simivin

-----Note: I know this is long. Sorry for the length. It's mostly for those of you who followed some of the earlier parts of the story (abaya, liltippler, etc) -----

Well, since I had posted numerous times regarding my relationship, I figured I would post the final events. As you could guess, I broke things off with my GF recently. I'm not looking for advice at this point, really, so I'm not entirely sure what merit there is in posting this -- maybe just because it sucks, because it hurts, I'd like to hear opinions, and so that I (and others, hopefully) could learn a little too. As a quick preface, I understand that this is told from my perspective, but I will still try to be unbiased in the retelling. Here is what happened:

My GF and I had been fighting about my friend Sarah since September -- great friend of mine, had had questions that were never resolved, etc. In November, my GF and I broke up over all this and then got back together to give it another try and to make the most of the holidays to see if we could strengthen things up (see http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=97553 for her recounting of those events). Over the month of November, my GF and I did marginally better -- Sarah still came up, often times unprompted, and Thanksgiving was good but still slightly awkward because we were still sensitive.

We had a bit of a row right at the end of Nov, and I was finally saying, "you need to get over this, because it is taking a huge toll on me...and I'm not sure how much more I can take of these fights. Let's leave all this Sarah stuff behind and move on." I had toned down the amount of time I talked with Sarah (not completely, but significantly, because I wanted to try to compromise from my end), and didn't want to give any ultimatums, but we had been revisiting this issue so very often. We started December off much better -- seemingly both committed to getting over our issues. It was one of the best weekends we'd had in a very long time. Sarah came up just briefly the next week, but more in the context that my GF was bothered by thinking about that; we didn't end up fighting, which was nice. As long as we nothing related to Sarah came up, we were doing well -- making it through a nice week and a half before Christmas (she was at my apartment and parents place). At one point two weeks before Christmas, Sarah asked me if I could do her a favor and come to a company dance with her at the end of January. The guy she was seeing on and off was going to be abroad for next semester, and she didn't want to take a random guy to a company event, so asked me. I told her I'd run it by my GF and that it shouldn't be a problem. I wanted to wait for a while, however, because I didn't want to upset my GF before we went to FL for a week after Christmas.

My GF left on Wednesday before Christmas to go to her parents place. Wrote emails back and forth over the next day or so -- usual loving emails. Thursday I got online briefly and talked with Sarah, as I hadn't talked with her for about a week. Since I was in DC (where she lives) and hadn't gotten in touch with her, she gave me grief and then said she had a couple tickets to this by-invitation party or whatever at a bar. Ok, cool. I went with Sarah and had a good time, nothing really exciting really. I crashed at her place on the floor again and went home. My GF tried calling three times that night, once I was on the phone and the other two I missed -- I didn't answer/return the calls because I didn't want her to be upset overnight; I thought that if I called in the morning, it would be water under a bridge and it wouldn't matter so much. Anyway, I went to sleep thinking about my GF, how much I love her, and that I was scared to death of telling her I had hung out with Sarah, even though nothing happened.

So Friday I get back to my folks' place and give my GF a call. It went something like this:
Me: "Hey, good morning!"
Her: "Hey!"
Me: "I got your messages"
Her: "What'd you do last night?"
Me: "I went out"
Her: "With who?"
Me: "Sarah"
at this point, you could almost hear a record scratch to a halt
Me: "How was riding on your dad's harley?"
Her: "Did you call her?"

The conversation degenerated from there. She felt it was sketchy that we had been together for a week and I hadn't mentioned or called Sarah; I hadn't wanted to because I was with my GF and I knew it was a sensitive issue. She felt I was hiding this, when all I had wanted to do was avoid the problems we had had before. I told her I loved her, that Sarah didn't matter anymore...that I had gotten over that since we were doing so much better, etc. I meant everything I said, but nothing was good enough. Then I made the mistake of saying that I couldn't even tell her some things for fear of how she would respond. She asked what, and I told her (being honest) -- one of which was asking her permission to go to the dance-thing with Sarah. My GF ends up telling me "no, absolutely not." I'm not happy, because I tell her I love her, that nothing is going on with Sarah, that she has nothing to worry about. And I meant it all. I ultimately say "fine, I won't." But then she isn't happy because I'm not happy about the decision. Bad conversation all around. We hang up and finish; she leaves a message, however, saying "you're right, you should hang out with whoever you want, she's just another girl, you've never done anything wrong, I'm not happy about it, but you should be able to go."

We talked that night and I thanked her for her message. She asked what my decision was and I said that I'd want to go. Thus began 3 more hours of fighting. She kept asking why I wanted to go -- "because she's a friend, she asked me, and it'd be fun". Nothing more. The next day we fought for about an hour or so in the afternoon. Finally, she called me at 0100 on Christmas. I tried to keep it light, tried to avoid any discussions, and tried to end the conversation on that note. She didn't want to go yet, though. So she ends up saying "I don't want to break up with you, I trust you, and you should be able to do something like this" and I said "true" but my tone struck her wrong, and again, we degenerated into three hours of arguing. Finally, she said "I'm just going to go, this didn't accomplish anything" and I said "[---], I don't think I want to date anymore." We talked for an hour, with her apologizing, saying she trusts me, saying it shouldn't matter, etc. To which I basically replied, we've been doing this for four months, it hurts more and more each time, I felt attacked this time when I didn't do anything wrong whatsoever, I've showed you I love you and made a big effort, and so far nothing really has helped. I've tried to be by your side throughout all this, but until you figure this out, I can't handle it anymore, especially when I'll be moving in a semester and will be halfway across the country. My (now ex) GF tried calling back a few more hours, asking me to reconsider, asking me to consider that it was Christmas, not to ruin her brother's plans (we were supposed to go to Orlando together for her birthday and New Years).

Okay, that was entirely longer than I thought it would be. Again, an awful lot of stuff, so I'm not sure how many people will read this. It all just hurts right now, and has hurt all week, especially around the holidays and especially since we should have been together right now I've been talking to people all week, to get perspectives and understand this. Sometimes I feel like it was a good decision -- 4 months of fighting definitely took its toll, and the hope I had that we were getting better had been damaged by those two days of fighting. On the other hand, sometimes I feel bad -- maybe she was and we were getting better? Maybe if she had just gotten over Sarah we would have been perfectly fine. Maybe more time would have helped. If I really loved her I would have stayed with her. Etc. I feel like an asshole and I feel guilty for my decision, sometimes, because of those type of thoughts -- and because I didn't forgive her when she asked on Christmas morning, after I told her I didn't want to date anymore.

Again, I'm not really looking for any particular type of response...I'm just kind of throwing this out there since it had been a running thing and some of you might have been interested in the outcome. I've heard opinions that support my side as well as those that support hers -- that this dance was too much, that I should have known better than to ask, that the history with Sarah was too much to get over so fast. I guess it came down to a matter of arguing about different things an not realizing it: I was upset she didn't trust me, she was upset that I wasn't more sensitive. She felt that the history of this issue hadn't changed; I felt that the fights kept hurting more and more. I still feel like she didn't understand what I had been telling her both days -- that Sarah was just a friend, that nothing was going on, that I love her (my GF), that I wasn't out trying to find "someone better" but was trying to make us work. I don't know. All so frustrating, because I really felt I tried to handle things well and had been trying to make my GF feel so much better after all the prior issues only to revert to the same fighting.

So that is that for now, I guess. I don't think there will be any going back on this from either of us, at least not for a while. Some questions I guess I have are just general relationship things for peoples consideration. Do you think that there are limits or thresholds for these types of things even if you love the person? I mean, marriage, maybe not, but dating? How sensitive should you be to these types of issues? Completely submissive? Compromising, ideally, I know...but was I so insensitive to think that I should be able to go with my friend? If you love someone, should you persevere until marriage through all challenges? Should it be acceptable to wonder, periodically, even when you love your SO and when you are focusing on your relationship with them (ie, I wondered about Sarah, but obviously had not done anything about it)? Do these issues generally go away -- is it age or experiences? I guess I at least have learned a lot from both sides of this situation (I've written probably 70 pages of thoughts in a week -- emotional venting and reflection). Maybe others can learn too.

Ok, I will stop there. Thanks for reading if you read it. There's more details, I guess, but that's the basic story of the last month or so. Take it all for whatever it is worth...

Sim

PS: Sarah had called to ask me to lunch over Thanksgiving when my GF was with me, but we (Sarah and I) both thought that would be bad. However, Sarah called back in the morning to suggest that my GF come too; that it'd be good for us. I unfortunately missed the call because my phone was off. I told my GF, and she thought it was a nice gesture. Later, she said that Sarah might have just been trying to look good and make her (my GF) look bad. Anyway, because of whatever circumstances and sensitivities, my GF did not get a chance to meet Sarah. It might have helped a lot -- put a face to a name; clear up some negative vibes. Conversely, it might have only made her more sensitive to "competition". I'd think the former, but who knows?

/Oh, if you want the more complete back story, here are different threads (from each of us), in chronological order:

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=94191
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=96151
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=97553

tenchi069

If your girlfriend cannot be mature enough to accept you have female friends, then move on.

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SERPENT7

I agree with tenchi.
My wife knows i have female friends. It took awhile for her to used to the fact that i do not gender discriminate when it comes to people just because i am married.
besides, who is she to tell me who i can or cannot associate with anyway?

I am pretty close with my friendgirl, but the only time she (wife) gets jealous is when we spend too much time together away from the house. Or sometimes she gets aggravated cuz i want to do stuff with the FG, when my wife is feeling low social. If i leave, then she feels 'left out'. it is sometimes a no win situation.

I guess my point is that these issues do come up, but if your SO is a rational adult, it is not very often. If she trusts you, it is short lived.

fyrehair

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Cynthetiq

she has issues, if Sarah is to be a lifelong friend of yours... well, then she has to accept it or move on.

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simivin

Thanks for the comments thus far. It sucks, it hurts, and I miss her -- and I was the one who made the decision. Her side has merit, too, I know; I realize that it is tough to know that your SO has doubts at times and I made the "mistake" of being honest when asked about Sarah. I wouldn't take back that honesty, because integrity is very important to me, but I know that that contributed greatly to our problems. Bummer of a deal, and I feel crummy about the timing (Christmas and holidays) and the changing of our plans, in addition to the void I feel. Damn.

Very true...I felt like I was in between a rock and a hard place so much of the time, when really I just wanted to be nice and take care of two people who were important to me. I knew who I was loyal to -- hanging out or going to a company dance would not have changed that.

Mantus

Sounds like a wise to choice to break it off.

I think you got back together prematurely. Expecting things to change when the circumstances remained exactly the same.

simivin

Agreed. But at the time I thought "hey, I hung out with Sarah for a night and nothing happened. My GF and I have that under our belt (and got over that obstacle), so maybe things will change." That and the fact that I thought I reacted too quickly and hadn't given my GF enough time to show that she could get over it.

That is also a reason why I tried to be resolute in my decision last weekend -- because I didn't know how she could internalize what I had been trying to say in a matter of a day/days. I told her that if I knew things would be different, I would be willing to date again.

uptown

Seems to me that she's better off without you. I would not be happy hearing that a man in a committed relationship with me spent the nite at another chic's place baring accident or serious situation.

simivin

She very well could be better off without me. I obviously wasn't acting in accordance with what she wanted, I guess. But why should spending the night at another girl's place (especially when it wouldn't be good to drive home), and sleeping on the floor, be that terrible? There was no way I would do anything, and having known my friend for 6 years, I trusted her too. Is just the idea of sleeping at another girl's place a violation of a committed relationship?

Am I just a dense guy in this case, to think that I was acting ok? Did I just not understand the meaning behind a committed relationship?

Sultana

I think it's likely just better for both of you guys. Sometimes folks just can't get past jealousy, and sometimes theres a reason for it.

Sounds like a situation that was not going to be resolved to either person's satisfaction, despite the reasonable amount of time given on both sides to resolve it.

Would like to mention that that the GF in question did post her side of events in the Ladies Lounge some time ago, and I can see her side of it too. Hard, all the way around. Not as cut and dried as some might think.

You tried, it didn't work, yes. Time to stop the hurting and move on. Never easy to do, though.

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"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath.
At night, the ice weasels come." -

Matt Groening

My goal? To fulfill my potential.

Impetuous1

I hate to say it but I think you weren't sensitive enough to her uncomfortableness. You knew she was upset that you viewed Sarah as a "what if" and you decided to sleep over at her place and then hide it from your girlfriend. What did you think was going to happen? You should have consulted your girlfriend first.

simivin

It wasn't hiding about the sleeping bit. She knew about the time I hung out with Sarah in November, and knew all the details of that; it was not about hiding anything. Plus, I called her first thing in the morning. She was initially upset I hung out with Sarah at all this time because it seemed sketchy. As I said, things degenerated from there to where the dance-thing became the big issue.

Yes, I think I may not have been sensitive enough -- I knew she was uncomfortable, but we had talked about this so many times before and so far nothing could moderate her worries. I don't know -- I really hoped she knew me better than to think that I would do anything wrong with Sarah. As for consulting her about hanging out, I didn't even really think about that -- I was just trying to prevent her from worrying more overnight.

Perceptions are a bitch sometimes.

*Nikki*

I do think I understand how your GF felt in this situation. I don't think it's cool to spend the night with another female either. Even if nothing happened. I don't know of any females that I am friends with who would be cool with that either. Having a female friend is one thing, having one seperate from your relationship and crashing at her house is another thing.
Sounds to me like you are reassuring your GF and yourself that there is nothing between you and this Sarah chic just a little to much. Perhaps you are not being honest with yourself??

simivin

Maybe not, and I've considered that too. However, I don't know if things will even go anywhere with my friend. I really would just like to maintain the friendship we've had, at least for a while -- and I would put some serious thought into whether or not I would even take it to the next level.

As it stands right now, nothing will probably happen with Sarah. Just my guess about feelings, sensitivity to everything, circumstances, etc. Considering I'm four hours away and at grad school, I will probably invest my time closer to me. Ironic, to some degree, that Sarah might always remain a "what if" even after all of this -- but I was willing to accept that anyway.

cheerycheeks

As the girlfriend in this situation, I also appreciate your input.

The only thing Sim has failed to mention is that I told him before Christmas and visiting DC that i wanted to meet Sarah. I was in DC with Sim for a week and there was no mention of Sarah or meeting up with her (following advice given on the TFP). The day after I leave DC is the day that Sim meets up with Sarah at the bar and spends the night at her house. I understand that Sim didn't want to upset me about Sarah, but I had told him that i wanted to meet her and was willing to do so. Another mistake on both of our parts, i suppose.

Sim, I felt that leaving that out was an injustice to me. I was trying to do what was right, but mirroring how you felt, it just wasn't good enough.

I wish you the best of luck with Sarah and others as you strive to find what you're looking for in a relationship. I will always love you and wish you all the best.

-Cheery

Mantus

As Chris Rock so eloquently put it,

Ladies, if you've never met your man's friends, you ain't his girlfriend.

ShaniFaye

I have a male friend...as I think I talked about in the other thread, or somewhere here....he and I have been best friends since I was 17 (thats 20 years) when we were in our late teens there was an attempt at "dating" it didnt work, we were WAY better friends..... we've gone out of town together, shared hotel rooms, crashed at each others places....yes while I was married to my first hubby AND since I've been with Dave. The first January Dave and I were together he was out of town working and Mark accompined me to my company christmas party (we have them in january instead of december) as my escort...Im so glad the men in my life never gave me grief over this because it would have caused some serious problems in the "trust" department for me.

Men and woman CAN be just friends....

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cheerycheeks

Shani- I'm glad to see that you and your husband had such an easy time keeping your relationship and each other's friendships seperate and the feelings that go with it. I hope to have a relationship like that too. Thanks for the story....and i agree that men and woman definitely can be just friends!

and Mantus, I've never heard that, but needless to say, I agree!

skier

Short, but sweet. heh great post


While I believe you screwed up a little here (instead of covering up the situation with sarah, you should have been upfront about it) your girlfriend really does have a trust issue. You shouldn't have to end a great friendship to be with her, and she should understand why you want to spend time with sarah.

You've given her no base for her insecurities to stand on, but she still doesn't trust you around her. I think your decision was the right one. Have faith in yourself and stick to your decision

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simivin

Yeah Mantus, I can see the soundness of that statement -- I really regret not introducing Cheery to any of my old high school friends (even though she met many of undergrad/grad friends who were much closer by), especially Sarah. How I wish that would have worked out differently -- that we had gotten Sarah's phone call over break asking us to lunch, or that Cheery had had a car earlier, or whatever. What I wouldn't give to do just that much more for you and us. I won't go into great detail about the meeting Sarah situation, but from my end, I had very mixed messages over time, not to mention a fear of even mentioning Sarah's name; furthermore, while I accept it as my failure, the reality is that either of us could have brought up meeting Sarah at any time we were in DC -- unfortunately, I'm not sure I thought about that, specifically, in the week before Cheery left. And as for (spontaneously) hanging out with her that night, that is what perhaps hurt the most: that Cheery so quickly accused (or that's how it felt) me of being sketchy. I am one of the least sketchy and most honest people I know, and am widely considered a very honorable person. Any "sketchiness" is just unfortunate naivete, or innocence, or trying to do something right that goes wrong.

Interestingly enough, my dad had a very good point. What was the rush? Time would have worked things out and Cheery could/would have eventually met Sarah. Furthermore, when I move across the country after grad school (and Sarah will be moving soon too), we wouldn't see each other hardly at all, so there is even less interaction. If Cheery and I had been patient, and avoided such painful fights about someone, things could have been so much better.

Me too, me too. But why was it ok for many of your friends to be guys, but my one good friendgirl be such a problem? Because of feelings or wondering? Because you didn't trust her? I didn't have to trust any of your guyfriends, but I did trust you. As for Sarah -- I trust her, and almost certainly would have ended the friendship if she violated that trust; furthermore, if she manipulated me, I would feel like a douche and break off the friendship as well. I will ask one specific question, too all readers, in regards to this. People agree that men and women can be just friends. If you wonder periodically or have fading questions, does that mean you are not just friends, especially when you have not and will not do anything while in a relationship? Or does that intrinsically violate the "friendship" level? Just curious what folks would think. Obviously, if wondering means you aren't just friends, then I guess Sarah and I weren't just friends; however, if the opposite applies, then we were.

As for Sarah, who knows what is up with that -- I'm playing it by ear. Ironically, I haven't even decided whether or not I will go to this company event -- it's almost too weird right now (that's the irony -- that it would have made me feel less weird while I was dating Cheery). Even if I do go, or do see her (I haven't really seen or talked to her for 3 weeks), I'm not sure it will go anywhere A) because I'm still upset and thinking about Cheery and B) because my confidence, and confidence in my relationship abilities, is low C) because the thought kind of weirds me out at this point D) because I don't know if I want to risk the friendship, which due to A and B, is a very real possibility. Or, maybe it would be good -- maybe she's right for me, or at the very least this same problem could be avoided in the future. Who knows...but I think it discredits me to think that I just wanted to run off and date this girl. I am much more grounded and logical than that.

Really, in retrospect, I should have just done what Cheery wanted -- about the dance, about everything. I regret that we both got so upset about things and failed to look at the situation and understand that it was something that could have been resolved without such emotional trauma over so much time (if you go all the way back to September). I realize that many girls would not have handled the dance question well, so Cheery's reaction wasn't an abberation -- I wish I had thought about it and not been such a stubborn guy, thinking it was no big deal. I have been beating myself up about it non-stop since. I can't take it back, now, but at least I have learned much from this...about myself, about girls, and about relationships...as much of a consolation as that may be, at this point.

Thank you to all the posters -- I (and I'm sure Cheery) appreciate the honesty of the responses. If there are any more thoughts, please keep them coming.

Thanks,
Sim

And yes Cheery /I don't want this to seem like Cheery and I are arguing on this forum -- I think that each of us sharing our sides and our perspectives helps complete the story, which is only right and fair. Ultimately, I think, it also shows the degree of misunderstanding about how/why each other was thinking and feeling. That -- more than Sarah -- might have been the underlying deminse of our relationship.

Toaster126

Hahahaha, didn't you know that when she said you could go, you were supposed to fire back the "But I don't want to go honey."?

Seriously though, jealousy\trust issues take time to work on. Sometimes they can be overcome with communication. Sometimes they can't. If they can't, the relationship is pretty fubar'd and should be terminated.

Hopefully you two learned some life lessons here - you should be more honest about the situations as they come up when you know your partner is concerned about them, and she should realize that when you make someone choose between a friend and them (especially because of jealousy), sometimes the choice isn't them.

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simivin

Haha, yeah, now I see that -- after the situation and after talking to some friends ("you fell victim to one of the classic blunders!" Princess Bride). But then again, I wouldn't have been honest, which isn't how I fly (call me Kantian, to some degree). Guess I'm just not good at that, although it sucks when your honesty gets you in trouble; maybe I just need to find a good equilibrium or something. Really, that just confused the hell out of me because I was happy and proud and kinda thought, "yes, way to go Cheery, we're finally getting over this" only to see otherwise.

I don't know how I could have been more honest about the situations as they came up...what do you mean? If you mean quicker to bring them up, or to bring them up in person, definitely. But the only thing I tried to do was delay talking about things so Cheery would be less upset and wouldn't fret about Sarah over Christmas vacation.

Word on the learning...

Poppinjay

So, honestly, how do you feel about Sarah, what's the first thing that comes to mind when you think of her? Are you sure you haven't made yourself out to be a bit of a martyr when there is a real attraction for you and a threat to your GF? Sarah's older, you're older. Believe it or not, there's a world of difference between the ages of 19 and 23.

You've apparently acted admirably, but have you acted honestly?

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abaya

Sim, I'm just back from Lebanon after many weeks and catching up here... man, from the perspective of meeting my man's friends, it meant so much to meet them in his home country. I feel like I know him so much better now, and have a far better understanding of his social needs.

Well, I'm sorry to hear that things didn't work out for you, but it sounds like you two were eventually incompatible, at least at this time in your lives.

Continue being honest with whomever you are dating... as honest as possible, in a loving way. It's their responsibility how they will react to your honesty, but if you are honest, then you are above fault.

I think it's important for you to work on being honest with your SELF, though, right now. Your gf is out of your life, for good or bad. Now just work on you and what you want, including what kind of gf you want in the future. It sounds like whoever she is, she will have to embrace Sarah, since you are not willing to change that friendship.

Okay enough advice for now. Good luck.

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for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
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Sultana

I still do not understand why, if this was such a huge issue, why wasn't heaven and earth moved for these two ladies to get together.
I can understand the OP's points on everything but that. I am a secure female, and if I had not met a female who was Such Good Friends with my SO and spent So Much Time with my SO after All This Time, I would totally be pissed and suspicious, no matter what.
The End.

And yes, there is a tremendous difference between 19 and 23. There just is.

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"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath.
At night, the ice weasels come." -

Matt Groening

My goal? To fulfill my potential.

simivin

Poppinjay, that's a good question. Really, I don't know the answer right now. I see her as confident and mature and attractive' sometimes I think that things could be great, sometimes I don't want to risk the friendship, sometimes I think it's all too weird, sometimes I feel like avoiding that altogether. Is there an "attraction"? Sure, on some level -- but I'm not sure what level that is. Was it a threat to Cheery? I don't think so, because I didn't want to act on any of that and preferred my relationship with her; whatever attraction there was ultimately didn't matter that much. Do I love Sarah? I think so -- but romantically, or as a friend, or as a sister, I don't know. Guess that is my fault for not figuring that out before or leaving that as a lingering question. However, I still love one of my exes, in some sense -- so to me it wasn't that big a deal...you can love more than one person and people in different ways. As for age, I saw that and recognized it; however, I also recognized that 19 would become 23 over time eventually, so I tried to keep it in perspective. The experiences and "maturity" that Sarah had by being 3 years older would almost certainly come with time.

As for the honesty bit, I agree, it is possible I have not been honest with myself. I think a lot and maybe convolute relationship issues for myself. By staying with Cheery and keeping Sarah as a friend, I was doing what I consciously wanted. Maybe that was right, maybe it was wrong. Sometimes I wonder if I've just been leading myself on or forcing things, but other times, I was confident I wasn't. I could see things working out with Sarah and going "well, guess I was leading myself on"; but I can see things being awkward or wrong or unsucessful, too. Guess some introspection is necessary -- or at least some relaxation and "going with the flow." Maybe Cheery is right, that I don't know what I want...I'm sorry she had to be caught up in it, if that's truly the case.


I know, Sultana, I know. To clarify that part of things in greater detail, from my perspective (Cheery might have things to add, if she wants), here are some events that might be relevant:

- Their first interaction was over IM at the end of August. I sent Cheery some of an IM conversation so she didn't think I was going behind her back with anything (there's another thread about this whole debacle). Cheery apparently IMed Sarah and asked "Do you love him? Do you fucking love him?" Sarah didn't respond...and later was like, I don't know if I would ever want to meet Cheery after that. She changed her mind later, after some time had passed, though.
- At one point around October or November, I was planning on setting a meeting up over T-giving or Christmas. For whatever reason (I can't remember) Cheery said she never wanted to meet Sarah at all.
- Over Thanksgiving break, Sarah called and asked if I wanted to go to lunch, but we decided no because that would bother Cheery. The next morning, Sarah called back and said, hey, it'd be good for Cheery to come along. Unfortunately, I had my phone off and missed the call and Cheery and I left the next day. I told Cheery and Cheery thought that was nice; however, later, she said that Sarah was just trying to make herself look good and make Cheery look bad.
- At some point (can't remember the chronology), Cheery said that she'd meet Sarah as long as I loved her. Otherwise it wasn't worth her time or the effort of doing that. For a while, I wondered if my telling her I loved her was good enough yet. It would have been alright, knowing what I know now.
- Over Christmas break, the week we were together, Cheery and I just spent time together. I talked to Sarah hardly at all for two weeks -- and I was preoccupied with thinking about the stupid dance thing and don't remember specifically thinking about the fact that "hey, it'd be great to get the two of them together". I should have, because it would have been.
- Other things that played a factor:
-- Cheery didn't have a car yet, so to visit Sarah (excluding T-giving and Christmas), I would have to drive 4 hours to pick up Cheery, drive 4 hours to visit Sarah, drive 4 hours to drop Cheery off, and drive 4 hours home. To me it seemed like a lot to do in on weekend. In retrospect, it ultimately would have been worth it, I think.
-- I was a wimp, in some sense, and therefore a little more tentative, because I was afraid that meeting would just have two girls bristeling at one another, especially after 3-4 months of this. This wasn't a reason for not meeting, but was in the back of my mind.
-- It didn't help that Cheery hated Sarah and called her a bitch...it made me more sensitive about them meeting.
-- When Cheery and I talked around Christmas, I didn't want her coming out the weekend of the company event, because I felt I was being chaperoned. Suspicious? I guess it could be, but it was more emotion and frustration talking, at that point. I proposed we go out a week earlier (would have been this upcoming weekend) and I would set something up then. For whatever reason, that wasn't good enough.

So, I think that's most of the details, Sultana. In light of it, though, all I have to say is "no excuse". I should have just sacked up and brought the two of them together a long time ago, rather than just fall on my heels and hope things took care of themselves. I really should have made whatever sacrifices were necessary to bring the two of them together. Some bad timing, bad words, and poor choices. I'll accept that it was fundamentally my fault. And I will not make the same mistake again.

There're some more thoughts. Comments?

Sim

PS: Oh, and welcome back, abaya! hope you had a great time on your trip -- sounds like it'd be great!

Poppinjay

I think cheery sounds like any normal 19 year old with some insecurity. As far as the IM's she sent, the things she said about Sarah, that's what 19 year olds do. That's part of the package and if you want to re-enter a relationship with her, remember you're going to have to ride out that period and follow the 19 year old rules. The scales won't even out until the age ratio gets to be 21-24 or so.

As far as the whole thing with Sarah, it sounds like emotional cheating. You don't sleep with her or date her, but there's this.... thing.

I think you still could have a future with Cheery, if that's what you want. Or dog around if you want, but stick to it. Don't straddle the fence.

__________________
I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

JustJess

^^ YES. Thanks, that's about spot on to what I would have said.

Emotional cheating - even now - is far more important to me than any booty could be. Perhaps Cheery is similar.

__________________
My heart knows me better than I know myself, so I'm gonna let it do all the talkin'.

simivin

Thanks poppinjay/justjess...I've heard of the topic of "emotional cheating"...but I'm not sure I really understand it. I mean, what counts as emotional cheating? What crosses that line? I'd like to hear your opinions, although I guess this is something that would have been better for Cheery and I to talk about ourselves.

I mean, Sarah and I were definitely close, no doubt about it. But I was still closer to Cheery, and didn't/don't feel comfortable telling Sarah some things; I can certainly feel the void and absence of Cheery, even with Sarah still as my friend. It's scary to me to imagine trying to develop the emotional intimacy that Cheery and I had with someone else, even Sarah. And in the time since Thanksgiving, I had really toned down the time I spent talking to Sarah -- in the course of a month we talked online about 5 or 6 times and only a couple times or not at all on the phone. Furthermore, when we'd be busy, that'd be it -- she was busy with work recently, we didn't talk for almost 2 weeks. I mean, I would turn to her for a good laugh, or good conversation, and sometimes support or an outlet, or would be a shoulder she could lean on when she was having problems, but Cheery was my go-to person. Did it make me happy to talk to Sarah? Yes it did, but isn't that a common attribute of friends anyway? And in any case, I have 0 good friends at my school right now, and had fallen out of close touch with many of my undergrad friends. Was there emotional intimacy with Sarah? Yes, to a good degree. But again, being friends for 6 years, that's bound to develop, and I admit I am an open and honest "talker". I don't know...thoughts on that, in relation to emotional cheating? Where is that line? If you're trying to be loyal to your SO, does that mean you can't go to someone else periodically, even if they are a girl/guy? Just curious because I'd like to have a better idea if I failed at this or how to do better...gracias

As for riding the fence, and in addition to all the thoughts I posted above on Sarah...after the first weekend in December (when I thought Cheery and I might be over Sarah, and had an awesome weekend), I felt great about our relationship...and for much of December, I felt so much better and confident about Cheery and I (minus the fear of the Sarah issue). In fact, when I saw Sarah before Christmas, it was all so much easier, so much more relaxed, and I was confident who I wanted to be (and was) with. Oh well...as for any reattempt in the near future, at this point I feel it would have to be initiated by Cheery and would have to consist of some good heart to hearts -- I think she knows that I accept whatever her decision is and that I'm not counting on anything.

abaya

Poppinjay already covered this, but I think your continual uncertainty about your relationship with Sarah is the root of most of went wrong in the relationship. Certainly, Cheery has her own insecurities to add to the issue, but... frankly, I think your inability to be honest with your own feelings (as you know) about Sarah drove Cheery to the point of complete insecurity, which caused you two to become incompatible. Had you and Cheery met 5-10 years down the road when she was more secure and when you'd have finally figured things out with Sarah... who knows, things might have worked out. But as it is, it's just the wrong time for you and Cheery. Too much damage has already been done.

Seriously though, I don't know how many women will be okay with you having such an emotionally undefined relationship with Sarah, in the future. If you KNEW WITHOUT QUESTION that you had 100% platonic feelings for her, and if your girlfriend KNEW that too, AND absolutely loved spending time with BOTH you and Sarah, together... well, I think you might be able to keep a relationship AND the Sarah friendship. But most women aren't okay with that.. (including me) since it comes down to the emotional cheating stuff. So you have to ask if your friendship with Sarah is worth it, at least at the current level of intensity that you have (or recently had).

Hope this wasn't hurtful, just trying to be honest and confront you on stuff (tried to say it earlier but ended up sounding vague).

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

simivin

Thanks abaya, and no, you weren't hurtful. I understand completely and think that is very accurate. I don't think anyone -- even Cheery -- understands how truly guilty and upset I have felt for the damage I have done to this relationship and how much hurt I have caused her. I am largely responsible for ruining what should have been a great relationship, and for hurting the beautiful person that Cheery is.

I would have given anything to have had things with Sarah figured out before-hand. I would give anything to figure things out with me before-hand. I would give anything to go back 10 months and see what our relationship would have been like before insecurity undermined our efforts from the beginning. I would give anything to go back three weeks, make different decisions about hanging out with Sarah (even though there was nothing there), and talk with Cheery about things in person -- and do things better or right. And was Sarah worth it? No. And I won't make that mistake again in the future. But you're right -- "too much damage has already been done." At least now Cheery can find someone without such baggage and who can give her what she deserves. What else is really left to say?

analog

Good quote, I agree.

The thing is, no one wants to ignore the opposite-sex friend, so it really is a matter of whether or not the maturity exists to handle it. That goes for guys and girls, both.

Impetuous1

Going back to your question about what is emotional cheating. I feel that it is the point at which someone outside of the relationship takes on a nearly equal or greater emotional importance than your significant other. Why is this threatening? Because in order to fully bond with someone, one of the criteria is that you understand each other to a great degree. If you are sharing your pains and joys of your life with someone other than your SO, this can cause an emotional deficit in your relationship. Pretty soon it feels like you're with a stranger who is not really there and who you're having sex with. Everything begins to feel cheap. I know this because I have been emotionally cheated on and it is not something I am willing to go through ever again. I need to know I am the one my SO runs to when they have problems. I also need to know that they are there for me when I need someone to talk to. Is this selfish? Yes it is. But in the end, I think the goal is to create a bond that no one can interfere with. I think that the nature of women and men make it very hard to be friends to a great degree if there is any attraction at all and an emotional attachment. Why? Because that's part of how you define a relationship between you and your SO. Attraction and emotional attachment comes first, then later the sexual dimension comes into play.

abaya

Very well put. Creating a relationship means creating and maintaining that bond exclusively... at least as much as both people are comfortable with. (Unless you are in an open one, but that's a different ballgame.) But it still comes down to that essential bond, no matter what exterior players come into the picture.

If those other people threaten the bond... (from either partner's side) well, both partners have to discuss and agree on what is appropriate in terms of "emotional cheating," just as they would agree on what constitutes physical cheating. If there is discomfort for one person and not the other, then it comes down to choosing the relationship itself vs. relationships with the outside people. Depends on priorities, I guess. And it's a shitty lesson to learn, with hindsight, that your priorities might have been wrong.

I'm sorry, Sim.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

simivin

Thanks, Impetuous, for getting back to me with that. It helps me have a different perspective about things and what I can do better with in the future.

I'm not sure I completely agree, though. I understand and agree with having your SO be the one your go-to person, and to always be there for your SO. But I don't think sharing your pains and joys with someone else necessarily induces an emotional deficit in the relationship, provided, of course, that your SO is still the one you lean on most and that you can or do tell them the same things. Sometimes I think it's important to have other people you can go to and can talk about things with just as I think it's important to find happiness in others, too -- otherwise, there is the risk of being too dependent on one another or not having individual space. Maybe that's the right thing or the intent of relationships, though...as this thread shows, I'm obviously not the expert in that area.

With Sarah and I, it wasn't a "run to tell her first" sort of thing. Sure, she could count on me as a steadfast friend, just like I (kind of) look to her the same way...but I went to Cheery ahead of everyone, including my parents; she knew more about me -- more intimate, emotional details -- than anyone, even Sarah. Was this always the case? There are probably exceptions -- but I can't remember anything in the last 4 or 5 months that would apply. There was pleasure in talking to Sarah, but that was generally derived from A) the fact that our conversations were mostly light-hearted B) while I supported her as her friend, I wasn't as emotionally involved as I was with Cheery, so I could keep my emotions out of it much easier and C) we talked on and off depending on our schedules, so neither of us felt there was a problem if time went by without talking. Of course our conversations were generally happier -- I wasn't invested in Sarah like I was in Cheery. I saw this and understood this.

Was that all emotional cheating? I don't know. You might say yes -- and there might have been times it was. But overall, I don't think so -- although I feel guilty, at this point, that my friend could made me happy sometimes. Oh well. Like I said, though, I'm a talker. Sarah, another friend (guy or girl), it doesn't matter; for the most part, I'm just that open. I guess that's why saying something like, "you should come to me first" makes my desire to do so feel more like an obligation.

And maybe that was one of the differences between Cheery and I, separate from the topic of Sarah. I liked having my own space more than she did; it seemed like I valued independence while in the relationship a bit more, at least at this point. We had talked about it at times, and had tried to address it, but I'm not sure we ever reached a good, stable compromise.

simivin

I guess I thought it was good that I went to Cheery for things first, that I was always there for her, that I was (at least so I thought) loyal and faithful, that I was more intimate (emotionally, physically, etc) with her, that I always knew I was with her and trying to work on us, and that I chose her over anyone else. Maybe in theory that's good, but in reality, maybe the extent wasn't good enough or didn't measure up to what a relationship should be.

As for the bond, the only time I felt that bond was lessened was, ironically, when we were fighting about Sarah; not because of Sarah so much as because of the hurt the fighting caused to our relationship. If you took out the months of fighting about my friend, Sarah would have been such a non-issue and I really think the "wondering" would have dissipated a long time ago.

You're right, Abaya, seeing in hindsight that my priorities might have been incorrect is upsetting. Seeing that what I gave wasn't good enough, or wasn't "right" is upsetting. Just as seeing, now, how I could possibly fix things, is upsetting. I guess it either means I'm not ready for the type of relationship Cheery offered, or my idea of a relationship differs in a way that makes us incompatible. I don't know. One way or the other -- it is certainly shitty.

Did I pick Sarah over Cheery? Cheery thinks so -- maybe you think so...and maybe all the evidence points to "yes." But in my heart of hearts, I didn't make the decision of Sarah over Cheery (or Sarah's desires over my GFs), I made it because for right or wrong, I felt that Cheery wasn't trusting me and that I couldn't handle this extent of fighting when all of our prior fighting had hurt more and more. Would I go and change it and acquiesce to Cheery's wants and needs? Would I completely change my friendship with Sarah? Absolutely, but that is after sitting here right now, distanced from the 4 months of fighting, and with three weeks of reflection under my belt. Who knows if this was an isolated incident, an abberation because of a unique element (Sarah), or if even without Sarah we might still have had problems. I don't know -- but I wish with all my heart that I could have seen. And I guess that, to me, is where the greatest regret comes in.

Impetuous1

I don't think that your wanting more freedom in the relationship and cheery wanting more closeness in the relationship was wrong.

As I stated before, I was emotionally cheated on and am still with the same man. While it destroyed the relationship for a while and caused distrust on both sides--long story--we managed to work through it. But, it took a long time to get back to a good place. Sometimes there's relapses but it gets less frequent with time. It took lots of additional fighting, examining every aspect from every possible angle and both perspectives. Was it worth it? Yes. Would I ever be willing to work through something like that again? Hell no. However, as pointed out before this experience for us was a shitty lesson in learning who we are and where we draw the line. In our case though, it wasn't a really good friend. Just someone he knew for about a year. Our solution was that we cut her our of our lives.

In your case however, I have to agree that since you knew Sarah for so long that you shouldn't have had to cut her out of your life in order to enjoy a good relationship with cheery. But, as other people have pointed out, cheery should have met her from the get go. Especially after you realized cheery was going to be a big part of your life. I'm really sorry that you had to learn this lesson in this way. The lesson that people define relationships in different ways and that sometimes you have to sit down and talk about it. The lesson that sometimes one of you has to be willing to compromise a lot more than you thought or end the relationship because your values are completely opposite. It's a hard lesson to learn.

p.s. Not sure if everything I just said makes sense so excuse me if it doesn't. I'm really tired and sort of depressed now with all the crappy memories and feelings this thread has brought up.

simivin

Thanks again, Impetuous. There's a lot of helpful things in there. I thought that cutting back talking with Sarah was a good compromise, but it was overshadowed by hanging out with her and the dance-thing. I, too, agree with what everyone has said on here about having the two of them meet; I wish I had, and wish I had been much more proactive about it a long time ago. Now that I think about it, there was an opportunity before school started (when Cheery was with me in DC) that would have been great. I really had no idea it would be such a big issue. Little did I know then; much more do I know now. Oh well...it does suck to learn it now, but I guess I have at least learned a lot.

Sim

PS: sorry this brought up so many bad memories ... hopefully you feel happier soon!

kangaeru

Sim...

...you are way too ambiguous. You talk like sorting things out with Sarah wasn't something that's in your control, like it's up to some mystical force to decide when things will magically sort themselves out. If you REALLY loved Cheery, and you wanted to try to make it work, you would have made a meeting between her and Sarah happen, but you never did for fear of shit hitting the fan. Or hadn't you heard, love is only a word, the act of love is sacrificing for those we care about.

I really don't want to be mean here, and I'm not trying to flame you, but honestly your behavior disgusts me-- 'oh, I feel so bad, I fucked all this up, I wish it would have worked out'. And, directly quoting you, "At least now Cheery can find someone without such baggage and who can give her what she deserves. What else is really left to say?" Dude, what are you a piece of drift wood? You control your life, and the fact that you have chosen to wallow in your self perceived powerlessness is just pathetic.

You just lost a presumably great girl who loved you a lot because you couldn't be a man. You wanted her to trust you? How is she going to do that when she goes to DC to see you for a week, and the DAY AFTER SHE LEAVES you go and visit this girl? Like I said before, if you really wanted to make this work, you would have made a meeting happen, for better or for worse, because it was crucial to the survival of your relationship. She didn't trust you? You are a hypocrite because you didn't trust her either, as evidenced by your ACTIONS. Talk is cheap and words are wind. You know deep down what you want, so be honest about it and go out and get it. Get Sarah, or don't get her--make the choice, and live with it. Don't leave any questions left to ask when the case is finally closed, so you can be happy knowing it couldn't have turned out any other way.

But until you do that, you will never be happy without some kind of closure. This weird limbo you have Sarah in, combined with your inability to be decisive will ruin every one of your future relationships if you don't resolve this, and you will forever feel helplessly victimized by some nameless force.

If anything, I really hope you learn a lesson from this and recognize that ultimately leaving ambiguous open-ended relationships like this will haunt you your whole life, and the only way to put them to rest is to seize the day, live your life, and find out where that path goes, or perhaps, where it ends.

Surely knowing one way or the other will be more peaceful when you're an old gray man, without a future anymore, and nothing but a past to reflect on where you can either say 'I did everything I wanted to', rather than, 'what if I had done...'

I'm sorry if I've been mean, or offended you, but I hope you look past that and take my advice, because it's meant to help you in the end.

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