zipper

Thats basically my situation. My wife wants to be w/another man sexually.

The question is...should I let her?

We have been married for 12.5yrs, we have a pretty solid relationship. We have 2 kids...7 and 9. In the past we have ventured out together...she first expressed interest in being w/a woman. So about 7 yrs ago we started swinging. Only girl/girl at first...but gradually up to "anything goes". We were always together...this was something we did together! Through out our marriage she has hurt me a few times...by being w/other men (she has never cheate though). We'll within the past couple months she has expressed that she wants to venture out on her own. I personally think her best friend (who is a major slut) is influencing this desire. I have always given my wife anything and everything she has ever wanted. I just don't think I can give her this......

Here are my concerns...

First I don't think I am emotionally ready for this

Secondly, I don't think this snowball effect will stop

We both really love each other...she loves (at least she says so), she just craves attention from other men.

PLEASE any advice is appreciated!

Thanks

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maleficent

Not that I know anything about open marriages first hand... there are other people plenty more qualified to discuss this...

but at the outset, from what you have said... if you aren't emotionally ready to do this... then you aren't ready and you and your wife need to sit down and talk about why you aren't ready... and what.. if anything.. it will take for you to be ready.


If you could clarify how she hurt you by being with other men, that would be helpful... Swinging is a mutual decision... was this when she was with other men? or at other times.

For an open marriage to work, I would imagine pretty clear ground rules need to be set up about what you will and won't allow to have happen. Are there any conditions where you would be ok with her being with another man?

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Ustwo

Ok lots of red flags here.

First it sounds like you are not too hot on swinging as it is. Swinging is NOT for everyone, and it sounds like you did it for her to start with. Even if thats not the case, if having sex with couples isn't 'enough' for her then it sounds pretty hopeless to me.

What kind of attention is she craving? Swinging should take care of the sex part, so does that mean love, romance, no worry about the kids, feeling desireable?

IMHO your only hope if you are not comfortable with an open marriage (and I don't blame you there) is to get communication going on how you feel, how this makes you feel, and WHY she thinks she needs this. If she indeed loves you she will back away from the abyss here, otherewise start getting the divorce papers ready.

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ngdawg

Marriage is hard enough. Bring another person into the equation and something's gotta give.
It would be great if marriage were like other relationships where we had different people in our lives to fill different needs, but hundreds of years of relationship evolution hasn't seemed to change the dynamics much.
Just as more than one of anything divides our attention, more than one lover will do the same.
The bottom line is, I suppose, the question of what are you and she willing to give up should she pursue 'outside interests'. And if your answer is 'nothing', then say so.

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toxic515

In a "swinging" or "open" relationship, it is of the utmost importance that the core relationship be solid, and that ANY outside activities be agreed upon mutually and without coersion. If you are not comfortable with this, it is vital that you be open and honest about it from start to finish. The marriage is a contract between the two of you, and is certainly open for addendums, ammendment, etc. but that requires mutual consent. Anything that breaks the contract without mutual consent is a breach of contract. Put another way: swinging is fine if you both agree, swinging is defined mutually by the two of you, as to what is agreeable, and what is not. Some swing only with partners in same room, some swing alone, etc. but you should try to ensure that things are kept within the bounds of mutual comfort... always.

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zipper

Ok...to answer what has been asked so far.

Yes when we were swinging...it was always mutual. I have a very high sex drive, I could never complain.

There were was one time when she let things get a little out of hand w/one couple....she started a relationship w/the other man. Other than that, we have had some great experiences swinging.

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james t kirk

Dude, your relationship is hardly conventional already.

The genie is not only out of the bottle, he is down the road, to the airport and on a plane bound for China.

She's at least telling you about.

My advise, let her have the other guy. Odd's are, it will just be sport sex. Why not tag along and watch?

Acetylene

I think your concerns are all valid and she should not act on her desires until she has alleviated ALL of those concerns, to YOUR satisfaction. She is the one who wants something extraordinary, so it is her responsibility to make it possible for you to allow it.

Personally? If I were you I would say NO WAY, not until the kids are out of the house. If this blows up in your face, you do NOT want your children going through a messy divorce, screaming matches, custody battles, and all that crap that comes when people betray each other... and having sex with another man, with you home alone, is a betrayal of your marriage even if you give her permission.

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lurkette

If you're not emotionally ready for her to be with another man on her own, the answer should be "no" until you are, which, it should be made clear, might never happen. You need to ask yourself if this is something you really want for her, and if you're willing to do what it takes, emotionally, to let her have it. And if it's worth the risk. And what it's likely to do to your relationship if you every do say "yes."

And if you do say yes, there need to be very clear ground rules. Who's allowed to do what with whom? Is it just sex or is she looking for a secondary partner? Are you allowed to have relationships with women outside the marriage? Does she have blanket permission or does she have to clear everything with you first? How much do you want to hear about her hookups? Make sure you think through things thoroughly before anything happens, and be sure you're both prepared to be flexible in dealing with each other's emotional needs.

Good luck!

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Johnny Rotten

I'm all for sexual freedom, living in San Francisco right above the Castro, and in the Castro before that, but what she wants sounds like it's crossing over from freedom to recklessness. My instinct tells me there's some damaged pathology deep inside her, with her craving "attention" from other men when you're not around, despite all it sounds like you do for her. She may become defensive or skittish if you really try to dig in and figure out what's going on inside her head, but I think things will only deteriorate if you two don't sit down and have a long talk. I hope you have no shocking revelations about her, but you can't let that fear hold you back.

Also, it's not quite clear to me how the situation has evolved. You were having sex with other women with her there, but then you say she hurt you by being with other men? What does "anything goes" mean in this context?

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twinkle

Either she respects your wishes, or she will have cheated and will have to face the consequences of that.

Some people are always starved for attention, no matter how much attention they get.

Anomaly_

It's pretty clear your wife craves chaos. "Swinging" and "open relationships" are just overly kind terms for people who have problems with intimacy and regulating impulses. If you aren't married and have no kids, these things are fine. But when kids are involved, it's time to grow up and be a responsible parent. I would go with your instinct about this being a bad idea and probably get some marriage counseling for the sake of the family.

wolf

There needs to be some balance here. Seems to me that she is getting all of the action and you are the one who is just along for the ride. What about what you want or what you need. Maybe there is some compromise here. Your wife cannot ask to take take take here and you give give give. That isn't going to work, eventually you will get drained and not want to give anymore. There is a real unfortunate consequence here. You can let her be with another man, or you can worry about whether or not she is doing it behind your back. I would recommend couples therapy. Is there something that she needs that she isn't getting from your relationship? You could be right that her best friend is influencing her, but this isn't a pair of shoes we're talking about, this is sex with another man. You said that she has hurt you in your marriage before by being with another man, what did you mean by that? Just hanging around another man? Kissing? What happened? This is a big step in any relationship and both parties have to feel 100% rock solid about their relationship before it can happen. Otherwise one person, namely you, is going to become extremely jealous, and that breeds hate. Talk with her see what you can work out, but make sure you are both 100% open and honest with eachother, or this will never work.

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lurkette

Judgmental often? I don't think any of the people involved in either my marriage or our 'extracurricular' relationships could be characterized as having problems with intimacy or impulse regulation. We've just found that monogamy is not the only or even the best option for us.

Since I'm in the married w/o kids category, I can't really reply to this from firsthand experience. However, I think there are at least a few members on this board, and a few people I know firsthand, who would disagree with this.

When handled responsibly (and that is the key, right there) I see no reason why open relationships shouldn't work, kids or no kids. The problem in this situation is that his wife has not acted responsibly in the past, and he has some reservations about her getting involved with other men without her. Those are both big red-flag dealbreakers in the world of healthy non-monogamy.

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cokelvr

"Pretty solid relationship" I question this as she says she wants another man. I know people swing but I wonder how solid anyof those really are either. Convienent yes solid i doubt it.

Just my 2 cents.

Ustwo

Did you get that from a dear Abby column? Its grossly wrong on many levels. You can't even really compare swinging to an open relationship as they are completely different types of arrangements. Most swingers want nothing to do with having an open relationship, and if you think the common thread is 'having sex with other people' it shows you have a gross misunderstanding of the motivations involved.

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Jinn

I know it was directed elsewhere.. but care to explain what the motivations are then?

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DEI37

I'm not sure I would call swinging and open relationships all that different. As swingers, yes, we don't want relationships beyond friendships with other couples, but OUR relationship is open, and in my thinking, that is where the term open relationships comes from. In that regards, they are similiar, with swinging being an extension of an open relationship.

On topic to the OP...this just doesn't sound like something 100% healthy to your marriage. If you've been a swinger already, then that does set the groundwork for playing alone. My wife and I don't play alone yet, but ours is based off of two things. Number one is her safety. She's capable, but if the guy has other guys without prior knowledge, or a deadly weapon, her chances are diminished pretty severely. Number two, we each get off on watching each other with others. In your case, mention idea #1 to her, and just say that you're concerned for her safety, and see how she handles that.

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Ustwo

From my understanding an open relationship would be where you are able to form sexual partnerships with other men/women, without the consent or presence your partner. So while calling a swinging relationship 'open' would be good description, I wouldn't compare it to a classic 'open relationship' which is something totally different. Undoubtedly there are people in this kind of open relationship who are swingers, but most swingers would not be 'open' to such an arrangement.

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DEI37

I can see where you're coming from, Ustwo. I would however disagree that an "open relationship" as you define it would allow sexual partnerships without consent. Without knowledge perhaps, but the partner would have the "blanket permission" to do so, and whether or not they shared of their affairs would be up to them. I know there are people that do it...we can't do that. Other than that, I can agree with ya on what you're saying.

But, back on topic.

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Ustwo

Yes true, I guess I said that wrong. I was thinking individual consent not a blanket consent which is what an open relationship is.

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alexmegami

If you are not emotionally ready for this, say no and be prepared to explain why. Try and figure out what it is that makes you uncomfortable, and explain that to her as non-judgmentally as possible. Don't bring the best friend into this; her proclivities have exactly nothing to do with what you and your wife are doing (unless she is pressuring your wife into getting into bed with other men!).

Why does it make you uncomfortable? Why are you afraid of it snowballing out? I'd say the first order of business here is to close down on the swinging altogether until both of you feel stable, safe and secure in your marriage again.

Cervantes

It is quiet obvious that your marriage has reached a critical point, you really need to talk to her about why it makes you so uncofortable and she also needs to explain WHY she want's to have sex with other men. As alexmegami said, shut down all swinging and extramrital activities untill you have managed to resolve this. It is very important that you agree upon a set of ground rules and have a clear idea of what the boundries are. From what I've read in your posts neither of you seem to have made the boundries very clear.
If you take this lifestyle seriously and you wish to continue doing it you need to have a clear idea about what the boundries are and be able to trust your partner not to overstep any of them.

As I have seen with some of my friends who are into swinging, both parties always knows what the other one is doing and with whom. Their consent is crucial here, for a swinging relationship to work both parts must always be comfortable giving consent to what the other part is doing.

Her "affair" with other men is a huge bump, even if it never went as far as cheating. She proved to you that she didn't care for your reservations when it didn't suit her.
One thing I've been facinated with in swinging couples is the level of openness they have for eachother, thy know precisley what boundries and reservations their partners have and they respect them without hassle.

So to bottomline it, don't let her do it untill you are 100% shure that you can let her without feeling betrayed or run over. Jealousy is most definently nothing to play with, it is a very primal reaction that can have severe consequenses. If you are not 100% confident that you can let her be with another man, make sure she knows that if she does she is cheating on you.

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ratbastid

You know, I'm not so sure there IS any way an open relationship is. I think there are as many different configurations and arrangements as there are couples participating in those sorts of arrangements.

I'm not big on the term "open relationship" for exactly that reason. It leaves a lot to interpretation. The term "polyamorous" is a better one--it describes more precisely the nature of the external relationships, and conveys that it's not just all about the sex.

Back to the topic, though... Look, if you're not comfortable, say no. If she goes off anyway, you'll have to deal with that. Those are the only two common rules I know in every poly/open/swinging couple: everyone has to be comfortable, all rules must be followed.

On the other hand... Look, there's comfortable and then there's comfortable. lurkette right now is having a relationship with a woman that we were both with until a few months ago. She broke up with me but not with her. This woman remains a good friend of mine, though there has been, as you can imagine, some strain on the relationship. I have to deal with myself every single time they're together, and I always succeed at getting comfortable with it. But I don't start out comfortable, if you get my drift. My commitment to lurkette and her sexual self-expression and happiness has me willing to deal with my emotional responses to the situation, and frankly, I'm a bigger man for it in the end.

Daniel_

The man done gone said it.

Of course you are stuffed if you allowed behaviour you dislike in te past without protest.

Talk talk talk - communicate.

Let her know how you feel, let her decide what to do, ten react accordingly.

If it means packing your bags, or just making her a nice breakfast wen se comes home from his house, make sure that you can live with your consequences.

__________________

╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗
Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
And everthing is Green and Submarine
╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

raeanna74

Dei37 described our position on swinging singly with others. For the woman's safety it's wiser to only play together or at the very least only play with those that we already know fairly well.

I think the key here is respect. It does not sound like she has respect for your reservations. What fosters trust is when the partners show respect for the other's feelings. If you are not comfortable with the situation then you should say no. Express your reasons as clearly as you can. If you were to say yes even though you are not comfortable you will eventually resent the situation. It's harder to go back to where you are now if you let things start. You can make it clear that you aren't saying no permanantly and that it is open to discussion (if you feel that way) but that until you are comfortable with the idea then you cannot go along with it. She should be willing and able to respect your feelings on the subject.

For illustration. I would enjoy playing on my own. Dei37 and I have discussed this and I recognize his discomfort with single play as well as his anxiety for my safety. The option has not been totally ruled out and is open to discussion but for now I respect his desire for me to not go off alone. If I could not respect his feelings then our whole relationship would begin to break down and we would not be able to continue swinging eventually. Respect and trust are so crucial to the swinging or open relationship.

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Ustwo

With many open relationships it does seem to be just the sex, I would think of a polyamorous relationship as something very different from an open one.

I guess as you said there is a lot of interpretation and levels.

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Sweetpea

It sounds as though you know that her being with other men will have a negative affect on your marriage. Tell her how you feel and make it clear that if she chooses this path, it may be a deal breaker for your marriage.

It doesn't seem as if your wife is taking your feelings into account or respecting you are her partner. This sets off red flags to me.

Once things like honoring what your partner wants and respecting your partners feelings go out the window (which is appears they may have done so) . . . than it's not really an open relationship anymore, it's something else.

communicate with her and Be Honest about how you are feeling and if she doesn't take your feelings into account in her actions, then you need to take some steps from there.

Sweetpea

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odu_sonar_AE

First off, I don’t believe in the “open” relationship, so my opinion might not be exactly what you are looking for.

I feel the first thing that needs to happen is that you need to communicate this with your wife. You’ve been married for 12.5 years, so this should be relatively “simple” to do. Hold nothing back, and let her voice her response. Marriage, in all forms, should be built around trust, & respect, and communication is the means for that to happen.

Personally, I couldn’t let my wife be with another man, as I couldn’t be with another woman.

I wish you luck as you try to work through this situation.

Sugarmouse

[QUOTE=odu_sonar_AE]First off, I don’t believe in the “open” relationship, so my opinion might not be exactly what you are looking for.


il second this as i am a beleiver that the term 'open marriage' is a contradiciton in terms.however as we are alrready in this situation-my advice to u is that this should be all out in the open-dnt make the mistake some make and avoid questions to avoid the answer!u deserve tobe happy in any situation and it seems you arent in this one!
i also wish u luck xx

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Anomaly_

It's not judgmental; it's just an observation. Polyamorous relationships involve investments of time, energy, and love for an undefined number of people for an undefined time. This, to me (and many others), is equivalent to instability, which does not behoove a child-raising environment. I will grant you that there is very little research in this area so I can't say you're "wrong" in any sense, but your anecdotal support isn't much better than anyone else's.

The common thread is having sex with other people. Open relationships, though, ostensibly have an emotional component that swinging doesn't. Similar to what I mentioned above, open relationships are by definition flighty and lack clear structure. Ground rules are set to avoid future conflicts but there is always some level of uncertainty. In general, the type of person who gravitates toward this relationship feeds off the novelty of new people because they have trouble with intimacy. That is my hypothesis until anyone can show evidence against it.

Ustwo

And dear Sir, how would one show you they had no trouble with intimacy?

To test a hypothesis we need a framework upon which it can be tested.

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raeanna74

Could you explain this further? I'm not quite sure that I understand what you mean?

I THINK you mean that those who participate in a swinging relationship have trouble with intimacy with their partners. I personally have not seen that in any of the swinger couples that we are friends with. Several of them we've known for a few years. It seems to me that the intimacy between my husband and myself intensified when we began swinging because the level of trust and respect increased tenfold. The couples we know that we swing with have a deep intimacy between themselves. Many of them frequently act like newlyweds and have a sweet intimacy that some older couples have lost touch with. Their intimacy seems deep enough that I've seen some communicate volumes with each other with just a look. This comes from the increased communication necessary to have a swinging relationship.

I cannot speak for purely open relationships that allow each partner to pursue other affairs on their own with only planket permission to do so and not communication of those affairs with the partners in the relationship. Those situations are outside of my realm of experience. I can only speak for a purely swinger relationship.

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Lead543

I think you love your wife a lot and I think you've sacrificed some things that're important to you to make her happy. She should do the same. If you're not comffortable with this put your foot down. The last thing your kids need is a mom out having sex with other men and an emotionally burnt out father.

There should be no reason for her to crave attention from other men if you're giving her everything she needs. I think that therapy is needed here. Swinging and open marriages may work for some individuals, but it needs to work for the couple as well.

The most important thing is the well being of your children. And the most important thing to them is having two parents who love one another and share a happy, functional relationship.

agent79

if she's thinking about it she will do it. its up to you to either let her go behind your back or do it knowingly. either way, if you are uncomfortable about it talk to her and let her know. if she still persists that this is an avenue that she wants to explore, give her some legal papers explaining that if your relationship deteriorates because of this that she has no grounds in a divorce. protect yourself and your kids from her and her slutty friend. the last thing you need is her going out and banging some other guy with your permission and leaving you for him, then taking the kids, house, and half your money in the divorce.

zipper

I'd like to thank everyone for their advice...we have worked everything out. All is good, if there is one thing we are both good at, its communication!

Thanks again

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Daniel_

If it's not too much to ask, what did you resolve in the end?

Feel free to tell me to sod off, it is none of my business after all.

__________________

╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗
Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
And everthing is Green and Submarine
╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

Anomaly_

The issue of intimacy would be a consequence of psychological pathology. The hypothesis would be framed around the assumption that those involved in polyamory or swinging are more likely to have personality disorders or sexual addiction (probably as a result of childhood trauma.)

Yes, that's what I meant. Although I hadn't even thought about it in terms of the "non-primary" partners if such a thing exists. In general, I think a lack of intimacy would arise from the addictive, novelty-rewarding interaction with new people where sex is an underlying, or even secondary, motivation. I'm not saying you do or don't fit this case, but I suspect that sexual addiction and (DSM-IV defined) personality disorders are more common among the polyamorous/swinging population. I don't mean this an offensive way, I'm just skeptical that these relationships should be deemed progressive.

ratbastid

Anomaly_: Have you ever participated in any sort of non-monogamous activity? Because you're making a lot of very authoritative statements that aren't true, in my experience, and it makes me wonder where all this knowledge of yours comes from.

Explain a polyamorous group that hasn't had any change in lineup in ten years. No "novelty-seeking" behavior there. But there are plenty of those, and I can tell you that they're held in very high esteem and considered to be role models in the polyamory community. I'd be interested in hearing you square that fact with your opinions.

Ustwo

Oh golly

Well cute assumption, and completely untrue in my experiance but cute assumption.

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