Abortion - is it murder? In response to...
 

I know the original question has been debated to death, but but I was reading the other thread "Abortion - she can't forget it"
I didnt want to thread jack, so if this is out of place just please delete it and PM me if I should ask the Q in the original thread.
In the thread there were comments such as:
"the baby would be born now"
"the baby would be one now"
Yada Yada Yada

I assume it would be hard not to think of such, but now since these thoughts are coming to you, do you think of it more as murder or not.

Im young and have always thought that if the chance happened that my GF accidently got pregnant we could get an abortion over adoption or keeping it. at this time.
I don't know if I woud be able to live w/ these thoughts in my mind and possibly thinking it's murder that I have done.
S

Yes...it has. However, since it seems to me that the main point that you're trying to make, is that the original thread may, or may not, have changed your previous convictions(?), I'll keep this potential fire bomb open...for now. Know all, and know now, that this thread WILL be actively and heavily monitored. So...play nice.

Being a parent...twice, and being pro-choice, I have to admit that some of the statements that you've referenced rattled, but did not collapse, my convictions. I find that the other thread holds a lot of value, in that it illustrates, rather heavily, that abortion is more than just a momentary decision. It's not akin to going to the doctor's office to have a boil lanced. It is a major life decision, and cannot be undone. It may be a one time trip to the clinic, but Mother's/Father's day comes every year. As I said...I'm still pro-choice. I just want people to make absolutely certain that they're making the right choice...for them.

We ceratnly won't reach a conclusion regarding the question in the topic. Personally, I'm pro choice and a guy, so it's kinda easier for me. As far as I can tell from my previous experiences, though, for most women an abortion is something that will stay in her conciousness forever, regardles of her live/religion/whatever viewpoint. It's the way we're constructed.

in a word, no.

i am pro-choice. and i do understand how some people might change their views based on those sorts of arguments. but personally, those are arguments i considered before declaring myself pro-choice.

i view comments like "the baby would be *whatever milestone* now" the same as i view any other thoughts about what might have been. i'm divorced, but i still sometimes think "wow, we'd have been together x years now." it doesn't mean divorce was the wrong decision, just that i know what would have happened (regarding that particular milestone) if i hadn't divorced. my sister mentioned this past spring that if she hadn't dropped out of school, she'd be graduating now.

i think most of us can look back at any decision that impacts our life and think of how our lives would be different if we'd made a different choice. if you are unhappy, it's easy to think that a different choice then would have resulted in future happiness. if you are happy, you might consider a different choice would have resulted in happiness or that it would have brought unhappiness and say you made the right decision.

i know women who've had abortions and i also know women who considered it and kept their children or put them up for adoption. women who have abortions aren't the only ones who wonder if they made the right choice regarding that decision.

i'm a cautious person and a firm believer in no regrets. any decision that might have long-term impact on my life, i consider very carefully and think about how i'll feel about my choice in 5, 10, 20, 50 years. sometimes that means i make choices that aren't really the "best" for me at the time, but they are the choices i know i can live with. to me, that's important. this is also a large chunk of why i am pro-choice. we each live with the choices we make in life. it isn't up to me to decide what is right or wrong for someone else because i'm not the one who has to live with the results of those decisions.

No.
I wrote a 6 page paper on how I am pro-choice.
In that paper I address the fact that it shouldn't be considered murder.

Wanna read it?
Go here: http://www.ageofinsanity.com/users/l...pro-choice.doc

Edit: Here is the part in my paper about how it is not murder:

Yes, I do consider it murder.

However, I also view it as really, really, really, really, really easily rationalizable in many cases. I simply don't react to it in the same way as other cases of murder because it seems clear to me that people can go in completely sure that it isn't murder or isn't killing, or completely sure that their case justifies it when it doesn't. And I also believe that one needn't be a bad person to find herself in that situation and mindset. Good people have abortions.

But yes, I do consider it an unjustified killing of a human being.

I also used this as a paper topic for a debate class and even after having had a child of my own, my opinion hasn't changed much...with one caveat.

I would support more restrictions on abortions in the third trimester.

At that point, the woman has had time to make her decision and the fetus is really becoming a baby.

But before then, no, it's not murder.

I think that the effects on the mother are under represented.

People die all the time without anybody caring - but if that person, foetus or whatever could have been your child - no matter how cold, heartless and uncaring a person you are, there are going to be days when you regret that decision. I think it would be very hard to find someone who has had an abortion who could honestly admit that they never think about what if, or occasionally regret the decision. Yes, it may have been on balance the right thing at the right time - but, there must always be some shred of doubt and regret. I don't know how well this is explained before the procedure, but it's not something I ever had explained to me as I was growing up.

I think that sometimes we focus on the morality too much and forget about the feelings of the people involved.

Is it MURDER? No - because it's not defined as such in our laws.

Is it killing a human being? Yes, in my opinion.

However...I am one of those who believes that, while *I* don't believe in abortion, I have NO right to impose my beliefs on others.

It's a medical procedure, and should be made available for those who wish to have the procedure in a safe & controlled manner.

Guys, I really don't think this is a Tilted Sexuality topic... Maybe it's just me, but I think it belongs elsewhere.

Yeah, I think this goes in Philosophy, personally.

Not murder by any means. I am heavily pro-choice. And I would be able to sleep at night without worries if the girl I impregnated got an abortion. However, I would not be the one getting an bortion, so I cannot speak for the woman going under this procedure and will not ever make anyone undergo abortion against their will.

I'd say that it is, but I also think bringing a child into this world that wasn't wanted is a really fucked up thing to do. I know a girl that was adopted when she was a baby and she has some serious issues because of it.

I would never wish an abortion on anyone, I'd never want my girl to have one, but I am still pro-choice.

I think I get it.
People that have had abortions (personally I think the guy and the girl get the abortion, but that is a whole other debate) are going to think about the what ifs.
If my GF got pregnant, and we ended up having the child, I would probably have to drop out of college and join the military or work in the oil rigs in order to afford it. If that were to happen, I guess I would definately think "I would be graduating right now."
So like has been said: you think these things on every life decision you make.

I guess I didn't need a WHOLE thread dedicated to this, but didn't want to change the topic of the original topic.
Also I put this thread in sexuality because that is where the original thread is, and didn't put any thought into where it shoud be.

Exactly right, Temporary_User. At 43 years of age, I can look back at countless crossroads and turning points in my life. I could easily second guess myself into insanity. But, at the end of the day, for better or for worse, the decisions that I have made over the past 43 years are the ones that have shaped me into what I am today. Regrets? Some. But I don't really believe that I'd change a thing, given that option. I am pretty comforable in who I am, and the only problem that I have looking that guy in the mirror in the eye every morning when I shave is...where the hell did those crowsfeet come from?

Oh...and I considered moving the post last night, but opted against it because the question that you posed is a direct consequence of our sexuality. There's more to it than the quest for the ultimate orgasm.

No its not.

For people who are prolife think about it this way. If the people who have had sex, and knew that they are unable to care or do not want a child, become pregnant do you honestly want more of those people running around on this planet? People who dont think before they act, people who find it easier to get rid of the problem instead of dealing with it, immature people who dont have the maturity to handle the situation that their own stupidity put them in. I know I dont want more people like that kicking around.

CRX Forum

I think you are giving reasons why you feel abortion is justified, but are not really saying if you think it is actually MURDER or not. I think it would be best for people to decide for themselves if it IS murder before they decide to go the abortion route. If the conclusion reached is that is IS murder, then you should not get an abortion. This is even if the child would cause hardship... it may be seen justifiable as a "mercy abortion" but if you believe it is murder then it is no different from killing homeless people or the retarded or people arrested for anything.

To be fair, this all hinges on if it is actually murder or not... I am uncertain of this myself, but am giving it the benefit of the doubt so that I would not suggest to anyone that I get pregnant to get an abortion.

No Abortion is not Murder. I have mixed opinions on it, but I lean more towards pro-choice. This subject gets pretty heated sometimes. Yowsa.

Why do people think the options are 'have kid ruin life' or 'have abortion'.

Does everyone forget about adoption?

As a kid my family used to take in pregnant teenagers so they could have their baby without the sigma of teen pregnancy can have in some communities. The girls then gave the babies up for adoption. No life was ruined by taking a 9 month break from a social life (they still did class work).

Is the concept of adoption now outdated?

I have a rather outlandish view of the case:
I'm pro-choice. So pro-choice in fact, that I support abortion all the way up until the point of birth.

Why? Well, I see no reason why a line should be drawn at any point in time during pregnancy. To me, saying "you can't have an abortion past X days" is just a way of making it easier for people to justify their decision. "Oh, well, it's ok if I do it before this point in time." It also quells the pro-life argument somewhat, as there are cases where abortion is still illegal.

As far as the science end of thing goes- where do you draw the line? When brain waves are present? When the fetus 'looks' like a baby? These really make no difference to either side of the argument- these small features are just rungs on a ladder for those in the middle. How high you go is your tolerence level. I guess I just have high tolerence.

I also don't think it's murder at all. What do fetuses have to live for? Their only value is the hopes and dreams that other individuals project onto them. If other individuals put no stake in such things, then the fetus has no value. The argument that the fetus is a "potential" human life is irrelivant. In my experience, the only realm where "potential gains" can be used to justify an action is in economics. And while it'd be interesting to hear what Baby-Food manufacturers have to say about abortion I think economics are far from the debate.

Just out of interest Robaggio, why do you draw the line there? What's so special about birth that it becomes the cut-off point? And if the line can be moved from there, then how far would your tolerance stretch post birth?

Well, for the sake of argument, I put the line there because once birth happens, pregnancy has ended and can't be aborted. :)

I don't know where my tolerence would be post-birth. I don't know enough information to justify one thing over another. If I had to say something off the top of my head though, I'd say that I'd have no tolerence post-birth. Each baby has its own distinct personality I'm told. That could be justification for existence.

My reasoning for the issue as a whole is that abortion is part of human nature. It is definatly not a recent phenomenon. Early human societies practiced infanticide as a method of self-preservation. In rough times, another mouth to feed was perhaps too much of a burden and thus lives were taken. Abortion is no different. It's merely a more prempative and efficient method of the above. You could argue that our society today is perhaps more "civilized", but I disagree. In times of trouble us humans freak out just like any other animal. Civilization is but a very thin surface. Point being, while "because we're animals" isn't quite a good argument for abortion, "because we're civilized" isn't either.

Burdens nowadays aren't matters of life or death. But I think that the social burden is the same as life is more complicated.