Strange Famous

Croatia 3 - England 2

Utterly shit performance, 10 out of 11 starting players played like cunts... we deserve to beat. We have the best league in the world, some of the best individual players, and they cant play as a fucking team to save their lives.

At 2-2, what happened? retreat, retreat, retreat... wait for the killer blow.

McClaren should fall on his sword, do the decent thing... youve never been up to the job.

Not a single home nation in the finals... British football is the laughing stock of the world tonight. Croatia could have scored 6. They were the better team, and the so called "great" players were reduced to lumping the ball up the pitch like fucking shcool children.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Daniel_

Our team is shite.

I'm not impressed, but you said it all already.

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Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
And everthing is Green and Submarine
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Titan_Uranus

And now they firing the coach ,the shite is getting deeper .

Schwan

Wow, that was nasty. So who's left? My bookie says Spain's going to get the title.

Daniel_

You can never discount the Germans, especially at home, and Croatia look comfortable in victory.

I think it's too tight to call.

The good news is that England don't have to play another competative game until after Euro 2008, so we have a good long time to find the right person for the job.

So - who's up for a bit of prognostication?

I'm wondering if Shearer is in the frame?

With the FA talking about dropping all the grass roots crap and developmental stuff from the role and just making it coach of the national side we could use a solid footballing head.

Or is it time to admit that England is a spent force, and go for Team GB, so that instead of 4 weak chances to win anything, we have one solid chance?

I realise I'll burn in hell for saying it, but Lions RFC are good, so why not have Lions FC?

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Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
And everthing is Green and Submarine
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Willravel

I was rooting for you guys, too.

spindles

Gee - that is really some serious blasphemy isn't it? I think a lot of people on all sides of that fence will make sure it never happens. It would be like suggesting the Aussies and Kiwis field a combined team. It just would never happen.

StrangeFamous - do you think it is the English players that make the EPL so strong?

Maybe you guys just need to admit that you just aren't very good at sport (beating us in the Rugby aside of course)

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Daniel_

Tell you what, Spindles, how about Lions FC vs Team ANZAC?

That way everyone will be so busy hating the rest of their own team, there's going to be no chance of hating the other side.

You're right though - the vested interests of the FA's in the UK are so strong that there's no hope of a unified team - in fact, the individual FA's are currently stating that they will fight against a GB Football team being put together for the Olympics - even in London 2012, just because it creates a precedent and they fear that.

The fact that the UK gets four votes at EUEFA and FIFA to every other country's one is also a huge factor...

Anyway, didn't Australia invite the Kiwis to be part of their commonwealth after independence?

Did you not have enough sheep of your own to molest?

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╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗
Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
And everthing is Green and Submarine
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Schwan

Shearer doesn't even hold a license yet, and I don't think he's up to it. The press keeps throwing new names into the hat, like O'Neill or even Capello (huh?), but I think Mourinho will be the one.

But that's beside the point, really. I think it comes down to what many people are saying, and that is that the players are overpriced and earn too much. It's the "celeb" culture and all that. Last time I was in London, the gossip basically came down to who bought a house and where.

Daniel_

You're not wrong. Footballers seem to earn a stupendous amount of money for their clubs, and do not care for their country.

If my country invited me to represent it at ANYTHING (other thn maybe War or Soddomy) I'd agree, even if I was no good...

The honour of puting on your nation's colours seems lost on the spoiled wankers that we've bred in our current crop of sportsmen, in the main. I'm sure there are exceptions, but not enough of them to make a comitted hardworking and dedicated squad.

I don't think that a foreign coach can create that national pride - who is going to fight for

This royal throne of kings, this scepter'd isle,
This earth of majesty, this seat of Mars,
This other Eden, demi-paradise,
This fortress built by Nature for herself
Against infection and the hand of war,
This happy breed of men, this little world,
This precious stone set in the silver sea,
Which serves it in the office of a wall,
Or as a moat defensive to a house,
Against the envy of less happier lands,
This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England

for a bloke called Jose...

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╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗
Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
And everthing is Green and Submarine
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highthief

OK, aside from crap performances earlier in the tournament (I'm thinking the draw with Macedonia at home) last night simply exposed McLaren for being a complete clueless fucking idiot.

He plays 4-5-1 with Peter Crouch going solo up front.

Aside from the fact that Crouchie (a good player who gets a bad rap from people who have no concept about football) needs a partner to play with and to set up, he plays Joe Cole and Shawn Wright Phillips in wide positions.

Now, I can only imagine that McLaren never noticed two very critical things here:

1) Peter Crouch plays best off the crossed ball. He's 8 feet fucking tall. You cross balls into guys his size.

2) SWP and Cole cannot cross a ball to save their lives.

D'uh.

Additionally, starting Carson when James was available was utterly mad (and McClown, don't you wish you hadn't jerked Jamie Carragher around with Terry and Rio absent - he would've settled that defence down you would not have had to play the inept Bridge and/or Lescott yesterday).

Anyway, I hope they get Mourinho or failing that, Mark Hughes or Capello. Please do not mention Sam Allardyce or Harry Redknapp or any other "English" candidate - the only one vaguely appealing is Coppell but I don't think he could manage the egos on that team. England needs a manager whose personality is stronger than that of the players.

Beyond that, some serious thinking needs to be done to better develop talent - there are what, 5 english keepers playing regularly in the EPL? How many strikers - hell, they had to dip into the Champonship for guys like Nugent and even Walcott to some extent.

And now the much maligned Beckham (who set up Crouch for the tying goal) has almost certainly played his last competitive match and there's been so little effort to develop potential replacements for his dead ball ability - Bentley who can't be bothered to turn out for his country where as Beckham would've played with both legs cut off? I think Ashley Young is excellent but his development has been held back.

Anyway, the wife is half-German so we'll be pulling for Klose, Ballack, Lehman, et al next summer.

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Strange Famous

Do I think we have a good team?

Gary Neville
Ashley Cole
John Terry
Steven Gerrard
Wayne Rooney

Are all world class players that any nation in the world would want in their squad. The Premier League has a lot of foriegn stars, so does Serie A, and Italy are world champions... I dont think that is the issue. There are positions we lack depth (goal keeper, left midfield, striker) - but the England first team I would pick with no injuries:

GK - Robinson
RB - Gary Neviile
LB - Ashley Cole
CB - John Terry
CB - Ledley King
LM - Gareth Barry
CM - David Beckham
CM - Steven Gerrard
RM - Aaron Lennon
ST - Wayne Rooney
ST - Michael Owen

Is a top team that has quality players everywhere.

England are not a world class TEAM at the moment though.

We are a team that people are afraid of in a one off game, anyone in the world knows that we can beat anyone on our day... but we dont have the consistency, the balance, and the passion to have a run at a championship.

To know what is wrong with England... the place to start is Stevie G. Look at the way he plays for Liverpool, look at the way he plays for England.

This is not a guy who lacks pride, passion or heart... but he doesnt show it for his nation.

Look at the reaction of the Croats after the game... they were delighted to win, not because they needed it to qualify, but out of pride to play for their nation... they came out and played with fire and they actually wanted the win more, we played all the time only as if we were motivated by a fear of defeat.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Schwan

I think you're right. It's called a national representation for a reason, and if the main guy is not a citizen of the country, it kinda misses the point. On the other hand we just had Beenhakker, the first foreign nat rep coach ever in Poland, pull the team into Euro for the first time.

As for the players... Man, I love Crouch - he's the freakiest thing on a pitch, ever. Every time I see him I expect him to fold up or something, and he's an amazing player for his physical conditions. Rooney has a similar background to Beckham, a poor kid making it big, etc., but that's just one spoiled guy and he's far gone IMO.

I wouldn't say that the English are gone - there's so much potential out there. It's just that the whole thing is in a dissaray right now.


Honestly, I think that booing the national anthemn siglehandedly did that. They're Croats, man - most of them probably are war veterans.

highthief

Ashley Cole? Gotta disagree there - good going forward, not the guy you want protecting the back door, IMO.

Anyway, Croatia did honour to the tournament just as Isreal did the other day against Russia - they competed hard even when they had little cause to do so.

I heard some blind English pundit say that no one on the Croatia team would make the first choice England team - that statement, right there, is what is wrong with English football outside club level. They beat us twice by a 5-2 aggregate score, you idiot.

Was the Croatia anthem booed? I couldn't hear over the tumult at the pub I was at. That would be a disgrace, even if nothing new. They (the FA and Wembley) need to get that under control as it is A) embarassing, and B) it only helps the other team.

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Schwan

hightief

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ne...booed&ie=UTF-8

highthief

That sucks - the people who attended the match and booed should be ashamed. Yeah, give individual players stick, but when you boo an anthem you boo a whole country and that is not appropriate.

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Daniel_

Don't fuck with Croatia - those guys are tough...

__________________

╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗
Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
And everthing is Green and Submarine
╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

Strange Famous

booing another nations anthem is pathetic and insulting.

I didnt notice in that game, but Ive seen it many times at England games - those so called fans are losers.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Telluride

Croatia is pretty good, though. It's not like you guys lost to Australia or something.

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Strange Famous

Croatia are a GOOD side.

But - they are one of the top 20 in the world, but not one of the top 8. England's perception of itself is as a top 8 team... based on performances we simply are not - based on potential... I believe we are. But you can only claim to be a sleeping giant so long.

No disrespect to Croatia at all, they are well drilled, were comfortable on the ball, and have quality all over the park... these boys have a better record in the last 20 years than England probably.

BUT... if you think you a big team, the kind of team that is gonna challenge for championships - and you have a must win game against Croatia at home - you HAVE to win it. Full stop. Defeat was unthinkable.

We didnt win, we arent a big team right now, and we arent going to challenge for championships.

Game Over.

I think I want to say again, cos all of the talk of how disappointing we were is disrespectful to a degree - Croatia came and did a job on us, they played better, with more control, more skill, and ultimately more fire - they deserved to win, and good luck to them.

As for other comments people have made... I appreciate the strength of Serb and Croat nationalism... but playing for your country should be the highest honour in the profession of any sportsman. A big World Cup Game, literally, should be more important than your wedding day or children's births... you shouldnt need a legacy of civil war and human rights abuse to have some fucking pride in wearing your countries flag across your breast.

We didnt go into this game with a desperation to win... we went into with a terror of defeat.

I dont want to see people dying on the pitch, but I want to see people playing like they fucking care, like if they are gonna be beaten they are gonna crawl off the pitch with nothing left when it happens. There were tears after the game, where was that emotion when we needed it?

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

highthief

Today a alot of the England players who played against sides who fielded no members in the team that fell to Croatia received choruses of boos from the crowds at places like Derby (where Lampard and SWP were given the treatment) and Newcastle (where Gerrard heard the boos) - it was funny to see all three of those players turn it against the home fans and score and assist on various goals in winning causes for their teams.

Personally, I think the players care about playing for their country and play to win whenever they are on the pitch.

Making noises about "the players are overpaid and don't care" is inadequate. French players and Italian players make ridiculous sums of money too - yet they were in the World Cup final last year.

And even though MacLaren is a tactical idiot, its not all down to him either.

Fact is that English football has a problem that is much deeper. It begins with parents berating their 9 year olds for giving the ball away during a school match. It continues with coaches who lack technique and skill themselves who continue to teach outdated styles of play. It goes on at a more senior level where straight up big, classic centre forwards are forever picked over smaller players with more finesse and skill. It is tied up in a cultural fear of losing that over-rides the glory of winning.

Among the England fans themselves there is a ridiculous bias against teams like the Under-21s and Under-19s and the Olympics, as if these are unimportant competitions. Guess what? You develop winners over the course of time, they do not appear fully matured at age 27 and pop up to win major tournaments. Do you think it is a coincidence that teams that are successful at these tournaments - Brazil, Argentina, Germany, and Italy - happen to dominate the senior tournaments as well? They learn about winning tournaments not at 9 or 11 or 12 (where the emphasis needs to be on skills) but at 18, 20 and 21 - where confidence and swagger are built and fear is vanquished. The average England fan's ennui concerning the junior championships boggles the mind when we haven't won fuck all in 40 years.

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Strange Famous

I agree mate.

When I was playing badminton the other day, I turned up a bit early and the sports hall had an under 11's five a side going on.

Utterly shocking.

just 10 kids running about after the ball, every kick with one instinct, to wildly swing a boot at the ball when it got near him to send it forwards.

The "coach" basically stood on the sidelines shouting "come on lads" "get stuck in!" and such things

No shape, no vision, no desire to hold the ball.

I would love to see an under 11's game in Italy or Spain to see how different the mentality is.... but we do not raise players to stay in shape, to hold the ball.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

highthief

I was chatting with a guy on another board earlier this year, an English guy living in South America and who is now involved in the game there, and he was saying how, at least in his province, they don't even bother keeping score when the kids are under 12 - they just let them play, let them develop skills and confidence. There's no one giving them stick for giving away the ball while trying something fancy; indeed, they are applauded for trying to become better players.

You think had someone like Arsene Wenger been in charge at Wembley in those dying minutes that the sum total of attacking ideas would have been the goalkeeper trying to desperately launch a ball 80 yards downfield with the aim being to get it vaguely in the vicinity of the big guy in the white shirt?

But I can't just pin it on McLaren - had Curbishley, Allardyce (who looked inept against Liverpool today), or Redknapp been in charge I doubt there would have been any more or better ideas. Maybe Coppell might've had a clue. But that just exposes the depth of the tactical naivete of not just McLaren, but all the other top English managers too, and by association, the naivete that exists right on down the line.

Hell, Gary Megson for England! He beat Man U today!

(That's a sentence I never expected to utter, even in jest!)

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Strange Famous

I would like to see, in this order:

1 - Arsene Wenger
2 - The Special One
3 - Rafa Benitiz

for England

Not one Englishman is remotely qualified for the job.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

highthief

I think a lot of Wenger, but I think he is pretty unlikely to leave the Gunners given their position!

Of the "available" candidates, I'd pick Mourinho first if only because he can put a steel into the backs of the players when they most need it (like on Wednesday). He's no tactical genius, IMO, but he does impart the desire and will to win above almost any other manager in the game - as we've seen so often when Chelsea would pull off a comeback in the last few minutes of a game.

I think Capello woud make an excellent manager too - he's a proven winner. Not just with big sides with bags of cash like Real, but with more modest teams like Roma.

Both Capello and Rafa, though, I think would suffer the abuse of England fans - maybe even Mourinho too - as all of them are relatively cautious managers with a defence first philosophy. I think with Mourinho, though, he's so good with the media, he'd deal with it better as he gives as good as he gets.

Outsider - Alan Shearer, if we want to take a chance like Germany did with Klinsman (who I don't rate for England).

Hey Strange - you watch a lot more Championship football than me, no doubt. Who is the best manager in that league who has not managed in the EPL for any length of time (so you can't pick a guy like Boothroyd or Roeder)?

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dlish

id like to remind you all that we (aussies) drew with croatia in the world cup to advance through and play italy.

unfortunately we lost due to an unfair decision to italy.. so who knows.. the aussies could have been world champions?

so i dare say stop knocking the aussies cos we're up and comers in SOCCER.. and were coming to whoop your asses

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highthief

So, World Cup draw just announced.

England gets Croatia again! Not an easy group with so many trips to Asia.

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spindles

I'm not sure there are that many kiwi football players that would actually improve the Oz team. I think we'd probably lose against a GB team though.

We have more than enough sheep here, thank you very much - I've just misplaced my velcro gloves

I don't recall NZ and Oz ever discussing joining together as an ubercountry. We are pretty close already (basically you can get welfare payments and automatic entry in/into either country without changing citizenship), so I'm not really sure what else we would get by being joined together.

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Ustwo

Makes me glad that soccer is a sport for kids, women, and immigrants in the US

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highthief

You might be able to beat us and South Africa in the Rugby World Cup?

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Strange Famous

I dont think there are any English managers up to the job to be honest.

Out of the Championship, with the exceptions youve given, I'd probably say Alan Pardew... but I wouldnt consider him for even England assistant.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

spindles

we were discussing Football though

In any case, Oz has won old Bill more times than England...

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bhamv

Mourinho's ruled himself out, O'Neil's ruled himself out, a whole score of English managers have ruled themselves out, so far Capello's indicated he might be interested, as has Van Gaal. I suppose we could do worse than Capello and Van Gaal.

There was a BBC article that made an interesting point though, namely to wait until after Euro 08 finishes, because that's when a bunch of national team managers will get sacked. Guus Hiddink anyone?

highthief

I don't think Jose has ruled himself out, actually. I don't think he'll want it just yet, but you never know. He has a giant ego that needs a giant stage.

As for Hiddink - he's well-overrated. Barely got Russia qualified (and only because we failed at the last hurdle). His record with SK was engineered on the back of him effectively shutting down the SK domestic league and seconding players for months at a time to get them to work together - that would never happen in England or anywhere in Europe.

Just wondering if you thought there was anyone up and coming who might be up for the job in a few years.

Rumours say that Paul Ince will be selected to lead Derby - could be interesting although I think he has zero chance to keep them up. That squad of players is dire.

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Strange Famous

Of the people who are up and coming, Stuart Pearce, Aidy Boothroyd, and although he isnt English, Roy Keane.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

ritzy

england now instead of bringing out the same old players they have done for years should be looking at the newer younger players and bringing them up to scratch
alot of you might disagree but i totally think alot of our older players have had thier day and now need to bow out to the younger talent

Strange Famous

If they do hire "the special one" - at least we will finally have a manager who is big enough (or arrogant enough) to stand up to the gutter press, and follow his own course.

They will go after him of course, but I think he loves it, every attack on him becomes an attack on the whole team, and it is the fuel that drives his teams.

Im interested that Rafa has hinted he might like the job too... I think in a one off match he is one of the best tacticians there is.. and he is a hard man who will make hard decisions if he needs to.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Jadedfox

No offense but who in their right mind would want to manage the England squad (not taking into account the massive amounts of cash you'd get)? Ugh, I can just imagine dealing with the British press.

--jaded

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highthief

A guy like Capello has put up with the hype and press surrounding the biggest clubs on the continent. Yeah, the tabs are pretty moronic but it's not likely something the guy hasn't seen before.

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