seconds

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Charlatan

Mike would get his ass kicked... wouldn't know what hit him.

Punches are only good if you keep some distance between yourself and the person you are trying to hit. Get in close enough and your punches lose their punch.

Now Tyson might be able to chew off his ear but that's another thing altogether...


Someone like jean jacques machado or royce gracie would only lose to Tyson if he got lucky enough to connect...

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Anomaly_

Yes, that's true too, but you can't deny that most fighters also had no clue about submissions in the early days. Vale Tudo rules were novel in the early 90s, but for a few reasons, I'm glad they're gone.

Liddell has a good submission defense and he actually wrestled in college so he can handle himself on the ground long enough to get back up (which he also does really well.)

If you browse the Fight Finder at Sherdog, you can find the records of all fighters and the corresponding events of each fight (of which most are on DVD). Definitely check out some Emelianenko fights. His fights against Herring, Nogueira, Coleman, Fujita, Randleman, and Cro Cop showcase his array of skills.

Nice troll bait. Although Tyson has a decent standing kimura for a boxer, his game is pretty limited. When he visited Tito Ortiz backstage once, he made it pretty clear that he wouldn't want to mix it up with those guys.

Salomon

Thank you for this. I had no idea these fights were released so widely. My DVD collection will be growing quite a bit larger very soon.

I used to think the same thing...until I saw my first UFC fight. While Tyson (and I'm a huge Tyson fan) might have a puncher's chance to end a fight quickly, there are so many ways these MMA guys can incapacitate you it's not funny. By no means am I an expert on MMA-style fighting, but based on what I've seen happen to Strikers/Boxers in the UFC, Tyson is simply too one-dimensional of a fighter to hang with these guys IMO.

Thanks for that link. Interesting to hear that Liddell has a good ground game. The few times I have seen him fight, he never went to the ground once. If you could recommend one Liddell fight demonstrating his ground game, which one would you pick?

And I am definitely going to check out some of the Emelianenko fights you mentioned, thanks.

I think this form of sport should have much wider exposure, as the skill sets involved are much more subtle, complex and, I believe, more enjoyable to watch.

Charlatan

Sherdog is a great site... I was racking my brians but couldn't remember the site... Thanks

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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

spongy

To clarify, I meant that a part of a specific fight was inspired by UFC. Haven't watched it for a while ( too long really), but someone keeps repeatedly punching or kneeing his victim in the balls. that was the part inspired by UFC. And I saw that fight, too.. it was in the first 2 or 3 UFCs.

If memory serves, Palahniuk said he got the idea for Fight Club when he went to work with a black eye, and no one asked about it.

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Stephen King

RubenBaraja

What did everyone make of the recent UFC PPV - the one with Liddel vs Horn (I think( as the main event?

Strange Famous

Well, Tyson in a fight with rules... you may have a point... the skilled wrestler would always bring him down in a ring with rules and judges... but in a street fight, when its just two people going at each other... I cant see many people walking away from it with a peak Tyson (same with Liston or Foreman)

Id love to see a young Foreman against a young Tyson. Wouldnt last long... but wow!

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"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

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Astrocloud

I trained under his Nephews Renor and Reron. The truth about the match between Royce and Sakuraba -was that Sakuraba was much more interested in bending the rules than fighting straight out. He kept sticking his body out of the ring and just biding time until Royce weakened. It's sad really -there was no time when that match approached what people would consider a "street style matchup".

pressureguy

Yes, but Sakuraba and Wallid Ismael used Gracie Jiujitsu to beat Gracie Jiujitsu, so what does that prove exactly?

Of course Sak did not train in Gracie Jiujitsu, but he studied the tapes of fights, learned their moves, and used basically their moves to fight them. Now, if Sak would have beaten them four years earlier, it would have been more impressive, but he had years to observe and prepare.

Also, the fight with Sak and Royce lasted 90 minutes and was toe to toe for the whole 90 minutes. When you have a fight last for 90 minutes of solid techniques and pounding, how can you say that one fighter dominated the other. Sak did solidly win, but a 90 minute pound-fest does not constitute a one sided win.

I do need to say, however, that Sauraba is a better fighter than Royce Gracie and is far more creative in the ring, but I cannot say that he is the best in the ring. His record as of late shows that. I wish he would have fought Rickson back about 7 years ago, though. That would have been a fight......

pressureguy

Fly

this was a great fight..........

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bundy

interesting to see how the Gracies are viewed elsewhere.
here, they are pretty much just seen as laughing stocks.
no one takes them seriously.
mind you, they aren't quite seen in the same amusing light as Bob Sapp and Akebono (which is a shame since he was such a phenomenal and respected yokozuna despite being gaijin), but they aren't far off.

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Charlatan

Bundy, the Gracies were/are given a lot of respect in America because when UFC first came out, few in America were even aware of Ju-jitsu let alone, Brazilian Vale Tudo. When Royce would enter the ring against much bigger, meaner looking apponents and take them down with an arm bar or a knee bar, the American audiences went nuts.

The Japanese, having been into Ju-jitsu a lot longer than the Brazilians were already quite aware of this fighting style. From what I understand there has been a long standing rivalry between practitioners of the two styles of fighting.

The derision the Japanese heap on the Gracies stems from the over-the-top arrogance of the Gracies in the general. It doesn't fly very well in Japan.

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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Anomaly_

While I agree that Sakuraba is vastly overrated (because his showmanship clouds people's opinions), he most certainly did not use BJJ against the Gracies. He was well-versed in catch-as-catch-can wrestling, which is basically submission wrestling. Ken Shamrock has the same background and it is not the same as BJJ.

Dragonknight

Sakurabab seams to only do really well, versus the guys he can sit and study i.e. the Gracies. He watched there films for a while before he up and beat them. Going up against other fighters he doesn't seam to do so well.