Using Facebook and other social sites to get laid...
 

Yesterday on Facebook, I posted a little status message that read:

"Things I Have Observed #62: When a guy you haven't talked to before or at least haven't talked to in the last year messages you saying, 'Hey, nice pics', he's really saying 'Hey, I wanna stick my dick in you. How about Tuesday?'"

Well, it provoked a very heated debate between several of my friends that lasted all afternoon. So I wrote a note about it. Thought it might be good TFP discussion material, judging that people reacted so strongly to it.

....................................

"Hey, Nice Pics" - An Elaboration

Okay, so to some of you, this will just be another one of my rants that you have read or heard several times over the last few years.

To others, this will sound possibly embittered, an overreaction, or just totally out of character.


This isn't meant to step on toes or insult anyone. This is just a set of observations I have gathered over the last several years, from when I was a teen to now. This is not, as some might think, about looks. It's about socializing, about seduction, about online interactions, and about language.

So that's as much as a disclaimer as you are going to get. If this still pisses you off, which it shouldn't, then I'd wonder how well we really know each other, and how much we have in common with our social expectations and ideas of respect.

When I posted my status yesterday, it received significantly more responses than I expected it to. I wasn't trying to make some crazy, ephiphanic statement, I was simply observing something that has become a simple truth of many women's online interactions.

If you're a guy who does engage in online attempts at flirtation that lead to eventual boneage, you probably haven't been exposed to this, and you likely don't think that it is that much of an issue. It's simple flirting, right? And girls should be appreciative of the attention they get as a compliment-- they aren't obligated to respond, after all.

But when a girl receives several of these messages a day... all year long, it tends to grate.

And, no, it's not a "I know, I know, I'm pretty, stop telling me, I've got it, this is getting annoying", it's a "wow, I'm being objectified. These men think so little of me that they can't even bother to attempt to disguise their intent. They think it's charming, that they will have some success, that I'm stupid enough or desperate enough to positively respond to their lackluster attempts at online flirtation."

When you've got a Facebook profile up with open access and it shows your music, movies, television interests, as well as pictures of you doing... volunteer work, pottery spinning, riding an elephant, sailing, playing softball, whatever, and you get a one line message saying "Hey, nice pics", it's some guy invalidating you.

No, it's not intentional. No, it isn't malicious.

It's a guy who is too lazy or stupid to actually send you something. They look through your pics and go "nice tits/ass/face" and then they send a shitty one-liner hoping you'll respond.

If they were interested in more than sex, in actually getting to know you, they'd mention something else. Something in your dozens of pictures that could actually start a conversation.

But, no, they're focused on your pictures because they don't care about you as a person, and they aren't internetly-savvy enough to realize how much of a faux-pas "hey, nice pics" is.

Most men don't walk up to a girl and say "hey, nice face" or "hey, nice ass" or even "hey, you're pretty". Most. Sure, some will go up and say, "Hey, I'm John, and I just wanted to tell you that you're really pretty" or something cheesy along the lines of "Hey, I'm John, I don't mean to interrupt, but I'd never forgive myself if I didn't stop to tell you have gorgeous you are."

There's a level of socialzation expected. There's a level of politeness, of standards, that you're supposed to engage in. Just because this is text does not mean it's time to drop all social norms and go for the ass.

Moving on from that train of thought, as I could go on for three or four pages about it.

The general structure of the message:

Mosttimes, it's a "hey, nice pics". Nothing else.

This means that they have nothing else to say, that they've taken their time to write those three words, occasionally included the needed comma, and they've hit send. Nothing else matters, you aren't worth the energy of more. If they don't hear back from you, they won't care, because they've sent this to twenty other women and, eventually, one will respond. It's twenty minutes for twenty women. It costs nothing.

Sometimes it's a "hey, nice pics. I see you like Band X".

This is a prioritizing in language. It's a short message, next to no effort. And it's listed in level of importance to the writer. Hi. You're hot. Oh, and this other thing that I'm tossing on to show minimal effort and hope that you take the bait of talking about your favorite band.

It's not intentional, it's subconscious.

Then there's the ones that are from friends.

"Hey, nice pics. You're looking good. I've been bullfighting in Kentucky. It's been a trip, I've made a lot of friends. What have you been up to? We should meet up."

Again, prioritizing. You're hot. I'd like to stick my penis in you. This is what I've been doing that makes me cool or an object of pity that you should nestle against your soft bosom. We should meet up for soft bosom-nestling.

And some people reading this (dear god, you have a lot of free time) will say, "Noooo, it's just a friend, you're reading sex into everything! Guys aren't like that."

Well, sirs and madams, let me demonstrate for you (without copy-and-pasting the several emails I have received this year since becoming single, and even before I was), how these emails pan out.

"Hey, nice pics. You're looking good. I've been bullfighting in Kentucky. It's been a trip, I've made a lot of friends. What have you been up to? We should meet up."

"Aw, thanks. I've been working really hard to get back in shape. It's been tough, but totally worth it. Bull fighting, huh? That's really cool! How'd you get into that? Such a weird activity, I bet you have lots of stories. I've been accepted into grad school, starting in Fall, and I'm moving shortly to be closer to campus. I've also been working on my writing and just finished a script for Hustler, which is really cool."

"Yeah, bullfighting is awesome. I got into it through a friend-- I was originally going to be a rodeo clown, but they thought I'd be better flapping a cape in the wind. Anyhow, let's get together soon."

...do you see what happened? He sent message with information "A" and question "B". I responded to information "A" and gave information "B". He responded with more about "A" and completely ignored "B".

Again, not intentional, not malicious. Just a lack of caring. Because they don't care. Not even enough to comment to say "oh congratulations" or "oh neat". It doesn't enter their transom. It does not show a direct path to embedding their purple-headed warrior into your quivering love-pudding, so it is discarded as unnecessary energy to be spent typing.

This happens to me all the time.

And, no, I'm not looking for it. And, yes, I'll write back to their response about their bullfighting and drop in more about my life, even if it's just an inconsequential joke about something... and it won't be responded to. So around the fourth response where anything I say that isn't about them or sex is ignored, I'll stop writing.

I'm told I should appreciate the attention.

Please explain to me why I should appreciate it when my guy friends, guys I genuinely enjoyed spending time with, when life separated us however many years ago (they moved, I moved, they got a girlfriend, got married, stopped clubbing, whatever), message me not to catch up and see what I've been up to, tell me what they've been up to, but message me solely to hook up and ignore any attempts at friendship.

Is my friendship not worth anything to them? When I put effort forth to find out what the last few years have been like for them and share my own and they ignore it, it certainly doesn't feel like they care or have any interest in me as a person.

Then it makes me question the previous friendship. Why were they friends with me in the past? What was the motive? Friendship is to be discarded because I'm now suddenly, inexplicably, in the category of bangable?

Also to be considered on the level of appreciating their interest/enjoyment of pictures:

If they're sending a halfassed message of "hey, nice pics" then they're generally saying one of two things:

1. The recipient isn't worth more pursuit. You're hot enough for three words, but an actual conversation, fuck no.

2. The sender is socially incompetent, at least online, which isn't a compliment to the receiver. "Hi, I attract men who aren't bright enough to realize that just because we're online doesn't mean you can drop all pretense of politeness."

I receive messages from old guy friends, even old guy friends who I used to regularly sleep with, and they are genuine caring emails, catching each other up, asking about each other's lives, becoming friends again. And I will go out with them, I will take the time out of my usually insanely busy schedule to have lunch or dinner with them and I will truly enjoy myself.

Because they actually care and it shows.

Thanks for reading, if you got this far. And thanks to my true guy friends who show me that I can not talk to someone for years and still see them and know we care about each other as people, as friends.

Yes, some people have ulterior motives, others are simply casting bait to see if more can come out of just an acquaintance.

I'd be hesitant to conclude that Mr. Nice Pics wants to stick his dick in me right away. Assigning such negative motives to people tends to have ill consequences. Ask me how I know.

"Summon the Kra... uh... Misandry Monster!"

No, seriously... for every scummy dickhead that goes, "Hey, nice pics!" there is a slutty barbatron that posts nothing but party-in-string-bikini pictures.

Just sayin'.

/stereotypes

I know its shocking, but guys like to get laid and will use whatever tools are at their disposal to get laid. He probably sent out "Hey nice pics" to a bunch of girls, casting a wide net.

Eh, after I moved up to Maryland 3 years ago, I messaged an acquaintance, on the genuine hopes of making a friend and having her show me around. She blew me off. Probably thought I wanted to bone the crap out of her.

:Shrug: Take what you will. Stereotypes, assumptions and all that.

Personally, if I was trying to strike up an acquaintance with somone, I'd mention more than how attractive I thought they were with my first sentence. And then maybe write something about them, about me. Something to indicate deeper interest than physical.

I try not to assign negative motives to people, but when it becomes such a trend, and they all start with "hey, nice pics" or "hey, nice pix", I start pigeon-holing.

This is true.

However, I'm not, nor have I ever been, one of those girls. The closest I come to being sexual in a picture is in the one my profile here. 95% of my female friends do not engage in such party pictures, either. But we all receive the same messages.

Now, if I, or any of them, was posting those type of party pictures and receiving "hey, nice pics" messages, there would not be much to complain about.

Also, posting pictures to one's Facebook is, while with external intent, a solo, internal activity that does not need to be acknowledged by any friends. Sending half-assed messages to people is a social, external event, and therefore more violating, if anything. (Though violating is too strong a word, it's what I've got right now.)

---------- Post added at 04:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:17 PM ----------

It's not shocking.

I actually mentioned that in the OP. Casting a wide next. Twenty girls in twenty minutes, costing nothing, etc.

And this wasn't in reference to any particular male, but a collection of experiences over the years, as posted in the OP.

So, hang out somewhere else. You're not married to Facebook.

Facebook is a venue. A wide open and immature venue. When I feel like I'm not getting what I desire from any venue, I'll find another venue. If I don't like being hit on at a bar, I'll go to an art museum instead. Or a church. Or do volunteer work. Or go to the horse races. Whatever.

I'll find a venue that applies some kind of filter to make the inmates of that venue more likely to have some areas of commonality with me. We share a common interest, hobby, or passion. Let's explore that.

I've got big boobs. That naturally makes me a hit target. I've had guys say "Hey, nice tits!" to my face. But thats much more likely at midnight at a club. It's never happened at 10am Sunday at church.

OK, KirStang, I'm interested. How do you know?

Lindy

They might not say it, but they are thinking it. You, nor any other woman, can control the male mind. It has evolved for millions of years to want to have sex.

The current generation may not be as respectful as they were in the 50s, but we will only change if it enables us to have more sex.

Meh. I'd just see it as an opportunity to hit the ignore button. So you get tired of hitting the ignore button. It's either that or pulling a Lindy (see post #7) and finding a venue with a filtration system that keeps the shallow end of the pool from scumming up.

I agree with you that it is a lazy sperm shooter method adapted to the nascent digital age we are sinking into. Lazy sperm shooters with BS contact lines not an issue with me because I am overtly male in my online presence. I've seen the treatment the overtly female get (my Lady used to get some interesting interactions when we were first seeing each other and she still had active dating site profiles - with no pics at all FWIW). I think of sites like Plenty of Fish, and then think of how some fish just shoot their sperm into the water and hope the random eggs found there get impregnated. Hey, if they occasionally get laid because of it they will keep on keeping on. According to Richard Dawkins it isn't them, it's their genes influencing them, and they are just a vehicle engineered for this behaviour in order to keep the genes floating on down the river of time.

Not sure what sort of debate you'll get with your post. More likely agreement, commiseration, and the occasional return serve from folks like Plan9 who point out that the coin has two sides, the beast has two backs, and it takes two to tango.

/threadjack
BTW 9er - is it condescending on my part to find your bolded headline amusing mostly because of the word "Misandry"? You mention you were trailer trash, and how you lack enough IQ to kickstart a game of pattycake. But I also recall your steady slew of promotions, your honours university degree, your display of well rounded knowledge in many fields . . . maybe you ought to be commenting on Poetry's pics - show her that the tree goes all the way up and that sperm shooters can also parse some pretty sophisticated concepts when they so choose. After all, she used prose in a way that was totally reminiscent of your own :thumbsup:
/end threadjack

...the fuck? I take great offense to this. I've never claimed to have lived in a trailer. That's just disgusting.

That and I just gave my woman two bouts of double orgasm sex today. Poetry totally can't handle me.

/rockstar

...

Dude, aside from the obvious homo humor (I've outgrown it due to my current job), it's pretty clear that this only works one way.

Check it:

According to the Holy Gospel of Saint Miss Anndrus Von Stereotypika (the not-a-militant-lesbian-but-close disciple of Jesus "Modern Fucking Relationships" Christ), men are only interested in sex (every seven seconds of their life they spend at least thirty [work that math] degrading women in their perverse minds) and will do absolutely anything to get it! Anything! Women are just minding their own business posting innocent Faceyspace pictures of themselves duckfacing it up with their elbows pushed together (for maxxximum cleavage) in a Wicked Weasel bikini during their recent Cancun trip.

They don't deserve to be ogled like meat!

/somebody just punch me in the prostate already

Wait, where was I going with this hot garbage? Is this a rant about men being pigdogs or the woes of being physically attractive and/or having tits?

There are women out there that are under the impression that all male attention is sexual even though they themselves are quite plain inside and out.

From what I have observed over the years and also being a guy myself, I have found guys fall into 3 major categories when talking to women.

1. Will do anything to bed the woman.

2. Is socially inept and doesn't know where to start.

3. Wants to genuinely offer a complement with no ulterior motive.

This being said. 99.9% of straight men have a common sub-category that sex and boobs = :thumbsup:.

Really, Tenchi? Really?


Well, since I apparently have to defend my sex from The Obvious here:

For all those that weren't aware, most male/female social interactions...


Now, about your numbers:

1 and 2 are the same creature. Any guy that thinks he can "bed" a woman by commenting on her Facebook pictures is a moron. That tactic doesn't work anywhere except in teenage fantasy (or movies based on said fantasies, those horrible pieces of celluloid feces that they are). 98% of women do not react favorably to any straight-up variant of "Nice shoes, wanna fuck?" If anybody, male or female, replies with a "But this one time I..." story, fucking choke yourself. With my hand. That shit is reserved for drunken college kids or recently divorced women. Nobody intelligent* ends up in a long term relationship** with someone they fucked on a whim. The reason why we have Modern Courtship (TM), as painful as it is, is to inspect the prospective goods for herpes, psychotic former lovers and those biracial children they've had tucked away in the closet during the make-out session. Given that Men Are Only Out For Sex (TM), women, typically the more sensible creatures, tend to make sure they're not letting any old pepperoni into their hot pocket.

1 and 3 are the same creature. Guys don't talk to women they don't find attractive unless there is something else to gain (such as the friendly but way gelatinous secretary with the pancake make-up at the dentist's office). Men, when talking to other men, only tell stories, talk shop or give advice. Men that are talking to women they don't find attractive tend to do the same things even if they politely sugar coat it a little bit for the fairer sex.

/grunting and scratching

Poetry, you had me laughing - reminded me so much of when I was younger and working in bars. At least on facebook they wont be asking you to reach up for something that is on a realy high shelf or very low down to the floor. I am sure you have all overheard the desperate of a certain type be it directed at you or someone else. The internet is no different I guess.

You almost made me despise myself for being a guy! And yes honestly I get attracted to many women! I don't make moves because I am in committed relationship. But I do think dirty. That is the truth! I wasn't this dirty when I was younger.

So girls are perfect!? They don't have anything like this??? Or an inverted version?

You're killing me, CuriousBear. You're killing me.

Wow, hey! I'm a #1/#2 guy myself.

It's a good thing I refrain from commenting on women's photos on Facebook.


But...it's...so....tempting!

This is the second time you've made a personal attack in the last two weeks, the first of which you went outside of the thread and pulled into it another thread that was entirely unrelated in an attempt to discredit my argument not on its own merits, but on my own value as a person.

It would be nice if you were able to hold to the standards that we are supposed to hold at TFP of topical discussion and not personal attack. You're smart; I'm sure you can argue a topic without bringing in the OP themselves.

Also, you disregarded my response to your posting regarding women who take "duck-faced" shots in order to continue your "point". Please note that the discussion itself has continued and you might want to keep up with it and include the new input received from other commenters, myself included, in your own responses in order to achieve maximum successful discourse and overall growth.

You flaunt your sexuality even more than I display mine. You can, obviously, continue to do so, but the only thing you may achieve from it is causing discomfort in other, less sexual, TFP members. If I was one like that, I would not appreciate it.

Now, back to discussion.

It isn't a matter of deserving or not. I found myself thinking last night how a rapist's defense can run along the lines of "she was wearing a short skirt, she deserved it" or "she flirted with me, she deserved it".

There is no "deserve". There is rationalization for poorly chosen courses of action, whether those choices are as harmless as sending a "hey nice pics" message or more destructive, like rape.

Personally, I don't think of men as "pigdogs". I actually prefer the company of men to women. I always have.

But this isn't about the "woes of being physically attractive" or men as "pigdogs". It's about the sad lack of socialization in a textual format, and how it manifests (in this case) in initial attempts at seduction and/or flirtation.

And, plain, gorgeous, ugly-- it doesn't matter. I have friends in their 50s that are near two hundred pounds overweight and they receive these messages. I have friends that are jaw-droppingly beautiful who receive them. It's never actually about looks.

The post wasn't intended to whine about Facebook, so I apologize if it came off that way. It was intended to humorously comment on the social norms of engaging in internet flirtation when initiated by some men in typical online social networking sites.

Nice Shakespeare reference.

Well, on FB it turned into a debate that is, days later, still going. It's mostly about social value on beauty versus perceived self-worth (which has spawned into some arrogance threads), along with men that are too busy traveling to put forth the effort to actually seduce someone, and some other things that aren't really sticking out.

And, yes, as we see with Plan9, there's the two-sided debate. I don't view it as much of a debate, as we're discussing two separate things (the first being active pursuit in text format that socially engages-- and its lack of social norms-- and the second being internal vainglorious behavior that somehow justifies the first activity due to skin being shown which lowers the perceived value of said woman in question), but it is something being aggressively discussed.

Anyhow, I have to get back to work. I'm sure I'll do something to cause Plan9 to declare me some sort of neo-nazi feminist with vagina dentata later on today. Yay.

Off topic, but I had subordinates whom I imputed laziness, instead of seeing them as individuals trying to do their best. This made them resent me as I tried to place controls in place to monitor their work.

Also I'm in the middle of a huge fight with the GF right now because I imputed flirtyness from guys writing on my GF's wall. Yea. I think all guys talk to girls just for the chance of poon too. Even though it may have been totally innocent.

Poetry, I think you and I are soul sisters from another mother. You, however, have the gift of expressing yourself far better than I can. I've wondered exactly the same thing many a time. Not necessarily about FB, but about why so many guys think it's ok to approach women and the first thing out of their mouths is a comment on the physical.

Lindy, I'm also a gal with big boobins, and in my younger days, I used to often get comments about them from random male strangers. I don't know how you feel about it when you receive these kinds of comments, but after a few naive years of feeling flattered by them, I started to tire of it very quickly. Why is it so mystifying for guys to learn how to approach women - in person or online - and comment on something other than their physicality? I mean, I understand how difficult it can be for guys to find the personal... I don't know... chuztpah?... to start up a conversation with a woman he finds attractive but doesn't personally know. But does it always have to start with the physical? (And for those who might argue that "women should stop complaining about how men approach them, and just approach men themselves," I'm all for it and have done so myself many times. But this isn't a discussion about that issue.)

To answer your query, Poetry, about the reason strange guys on social networking sites send people "nice pix" messages... I'd agree that most of them are testing the waters to see if it will lead to casual sex. I won't say all, because I'm willing to suspend my disbelief that a handful (a very small handful) of guys who do this are really just trying to let you know they find you attractive, with no ulterior motives. But I'd estimate that at least 98% of them have an ulterior motive, and their stilted "compliment," "nice pix," is guy shorthand for "let's chat briefly, and I hope you're willing to engage in casual sex in the very near future."

As far as what to do about it... I honestly have no idea, other than hitting the ignore button, as previously suggested. But I think it's a valid point to discuss and I'm glad to read that you brought it up on FB, and sparked an interesting discussion here.

I'm too drunk to comment on this bullshit, but I'd like to suggest that my posts were not directed at anybody in particular and are stand-alone commentary.

Nobody in their right mind would misconstrue my babble as a personal attack.

I forgot what I was going to say...
I'll try again soon.

Even if he's right (if the base biological desire isn't to fuck in the hope of reproducing, what is?) he's a colossal douche and misognyist.
You don't say ...

Poetry?
I've read your other well written entries here at TFP.
I somewhat understand why Niner brought forth your other thread in another thread different than this thread. His sometimes bristly style of communication aside....it makes sense to me. It's all kinda intertwined.


You've talked about being in the porn industry,
& its dark side you were hurt by, and your attempts at compartmentalizing sex partners.
My 53 year self would advise you to get the heck out of LA & away from this atmosphere.
Los Angeles & the porn biz: "They don't Care About You As A Person."


To the OP? I'm tempted to change my gender on both face book & other places.
I love to have folks comment on my photos & it weirds me out to think that a compliment on my photos could be construed as a sexual advance...I dunno.

While my sex life is intertwined with my views on sex, Plan9 dragged a post I made about my own current mental state into a discussion about gender stereotypes in pornography consumption. Since the post he linked to was about my own relationships and sexual activity, and not my porn consumption (which had already been determined in the thread to be separate entities), it was off topic. Its only point in being brought over was to discredit my opinion by showing me to be "not of the sexual norm"... instead of directly attacking my point.

It's what someone does when they don't have enough to stand on with their own points, so they attempt to discredit the speaker. It's weak, indirect arguing.

It's also why I haven't linked my own website to this site. Because I know that someone, in some discussion, will go blast through the whole thing, select quotes from the last three years, cobble them together and start waving a finger going "Oh god, look what she likes! Her words are worthless! A girl who has had that much sex has obviously been sexually abused (sorry, no), can't know what real love is, has emotional issues, and has no value as a person or a presenter of sexually-focused debate".

Which has happened repeatedly before. It's annoying. I apparently have so much experience that it doesn't count.

He does communicate bristly, which I'm beyond used to. I don't mind it, I tend to enjoy it, but it would be nice if he discussed as well as he bristled without having to revert to accusations of feminism (also, no-- the last major feminist I encountered... oh, we had issues) and personal offense.

Quick, off-topic, cut in here... I'm not in porn. I've never been in porn. The most I ever do is hang out on set and chat with people, help paint the occasional set and, lately, work on scripts. It's been a lot of fun. I've met so many interesting and oddly creative people that have a similar mindset to sex that I do. A lot of people have this view of what the "porn industry" is like. I certainly haven't seen all of it, or even most of it, but I do know that it is a lot less seedy than people think it is.

I've actually yet to be on a "seedy" porn set. I've never seen any drug use, aside from weed by the set construction guys. About half of the people don't even smoke cigarettes. I've never seen a girl pressured into performing, or made to feel like a piece of meat. I've never seen anyone treated rudely when they weren't acting rude in the first place.

My post about people not caring who one is as a person was not about "the porn biz". My post was about the supposed average male's attempts at internet "seduction" and his disregard for social norms because he's communicating in text.

And now... back to work. Friday will end eventually.

Okay, so what have we learned?

1. Men like having sex with women and will often try to accomplish this.
   
2. This is one of the things wrong with men.

Did I miss anything?

Okay, now solutions!

I'll toss out a few:

1. Men should only do what they're told.
   
2. Men should always act with the understanding that everything they do can be construed as having perverted, aggressive, or otherwise miscreant intentions.
   
3. None of this really matters if he's extremely attractive and/or rich and/or really funny.*
   
4. It definitely doesn't matter if he's extremely attractive and rich and really funny.*

I just wanted to get the ball rolling. I don't want to steal all the thunder. There is so much we can do to help men in society, the jerks.


*Individual women each hold veto power over any and everything in deeming whether something is appropriate or acceptable.

Let me amend this to read, "men should always act with the understanding that everything they do can be construed as they might potentially sexually assault a woman, especially a woman who doesn't know them well, or at all."

If we don't know you, we have no idea what you're capable of. Even if we do know you well, we still don't always know what you're capable of. One out of every 6 American women has been the victim of an attempted or completed rape in her lifetime. One out of 6. Even if a woman doesn't know the statistics, she knows that she doesn't want to be raped, and she also knows that she doesn't know you... at least not well enough. When you're thinking about approaching a woman, especially a woman you don't know well, you might want to put yourself in her shoes, think about how you might appear to her, and double-think your approach.

Here's some food for thought: Guest Blogger Starling: Schrödinger?s Rapist: or a guy?s guide to approaching strange women without being maced Shapely Prose

Forgive me for going off topic, since the original post is really about how guys approach women on social media sites, but I think this plays into so many guys' complaints about women who assert themselves and say, hey, it's not ok to approach me in this way.

Well, that brings up another good point: all men are rapists.

Though I should point out that not all men are active rapists, nor do all men act on their rapist natures. I, for one, have never acted on this aspect of my nature.

The good? I think I'm a part of a majority.*
The bad? You never know when I'm going to cross that line until it's too late.


*I could be wrong. Maybe it's normal that we force some kind of sexual activity at some point in our lives and that we don't even consider it rape.

You can insist this is true all you like. In fact, the more you insist, the more suspicious you become. If you're a guy I don't know, approaching me to talk, or a guy I don't know contacting me on FB, I'm not a mind reader and have no idea what your intentions are. With rape statistics being so high and rape culture the norm in our society, it makes nothing but sense for me to be suspicious of your intentions and/or expect you to leave me alone.

Maybe this is why I'm so sexually passive. I've never actually seduced anyone before. I've always let women come to me. Do you think this is preferable? Say, men being sexually inert until women give the right messages to suggest they should be otherwise?

---------- Post added at 09:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:22 PM ----------

By the way, you won't need to amend it because I would say the intention to commit sexual assault falls under miscreant intentions.

Then why would you be friends with them on Facebook? :confused:


Back to the original post... this has never happened to me on Facebook. The closest, I think, was a friend I hadn't seen in a while who said something along the lines of, "hey, you're looking good!" Since I'd dropped about 50 pounds since the last time I'd seen him, I imagine that had something to do with it.

I would get friend requests on Myspace with notes similar to "nice pics!" but they were always from people I didn't know, and I would just click ignore.

*shrug*

Hehe, thanks. It comes from years of ranting on various topics. The last couple years have been focused on ranting on sexual dynamics, gender roles, and internet interactions.

I know guys focus on the physical. I know there's a supposed biological reason for this which sounds pretty logical to me. I just wish that, like you said, more of them had any chutzpah to go along with their lust.
I don't really think there's anything to do about it. It's very much like Lindy said... leave, or get used to pressing ignore.

But it's a bit disheartening to let yourself get chased off by a slew of "hey, you're hot... how about Tuesday"-type messages.

Here, let me fix this.

1. Men like having sex with women and will often try to accomplish this.

1.5. Men will engage in various levels of asshattery in their attempts to engage in sex, a portion of that population either ignorant willfully disregarding of other people's comfort zones and personal space, showing a total lack of intelligence and awareness with the first, making them undesirable mates or showing a total lack of respect for another human being with the latter.

1.6. The internet causes a level of social disassociation with the intended victim of the man's affections, making the disrespect or ignorance magnified.

1.7. Some men justify this behavior, whether online or off, by saying the girl was asking for it because of a short skirt or a duck-face.

1.8. Men really like duck-faces.

2. This is one of the things wrong with how some men are socialized.


As for some solutions?

How about education?

How about teaching personal responsibility and awareness in school?

How about we stop assigning social value to sex like it's a precious commodity? (I continue to think that this would solve god knows how many social-sexual problems.)

How about we "allow" women to set their own standards for partners and not call them cunts if they turn a man down because they know they're better than a "hey, nice pics" or "hey, nice tits" message?

How about we teach men about seduction and sex, give them something to work with? Show them where boundaries lie, how to read their potential partner? And tell women that it's okay to have sex with someone without having a serious relationship with them?

I don't think that's verbally accurate.

That's like saying I'm a surgeon because I can cut someone open with a knife. Or, something less aggressive sounding, that's like saying I'm a football player when I've never touched a football, but have the potential to throw one around.

All men are potential rapists.

All women could be potential rapists of men, but one of the American's government data bases that collects information on rape to show the country's statistics defines rape as something that happens to a woman... with a penis (fingers or other objects don't count), does not include anal or oral penile violations, does not count if it's a family member (that falls under incest), and does not count if she's under age (that's statutory).

And what's left is the statistic that is reported as the rate of rape in the US.

But to go back to the original rape-focused point... men cannot be rape victims, nor can women who rape other women (no penises!), in the US according to their statistic gatherings. Which really makes you wonder what the actual stats are.

Well, makes me wonder.

---------- Post added at 06:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:38 PM ----------

Also, has there been a single female that has posted in this thread who has said they do not get these types of messages? I haven't seen one, but then I don't know everyone's gender.

Oh god. Every man is a rapist? What type of bullshit illogical approach is that? Everyone is a special butterfly who deserves to be treated as an individual until they are male? Then they are just rapists who obviously never have good intentions?

This reminds me of all the fuck-all hypotheticals I read where the offender is always male and the victim/good guy is female.

Poetry, I agree with you in principle that society is failing men (and boys).

That is the root of this problem and many others.

---------- Post added at 09:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:41 PM ----------

I should point out that I was being facetious. Though it's difficult to argue against "all men are potential rapists." I'm just not sure it's a very useful concept. Probably not.

I wan't sure until you posted about being sexually passive. Then I figured you were no longer being sarcastic/facetious.

...

Also...don't your rape statistics tell you that most rapists are known by the victim?

Although I've never had a face book, I can understand what the OP is getting at.

I've see a lot of the equivalent real life behavior and it does give me the squirts. But hey, I also see a hell of a lot women respond to it positively.

I think if you're going to contact someone you haven't spoken to in a long time, you owe more to them and yourself than just 'nice pics'. The OP is right, it shows that they don't give a shit. And keeping in mind this is from a guys point of view, but if people display to me they don't give a shit, then the feeling is quite quickly reciprocated and thus mutual. I just can't be fucked with social fluff in my life.

I can imagine the frustration, but I don't think it's terribly hard to see it for what it is, just guys being lazy dicks, and it shouldn't have to paint a bad picture of all men.

There's an outspoken Aussie lass who is my kind of feminist who is actively trying to get men on her side, and doing quite well at it. Because she believes, at the end of the day, women need men and men need women, the goal of feminism should be to unite the two with a healthy mutual understanding of eachother.

Any how much of this is just me waffling on.

You have to give us a break Poetry...you are just so darn sexy we cannot help it!!! And since I have never seen you you know it's your mind that I lust after. And all the other ladies here are too!!!

Yes, this is true, and I'm not disputing that fact. But that doesn't preclude women's perfectly rational suspicions of men they don't know. Just because you know you're a "nice guy" who would never "do that" to a women, we don't know it. So think twice before you approach us, especially if you're thinking of making a comment about anything physical.

Gah...

Like I totally understand and get where you're coming from. But it's just sooo... negative, I guess, I can't find the word I'm after.

That position seems to completely disempower women and makes guys out to all be monsters.

I know that's not what you think, and I understand where the mind set comes from, it's just soo..... ergghh

But like a lot of things, it's just an unfortunately fact and reality.

Back on topic!

While going for a little ride I gave this some thought.

It's the attitude of guys who do this I find shit, but I will not be made out to be a misogynist asshat for complementing a woman on her looks. I don't very often do it, when I do I'm quite genuine, and believe it or not I'm not trying to get into women's pants when I do.

Social media has changed things, a lot, and the textual medium is tricky. There's a lot that can be read into something that simply isn't there. I know full well a lot of guys use it to hook up, I know a lot of women use it for the same purpose. I think I like the analogy that FB is just a venue, and like any bar or pub, there's pretentious wankers, uptight self involved barbie dolls, and fuck heads that try to fuck anything with a vagina and legs.... and then there's the real sad folk who don't even care for the legs.

I think the problems women will find is that FB is a particularly big venue, so there's a staggeringly large amount of dicks. Like a lot of lifes little annoyances you just have to ignore it and move on. There's a lot of good peeps out there who care more about the quality of ones heart.... and blood type...

But like I said in my earler post, I'm not on FB, and amazingly resistant to jump on board the social media craze. It probably says a lot about me, I don't know, but I like not being on the radar. I have my close friends who I give a shit about and who give a shit about me, the rest is just white noise to me, and I'd rather do without it.

This. Facebook allows you to shut out people you don't want to be friends with. I'm aware that there are some people that friend people they don't know for some reason, but I've never been one of those. If I were young and single and didn't want to be hit on in a meaningless way, I wouldn't be friends with people who might do that.... so specifically, in relation to the OP, I do feel your pain that guys are clueless and jerks sometimes, and I would even agree that there's a large % of "typical" guys out there in the world that just treat women the wrong way and really give men a bad name, but I don't see it applying to FB unless you're using the site the wrong way. <shrug>. Or in a way I can't envision. Am I missing something here?

Everyone has to be respectful of others' boundaries, but everyone also has to accept that as a species, certain members are attracted to certain other members and will act on it. Nobody has a right to be pushy or creepy about it, or to harass others, but we all (yes, even us guys) need to expect that we will receive unwelcome advances and that if they're not creepy or pushy, even if they're awkward and transparent, that we just have to ignore or politely decline them because it's part of human interaction.

Some people are out there just looking for sex, and there's nothing wrong with it as long as they go about it without being pushy or threatening. The tone of your post I'm replying to seems to imply that that there's something wrong with men who are looking for casual sex.There isn't.

Gentlemen, some of you are wondering what you can do to make a difference.
If a lady has been visiting your home socialy, offer to walk her to her car. If you are driving a woman home, wait in your car until she enters safely.
If you are late and running, please consider crossing the road so we do not feel we are about to be jumped on and thrown in bushes etc.
Poetry, I should imagine rates here are similar by now - 1995 it was one in eight here. So gentlemen, bear in mind if you have a mum, a wife and a daughter there is a fifty fifty chance they will be assaulted in a sexual manner by someone. I would suggest you teach them some small self defence moves - enough to give them time to run, maybe 'monkey grabs peach' - and tell them to scream FIRE! because people take more notice than if they shout rape. If you see a woman who seems to be unwillingly persued by an unwanted admirer - chap saw me in that position, came over and said to the creepy guy 'its all right, I dont mind you speaking to my wife' and had a made up or ad lib conversation with me that gave the impression this stranger and I were married. He whispered to me 'I hope you didnt mind, but you seemed to be uncomfortable, and he didnt seem to be getting the message'. Very sweet and considerate thing to do I thought. Remember, we are all someones daughters, mothers, wives or sisters - keep an eye open as you would wish others do for yours.
Ladies do not carry keys and your address in the same bag, best keep your keys in a pocket if possible - if someone grabs your bag, dont lose your life for it.

I've got another side of this coin, more fucked up stories about my sex life.

First off, the rape thing. Rape is a serious subject and I do not mean to trivialize women who have been the victims of rape.

That said, the whole "all men are rapists" thing pisses me off to no extent, because it can be abused. I know, I was dubbed a "rapist" in college for a short period of time.

Story time: A hostess at the restaurant I worked at was at a party I was at. We had a few drinks and smoked some weed, then she precedes to pull me into a side room and make out with me. We mess around and she says she doesn't want to do it here, but somewhere else. I say I'm to buzzed to drive back to my apt (I was planning on crashing on the couch at said house) and we plan for another time.

Next day at work... I'm a rapist. Seems hostess girl's BF heard about her going off into a room with another guy (she never told me she had a BF). Her response? I forced her into that room and tried to have sex with her against her will. This got around the restaurant and I had went from "guy fooling around with the hot freshman" to "that motherfucking rapist". I was pulled aside by my manager and was asked about it, I told him what went on and actually had a witness to backup my story. Two female friends of mine saw her pull me into the room and watched us leave the room talking. I called them up and had them come talk to the GM.

They grabbed the hostess and took her out back. After 15 minutes of getting integrated by them, her story changed. They got her to admit to the GM about it and spread the truth around the restaurant. She quit and I never saw her again.

In order to save face with her BF, she was going to label me a rapist. This story would have worked if I wouldn't had my witnesses to back me up. I would have been found guilty and there would have been nothing I could have done to prevent it. I most likely would have gotten my ass kicked (apparently her BF was huge) and I could have been arrested for this (as her friends were counselling her to do). This seriously could have ruined my life at that point and the long term effects could have been huge (labeled as a sex offender, ect).

Now, I've had girls lie and say they never slept with me to save face (I couldn't count how many times this happened), but this was fucking ridiculous. I've heard about events like this, but I never thought a human being would stoop this low to save face.

In the end it just added to my list of reasons I hate humanity and raised the level of bitterness I hold towards the female species.

tl;dr Fooled around with a girl, she got caught, labeled me a rapist to save face. She would have gotten away with it because of the "all men are rapists" attitude.

*****

I also have a comment on the social aspect of flirting, but my fucking hand hurts and I am going to wait til later to type it out.

Again, if I don't know you, don't approach me in public, regardless of your intentions. I don't know you. I can't read your mind. I have no idea what your intentions are. In addition, the more you insist that you "mean no harm," you're a "good guy," the more suspicious I will become. Can't I just be female in public (horrors! :surprised: ...I mean, there I am, just being a lady at you! :surprised:) without some guy approaching me? Just because I'm a straight woman and you're a straight guy doesn't give you a right to approach me, regardless of your intentions.

Nothing wrong with a guy being interested in casual sex. There *is* something wrong, however, with approaching a woman he doesn't know and expecting a response from her, whether he just wants to say hi and see if she'll engage in a little conversation, or if he's looking for an insta-hookup. As I wrote above, you don't get to *expect* a response, think you're *deserving* of a response just because I'm a woman. What I deserve is to be able to be myself in public without having guys think it's their right to approach me, and that they're deserving of a response.

I am curious about something. If people who do not know each other are to avoid any form of contact, social interaction, anything at all - how does this attitude help peoples plural begin to know each other? Are all strangers to be the eternal enemy? And what allows an unknown into the sacred circle of the known? What magic ju-ju is performed to allow a person to say hello to another without getting the f-off freeze out that seems to be the preferred position of thirtiesgirl and her ilk?

If I get the vibe from a person that I am a freaky piece of sh*t when all they know about me is that I am breathing air in their vicinity, then I get the idea that they are an ignorant piece of sh*t and deserve nothing but my disdain and my disgust at their self-righteous arrogance.

I don't approach people in public - never have and probably never will. But if I get the f-off freeze face from someone then they have declared themselves outside of the social niceties circle. Don't drop your grocery bag or dump your purse near me, handle your own doorways when burdened with packages, and just keep standing on that bus/subway instead of taking my seat. You want me at a remove then you've got it. That attitude really flips my switch. Burns my biscuits. Gets my goat.

Be an island. But understand that if you go around pissing on every little wave that has the ill fortune to brush against your sacrosanct shores you will create circles of ill-will around you, and that sort of negative crap cannot be good for anything at all.

Yeah, yeah - you are a rape magnet. Every single guy who makes the mistake of saying "nice day" on a nice day is actually planning on ramming you deep and hard while you shriek in horror. Every fellow who hasn't been graced by your personal dispensation allowing him the rare privilege of smiling at you is a foul beast who should be caged.

Sheesh. And I thought I had social issues.

....Kramus...amen brother...took the words right outta my mouth!

Got it. I promise I won't talk to a woman I don't know ever again unless my butler introduces us in proper form.

I know, right? Things were so much better pre-20th century, when introductions were so formal. We're such barbarians for having to introduce ourselves today.

It makes me wonder though. Is it cool, at least, to make eye contact?

Careful with that kinda talk now, Brother Kramus.

Hey, one of the mods, is there a way to split this thread? We've got some good discussion about the OP, but now it's going onto rape and potential rapists. Would be nice to have them separated.

Well, speaking personaly, I prefer a gentleman look me in the eye than talk to my tits.
I came out of the supermatket one day, and as I was unloading my shopping and putting it in the car, I noticed this young man at least half my age with a camera phone in hand....... when he saw I had seen him..... do you think perhaps he was going to offer to help? No. 'Sorry, aint you got big tits'. I threw the rest of my shopping in my car, and I was shaking and crying.
Was cycling down an alleyway/narrow footpath when I heard running feet behind me. Something tells you. Got off my bike and had it between us when this man passed, and as I went through a gateway he had doubled back, slid his hand under my arm and grabbed my tit. I dont think he was expecting a snarling bitch to say 'You piece of shit' to start yelling 'stop that pervert' - which no one did of course - despite several mums with pushchairs and a couple of dads as it was school finish time next door. I gave chase, but lost him - I think he went behind some flats. Had I caught him, I would have pounded his head into the tarmac. Reported incident and gave description - then about ten years later, theres a man attacking and raping a schoolgirl in a churchyard and attacking other women - the schoolgirl - when they mentioned the bike, I just knew it was him. So I got out my bike, and would cycle up and down the cycle track where he had been 'doing his thing'. Here in UK we are not allowed guns, but I had a nice heavy D lock for my bike sitting handily in my bike basket - I was wishing that bastard to jump me. He got caught in the end, same bloke, serial sex attacker - day I got accosted by him the policeman said I got off lightly as he had seriously attacked a woman on a train shortly before he tried for me. It was him in the paper. If someone had stopped the pervert, one of the dads walking with their wife - several women would still have their minds intact. But. I tried to do my bit, thats all you can do.
Question thirties girl. One of the woods I go walking the dogs in there is an elderly gentleman with a lab I think, and when he passes ladies on their walks, he tips his cap and says 'good morning'. All of the dog walking ladies respond with like, pass comment on what a lovely dog he has, because its nice to be met with politeness and to return it is to encourage it, and good manners should be encouraged should they not. Besides, it makes us smile and makes us feel the world is a nicer place for a moment. To the question. How would you respond in such a situation thirties girl? Would you find it offensive? Infringing on your personal space? Would you turn your head and shun him?
Baraka, you are right in your joke - introductions used to be made, and a friend introducing you to another friend of their circle, its sort of like a reference in a way, so yes it was easier to believe you were safer than meeting total strangers - just like you would introduce a friend to a good garage that you found charges very fairly and does good work - its better to be introduced than to look through the telephone book.
Poetry, it has rather taken a life of its own this thread - just like a discussion over beer and around a table in the pub would go. You could turn the clock back a couple of hundred years, have no electricity etc, and still, when the ladies got up to go to the privy in pairs, as is often their want, they would still be chatting on the same topic, men and their intentions, what gentlemen or pigs individual men were/are - I think its long been a mating selection game for want of a more proper description - but its like, you just might not be in the mood for or want a roast dinner, having one shoved in your face doesnt make you want it, you already know you dont - might get the urge for a ploughmans later, never know, but you just dont fancy a roast.
A lady, I was told in my youth, should be treated like a lady - until she proves herself to be otherwise.

I'm sure I'm not the only one on the planet who's heard of internet dating, am I right? If you want to make a connection with someone, there are plenty of people on dating sites willing to chat with you, meet up with you, engage in casual sex, etc. They're on the dating site because they want to be contacted. They're not just hanging out at the bus stop, book store, coffee shop, neighborhood bar, wherever, in their own space. They've made it public that they're looking for a connection. This is not true of women in any other situation. We're not asking to be approached, unless we give you a signal that we'd like to be approached or it's ok for you to talk to us. If you make the choice to approach a woman and she doesn't want you to approach her, be prepared for the assumption that you're not the "nice guy" you assume yourself to be to cross her mind.

Do I really need to explain that women are a marginalized group, kramus? Women are the subject of FAR MORE sexual assaults than men. You are in the position of privilege, not being in a marginalized group. When you act on that privilege, by expecting a response from a woman you've randomly approached in public, you're stepping over boundaries that you choose to ignore.

Phaedra Starling expresses it better than I could. Quoted directly from her article:

Word.

Rude behaviour is not restricted to one gender.
Chaps, any of you been persued by 'a right munter' that you have found to be behaving inappropriately? What do you do when the daughter of Hagar makes it clear that she intends to 'plunder your treasures'? Do you find it offensive/uncomfortable - do you become filled with the need for flight? Do you try and exit in a gentlemanly and tactfull manner, maybe you run screaming, or just treat them like a turd you have just stepped in? Are you truly heroic/desperate and lay there 'thinking of england' figuring its like a community service?

---------- Post added at 02:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:25 AM ----------

[E]

Male rape is less likely to be reported. I know a few years ago, a chap made his way into a police station, having been beaten and raped by a male stranger - and the officers thought it was funny, and at least behind his back had a good old laugh about it. Dark ages. I would not call myself 'feminist', but rather 'equalitist' (if thats a word).
As far as the catholic church goes, it seems there were more sex attacks made on boy children than on girls, so I guess in certain situations one could argue that boys are far more at risk.

I won't go so far to suggest that men should never approach me, but after many years of exposure to the enthusiastic claims of many men that they think about sex all day long, that they think about having sex with every woman they see, that they are never just friends with women because they want to screw every woman they know, etc., etc., etc. why should any woman not think that a man saying 'hi, nice day' isn't really saying 'wanna fuck'?

I remember the first time I was called out to by a strange man from a car on Orange Avenue here in Orlando. I was 12 years old. Ever since then it has been a virtual parade of staring, leering, comments, and 'hi, how are you?(s)' from strangers in laundromats and gymnasiums and convenience store parking lots. Surprisingly enough, I have found the internet to be much less fraught with unsolicited, thinly veiled small talk because I don't wander around a lot and have primarily stuck to places where I am known and therefore (hmmm) that sort of thing is seen as harassment.

I think that the progression of my life right down to recent events has left me very cynical and somewhat resentful of the habits of men. It didn't used to bother me to sit in a restaurant and see some guy sitting there with his family and staring a hole in my head while I'm trying to have dinner with my daughters, now it does. Speaking of my daughters, it is also very dismaying to walk into a store or a restaurant with them and see the same things happening all over again...men of all ages ogling them like a slice of prime rib that just walked in the door.

I am a very sexual person and most people here know that I don't have a problem putting myself out there as a sexual object when I want to, but it is at a time and place of my choosing, not when I am grocery shopping or getting my oil changed. I know men can't help it, it's just the way they are, but it is tiresome and I think especially so to some women as they get older. Not speaking for all women.

I'm not sure where the rape thing came from, but I'm pretty sure it didn't come from a woman on this thread.

My Lady & I met on OKCupid. She approached me because she liked my words and my questions. It worked out.

I object to being marginalized because I am a male. I object to being categorized because I said hello, or even just smiled in a friendly way. I object to being automatically put in the rapist column because men have been rapists. That is nastier and far less discriminating than finding hygiene challenged people a bother to be next to on a hot day. If you want to act like some freaky social misfit snarling and lashing at people because they make the mistake of making eye contact or saying howdy - well all I can offer is that you get yourself to a physical place where you feel most comfortable. The rest of humanity is not obligated to know you want a buffer zone of "Ignore me and Stay Back" around you. It is more intelligent and less problematic if you stay away from other people. Odds are at least 50% of those other people are going to be of the male gender, and it is terribly unfair to them to be subjected to random hate attacks and nasty vibes simply due to the fact that they have a Y chromosome.

btw - if you want to put a quote into a post it is easier for all parties if you tuck the [QUOTE] boxes around it instead of making it a different colour of text. Not everyone uses the same skin - I use classic green - which makes funky type colour choices (such as blue) difficult to read. I had to highlight your quote to read it. Another person may find it easier to just skip said quote and move on.

The Phaedra person makes good points. Perhaps it ought to be part of the socializing package educators could give all kids in school, along with telling them to brush their teeth, wear clean clothes and bathe regularly. A form of common sense social hygiene.

I would find your posts far less personally and generically offensive if they came from the Phaedra camp rather than from the "You are the enemy, you are the problem, you stay the f* away from me you male bastard" place that I sense in your own words.

A thought.

No, I can totally see that. And hey, since all men are predators they probably shouldn't be interacting with children either! Maybe we can cordon them off somewhere and only let the pre-approved ones out.

...

Are you fucking kidding me?

...all this bitterness, disappointment, fear and mistrust....all from a "hey, nice pics" comment...

Wonder what would happen if I ask hows the weather....

and, of course, all of this happens inside a void of delusion and paranoia.

I hear a lot on this site about what women do, how they behave, how they operate, what their flaws are, why the experiences of some men have led them to be distrustful of women...I mean, they are purported right here on this very thread.

Just as all women have to, in the larger, societal sense, bear the burden of the misunderstandings and bad behavior associated with their female counterparts, so do men.

What's more, why is small talk about the weather with a stranger supposed to be so goddamned welcome? I'm going to surmise that a significant proportion of the population, male or female, doesn't find that activity enjoyable. Add to that the fact that, if you're a woman and this is a guy, it's highly likely that the gentleman has already imagined sticking his dick in you. Oh, yay, how lovely and inspiring.

I don't disagree with anything in that article, but I'm a bit confused since you previously said this
in response to this post of mine
Which sounds to me a lot closer to what Ms Starling is saying than your post.

And on a side note, I ask on behalf of everyone using the TFP Green color scheme that you switch your blue text to a quote box.

NEWSFLASH: NOT EVERY MAN WANTS TO FUCK YOU!

More at eleven.

...

What really takes the blue ribbon in this whole shitstorm is the goddamned dichotomy. Like all women are automatically victims and all men are depraved goddamn sex-a-holics who would rape a sheep if it did it's wool up nice that day. The idea that a man could approach a woman with something other than sex on his mind is apparently just too much to consider. We're only allowed to think sexy thoughts when she wants us to, even though we are anyway because everyone knows that men only want one thing, amirite?

I mean, shit, it's not like they're people. More like cavemen. Or cockroaches.

Really?? Oh, poor you. I think you need to spend some time doing some research on how women are marginalized around the world. In another thread on this forum, someone posted an article about the gang rape of an 11 year old girl by a group of adult men in Texas. 1 in 6 American women are raped; in 2003, 9 out of 10 rape victims were women; 17.7 million American women have been the victims of attempted or completed rape. And the numbers are even greater in other countries that are more male-centric than ours. Consider the war crimes done to women in Africa. It's estimated that a woman born in South Africa has a greater chance of being raped than learning how to read. In a survey conducted among 1,500 schoolchildren in the Soweto township, a quarter of all the boys interviewed said that "jackrolling," a term for gang rape, was fun. And that's just South Africa. Consider Latin America, Cambodia, India, the middle east, other areas where women are often viewed as "property," as "less than" men, and deserving of being treated like shit. You still want to claim you're being marginalized because you're male?

Your behavior in this thread reminds me too much of this guy, with the insistence that I'm "some freaky social misfit snarling and lashing at people," that I "go around pissing on every little wave that has the ill fortune to brush against your sacrosanct shores," and your poor attempt at sarcasm, "Every single guy who makes the mistake of saying 'nice day' on a nice day is actually planning on ramming you deep and hard while you shriek in horror. Every fellow who hasn't been graced by your personal dispensation allowing him the rare privilege of smiling at you is a foul beast who should be caged."

Rather than taking my words at face value and accepting that it's ok for women to tell you to step off and leave us alone if we don't want to talk to you, you're engaging in personal attacks and 'humor' in poor taste to insist you're really the marginalized one, being male and all, and that women should just stop their damn complaining so much. To quote again from Ms. Starling, whose words you seem more willing to accept than mine, "a man who ignores a woman’s NO in a non-sexual setting is more likely to ignore NO in a sexual setting, as well." You're behaving an awful lot like that guy.

---------- Post added at 09:25 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:21 AM ----------

That's why I used the personal pronoun "me," because I was speaking for myself, not anyone else, n'est pas?

Sorry. Fixed. I don't use the green scheme myself. Green background with small white type is hard on my eyes.

Well, this thread is a bit of a condemnation of male sexuality.

Women's sexuality is all holisticly wholesome with its generative lilithesque healthfulness.

Men's sexuality is depraved, aggressive, deameaning, and perverted. And you can attribute all that to just the part where we make advances. Wow...sexual advances and propositions. We're such creeps. It's bad enough that we look at women. I hate being so sexually charged and having to respond to seeing an attractive women. Surely there is someway to shut it off. Maybe interventional psychological therapy---failing that, medicine or surgery.

There's a fine line between being a creep and simply being a healthy male---misogyny and misandry is a two-way street.

Newsflash: I never said that every man wants to fuck me. I love, though, how this is effectively turned into a question of vanity and not something that most women on the planet have experienced. I don't care if you are pretty, ugly, fat, skinny, black, white or purple, every woman knows what I am talking about.

Not to mention, I base my comments on what I have been told by men about their own thoughts and behavior over and over and over again.

Scary thing in the news papers today. Because some silly tart picked up a nutter on internet and he murdered her, the govt is trying to bring in a new law so women who meet men in chat rooms CAN GO TO THE POLICE AND ASK ABOUT ANY CRIMINAL RECORD THE MAN MIGHT HAVE BEFORE THEY DECIDE TO DATE THEM EVEN.
Seems a tad stupid, reckless and one sided. There are no plans for the man, considering dating an internet lady, to be able to go to the police and demand to see if she has a record for violence etc. If the police are called out for anything, there is a record, I do not think you even have to have been convicted of an offence. The other plan being debated, if if police should just go warn women who have picked up violent etc men on the internet.
As for the number of rapes in third world countries - put your own bloody house in order before you go moaning about the neighbours. I doubt many on here will be intending to meet up with potential internet lovers from Soweto - and some places in the world are a giveaway by postcode.
Newsflash. Not all tourists to Thailand are into shagging small children. Not all tourists to Amsterdam go there for red lights or hash cafes. Remember Kavorkian? Shipman? Does that mean we should all be scared to go to the doctors - although technicaly, Shipman was worse as his lot didnt ask to die.
SOME people in this world are arse holes, regardless of gender, race, age, weight, eye colour - list is endless. Thats just the way it is

Speaking for myself and my own comments.

I have spent more than five years on this site hearing how shallow, deceitful and manipulative women are when it comes to men. In fact, you yourself, Baraka referred to women as being ok with these kinds of advances from rich/attractive men, which really surprised me. Women are accused of 'duckfacing in bikinis' and then being outraged when someone makes an advance. Somehow these kinds of comments are ok. But now behavior that men proudly attribute to themselves is being challenged, not as demeaning or perverted (by me), but as a tiresome, predictable pain in the ass and you just can't stand it. I don't get it.

This is the thread thirtysomething mentioned. I posted it in the ladies lounge as I thought they were more likely to sign the petition - here it is in its entirety as I know you chaps wouldnt be seeing it in the ladies lounge -
chinese crested
Insane


Location: hampshire 11 year old girl gang raped - petition

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I hope you dont mind TFP, I thought this important, and I thought it a matter some ladies might like to support


11-Year-Old Girl Gang-Raped By 18 Men In Texas
by Amelia T.
March 9, 2011
11:36 am
604 comments
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.*Trigger warning*
In a story that is horrifying both because of its content and the media coverage that has followed in its aftermath, 18 young men and teenage boys, some as young as middle-schoolers, were arrested in the town of Cleveland, Texas, for gang-raping an 11-year-old girl last November. The police learned about the assault last November, when one of the girl’s elementary-school classmates told her teacher that she had seen a cellphone video of the attack.

According to an affidavit, which cited photos and videos as proof, the girl was offered a ride by a 19-year-old man, who took her to his house, forced her to disrobe, and along with several other men, sexually assaulted her. She was then taken to an abandoned mobile home, where the rest of the assaults occurred. Several of the attackers documented the event on their phones.

All of this is now just hitting the news. New York Times reporter James McKinley Jr.’s approach, which focuses on the way that the East Texas community has reacted to the assaults, is problematic, insensitive, and victim-blaming. It paints the attackers as well-meaning “boys” who were “drawn into” the horrible violence, and describes the victim as dressing “older than her age, wearing makeup and fashions more appropriate to a woman in her 20s.” Although the alleged attackers are only now being arrested, and a trial has yet to commence, the coverage seems to indict the victim as if not more severely than the men who repeatedly raped an 11-year-old girl, while taking videos on their cellphones.

As Shakespeare’s Sister points out, by the fourth paragraph of the NYT article we know a significant number of details about the attackers; the victim has yet to figure in the story aside from her gender and age. McKinley quotes a woman who is dismayed at the idea that “these boys have to live with this the rest of their lives.” Of course, the trauma of being raped by almost twenty men is made to seem negligable by comparison.

To make matters worse, the description of the victim plainly implies that she was a deviant figure. She had been “visiting friends” in the neighborhood near the abandoned trailer in the months before her assault, and sometimes hung out with teenage boys near a playground. According to the woman quoted above, this means that the assault was the girl’s mother’s fault.

“Where was her mother? What was her mother thinking?” she said. “How can you have an 11-year-old child missing down in the Quarters?”

McKinley then launches into a description of the town’s economic depression, and describes the trailer’s bleak interior. Instead of the story of a violent crime perpetrated by adults and minors against another minor, this angle encourages us to feel sorry for the small town that has been “shaken to its core.” The attackers are equally victims, and the victim is for the most part absent. The word “rape” is only used a few times in the article, the fact that the girl could not have consented is mentioned nowhere, and the tragedy is not that an 11-year-old girl was subjected to unspeakable violence, but that the “town” (represented through the one person quoted) doesn’t know how to react.

The Houston Chronicle‘s coverage is equally bad. Describing the victim’s Facebook postings, Cindy Horswell writes,

“Sometimes she comes across like a little girl, such as when she talks of her special talent for making “weird sound effects” and “running in circles” to overcome nervousness.

But she also makes flamboyant statements about drinking, smoking and sex. Yet her vulnerability pokes through the tough veneer as she tells of “being hurt many times,” where she “settled for less” and “let people take advantage” and “walk all over” her. She vows to learn from her mistakes.”

As Margaret Hartmann writes on Jezebel, “Publishing information like that would be wrong if the victim was an adult, and it’s totally reprehensible in the case of a victim who “comes across like a little girl,” because that’s exactly what she is.” The idea that this girl needs to “learn from her mistakes” is absurdly offensive. It baldly implies that because of her actions, she was raped.

There’s one acceptable response to all of this coverage, and it’s outrage. As Liz Henry passionately writes, “The media is reporting on how she dresses, what the town thinks of how she dresses, where she hangs out, whether she cusses on her Facebook page… ALL COMPLETELY NOT RELEVANT to her being kidnapped and brutally gang raped.”

This is a story about a child who was kidnapped by an adult and forced to have sexual intercourse with a large number of men. The act was recorded and somehow made its way back to her elementary-school classmates. These are the events that McKinley, Horswell and other reporters should be writing about – not about the town’s economic decline, and certainly not what the neighbors think about the victim or her mother.

TAKE ACTION: Click here to sign the petition to tell the New York Times that coverage like this is unacceptable!

Read more: gang rape, media coverage, media sexism, rape, sexual abuse, sexual assault, sexual violence, texas, victim-blaming, violence, womens rights



Read more: 11-Year-Old Girl Gang-Raped By 18 Men In Texas | Care2 Causes


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07-14-2011, 06:06 PM #2 (permalink)
genuinegirly
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Blog Entries: 194 Thank you for sharing this, what disgusting realities.
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07-15-2011, 10:51 PM #3 (permalink)
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Location: hampshire Makes you wonder just how far we have not come doesnt it. A Child victim - its not like its the first time a pack of ferals destroy a kid - I remember a handicapped girl the rapists were lining up for in the news too soon ago. I doubt even Murdochs lot would have villified a child victim in this manner. I feel so sorry for the kid, not only is she living through this, she is going to grow up knowing what was said in the press - internet holds such stuff doesnt it.
Line em up, chop their dicks off with pinking sheers and send them in to prison to 'make new and unusual friends' - heck, throw in a make over so they go in looking prettier. Is it a case of 'its a poor town - and none could afford a willing prostitute'.
I get these things I might like to sign sometimes, and sometimes I think others might like to do the same - hence the post.




Read more: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/ladies-...#ixzz1SNjkkIz5

P.S. - They did not meet her on face book.

The main thing about this web stuff is the allowance of editorial reflection.

Upon such further reflection, and realizing the fused mindset of people like thirtiesgirl, there is no win here and not even a meeting ground. This is radical polarization territory. There is no debate possible. I'll back out of Poetry's thread - except perhaps to browse responses from time to time (there are members who's viewpoints I've come to appreciate over the years).

To be clear, I'm not commenting on vanity, though that may or may not play a role. What I am commenting on is this condemnation of all men automatically. It's this idea that a man who approaches a strange woman under any context, in any circumstances, must automatically be a predator.

One in six North American women are the victim of sexual assault in their lifetime. Alright, I'll buy that, but the same statistics indicate that the overwhelming majority of assaults are perpetrated by someone known to the victim and roughly 70% involve the consumption of alcohol by the victim, the perpetrator or both. Just adding those two little tidbits in there changes the picture a bit, doesn't it? Suddenly it's not random strangers violating women willy nilly, but rather looks to be more like dates gone wrong, people taking things too far. Roughly a third of these sexual assaults are being committed in the victim's own home, and a mere 2% were committed by someone unknown to the victim.

Statistics all culled from here, if you're wondering.

Meanwhile, a man can't sit in a park on a summer day without being labelled a creep. He can't so much as look at a woman, let alone exchange pleasantries. God forbid he needs directions, and it's absolute horror if he has the audacity to express any form of sexuality around a woman who isn't agreeable to it. Naturally a woman doing the same is harmless.

You want anecdotes? I've never sexually assaulted a woman. Like eden, I was once accused of it by a young lady who initiated sexual contact with me, and retroactively decided to label it assault after going back to her ex-boyfriend. I can also tell you that it's rare for me to think of a woman within a sexual context unless I'm actively engaged in a sexual relationship with her, and even when I do it's nothing so concrete as picturing her naked. Am I not meant to appreciate an attractive woman? Is that taboo now too?

When did we start judging people based on their thoughts anyway? Or even better, when did we start judging them based on what we assume their thoughts to be?

On second thought, don't answer that.

The FBI's Uniform Crime Report (UCR) and the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS) also help paint a picture of what Martian illustrated above.

And I'm going to bow out of this thread now.

hahahahaha

priceless

I talk, therefore I want to fuck you.*

...and people wonder why I stay with a woman I don't love anymore....at least I know where the landmines are with her....

*not you specifically MM. Generalizing.

Whatever, Zombie. I know whenever you comment about the weather you're secretly fantasizing about eating my brains.

I'm not sure why rape got entangled in this discussion, but (like Poetry pointed out) it has created such a sharp tangent that there are in reality two conversations going on here.

And I will say it again 'cause for some reason no one wants to touch it. I have been told by men that sex is always on their mind in their dealings with women. If I had the time and inclination, I'm sure I could rummage the site and find dozens of examples of men claiming this to be true. Or, to make things easier, they could come forward now and admit to it or otherwise explain to me how I have misinterpreted this information.

I was being facetious in a couple of posts here. I was doing it as a response to some of the rather offensive posts that preceded them. If I confused you, I'm sorry. I knew I should have started using that irony punctuation (⸮​) for situations such as these.

* * * * *

My takeaway from this thread overall: people can be hypersensitive to misogyny, whilst being either ignorant of or insensitive to misandry*.


*Depending on your position, misandry may or may not actually be a thing.

Personally speaking for myself, I'm not always thinking of sex. Sometimes, I'm thinking about what my cats are doing at that same moment, or how that cloud looks like Lester Pearson, or how I'd better pay attention to what I'm doing otherwise my ferry is going to run over that sailboat.

MM I agree with this. Maybe I am still trying to fight my wiring, or maybe there's something wrong with me (I don't think there is) but yes, I am thinking about sex a lot of the time when talking to women. More accurately put, I am concentrating on not thinking about sex. I can't put a number on it, but certainly a few times a day. The more attractive the woman, the more I think of it.

So there is truth to suspecting that men have sex on their minds at all times.

What do men, the dominant segment of society, the hegemon, stand to lose from this perception?

Well, it did confuse me and I am sorry for doubting the level-headedness you usually display in touchy conversations such as this one.

And I want to state very clearly, that I don't hate men. There are men who participate on this site whose opinions of women I do not respect and the level of tolerance and commiseration for these opinions here has always bothered me. So much so that I eventually stopped contributing to these types of discussions at all. In fact, I think this is the first time in a couple of years that I have posted to a thread about male/female relations at TFP. And it already feels like a mistake.

aberkok, thank you for being forthright enough to address my comments without being ridiculously defensive.

This is where I get confused. Is it wrong to think about sex as much as we do? Is this a disorder of the mind? Is this what's "wrong" with men? Are we only supposed to do what women want us to do, even in our minds?

I'm not comfortable with this position, or maybe it's the language. For one, women in many parts of the Western world aren't the second-class citizens they once were. Second, men have and often do get caught up in unjust situations based on this premise that all men are capable and likely predisposed towards predatory or otherwise depraved actions. False accusations of men who work in schools (or otherwise with children), the sometimes unwarranted disproportionate treatment in family law, etc., are all based on some assumption that men are by their nature a kind of danger.

Maybe it's true and I'm a hopeless idealist. That doesn't change the fact that it makes me uncomfortable.

Maybe I'm a closet womanizer in denial.

Yeah, I usually feel like a jerk when I do this, but I usually do it to make a point. I suppose I rely too much on people knowing what I'm actually like for them to "get" what I'm doing.

I kind of left this open (too lazy to type all my thoughts out at once). I don't feel that it is wrong to think this way. There are levels of involvement when thinking about having sex with the woman in front of you. If it "crosses my mind" which it does when I'm attracted to the woman, that can hardly be helped. If I actively begin to imagine things taking place, i.e. "undressing with my mind", well that might be o.k. when done at a great distance, but if you're doing it to someone you are interacting with, then whether it's right or wrong, you should probably be focusing on the interaction at hand rather than your sexual fantasy. Quash it... think of England or Baseball or heaven forbid, the conversation. Take some responsibility for your thoughts.

Speaking for myself, these thoughts aren't automatic when I talk to all women, or even all attractive ones, but they tend to happen. I won't feel guilt for it, but I will feel guilt, and try to rectify when I've managed to ignore a genuine interaction or spent an entire conversation objectifying a woman. Luckily, thanks to my powerful brain, I can push the sex thoughts out of the way, thanks to a little skill I've been training since kindergarten: focus. Focus is also something the male (and female) brain can get very good at.

---------- Post added at 07:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:16 PM ----------

I don't know of anywhere on earth where women don't have catching up to do. Sure... a woman in North America is less likely to be raped and can probably count on not being circumcised against her will, but to me, that is merely a good start.

For every case a man is unfairly discriminated against, I'm sure there are at least a million where women are (yes I am pulling that statistic from my butt and yes it's an exaggeration, but still...). To my question: "what do men have to lose by being perceived of as Schrodinger's Rapist?" I would answer: "some, but not as much as women still have to gain."

I listened to an interview with Dave Foley from Kids in the Hall and if he makes a million dollars this year, he will just break even thanks to what he owes in child payments thanks to Ontario alimony law. It's those stories that make me feel bad for some bias against men in the courts. But as a whole half of the planet's population, we still have it way better.

Upon re-reading the OP again, I see many topics for discussion.
I chopped these bits today because they popped clearer.
Not sure why really, but I think that some of the difficulty in having an online discussion about male-female relationships is that we are all coming at it from different angles & dimensions.
Especially discussing the online aspect of such.

Generational, regional, socio-economical...etc ...differences.

Another good topic for further discussion could be all about hormones.
Our love/hate relationship with our chemical selves & how easily a disruption can change who & what we thought we were. Identifications.
(I'm a totally different me, since menopause.) for instance.

I gotta go for now.....the dog has to pee & so do I.
Good thread. Look forward to reading more!

It's often the case where people will shrug off injustices because they see others that are more numerous or worse or both. I never liked this view, as it's often counterproductive if not ignorant.

I would never say women don't have their problems and that all societies have a lot of work to do to make it better for them. However, in taking a look at some of the problems men face, it's fallacious to simply state, "Well, big deal; look at women—men have had it good all these centuries" and then shrug it off and move on—especially considering many (if not all) of society's problems are interconnected.

More generally, it isn't very helpful to look at an issue and undermine it by comparing it to other, far worse, issues. We don't shrug off sexual harassment in the workplace by stating, "Pfft! Look at the Middle East! At least you aren't being gang raped and then stoned for being adulterous! Suck it up, sweetie!" *ass slap*

This is more of the same of what I hinted at before. There are many people who don't even acknowledge that misandry is a thing. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that most people don't take it seriously, i.e., they think it's a joke.

Misandry? A hatred of men? Wait, what? It's not wrong to hate men....especially not privileged white men. They have it all.

Look around: men (and boys) aren't all right.

*puts fork down

Am not!

No... I agree.

I feel that here though, we are not lamenting the cases in which men are legally discriminated against. Rather, some of us are lamenting the loss of the right to approach women without being seen as sexual predators. And there's hardly any women who show these extremes of thought!! I've never experienced this cold shoulder we are so offended at getting. Is this a real problem dudes?? Or is it just that we can't accept that some women (probably a minority) feel this way to this extent?

When one of us is saddled with hugely disproportionate alimony payments, I will be the first in line to lament the injustice. If a male school teacher is fired for giving a kid a hug, I will be on the phone to the CBC saying it's out of order.

But you'll never see me tying it all together as a systemic societal problem that requires action. I would consider going to a feminist rally, but never a hominist (?) one.

I don't want my comments to be confused with thinking there is anything "wrong" with men and their sexuality. It has always seemed completely natural and normal to me for men to pursue opportunities and there's never been any real need to argue about it. As long as I have had the opportunity to know men, I have understood (from their own conversations with me) that there is a certain amount of objectification of women going on all the time. And I could have sworn that this same self-observation has been bandied around with much humor and openness right here at TFP, but either that was just my imagination or talking about it from my jaded, old perspective hits a nerve of some kind. It's ok. I understand. But I also understand that the guy who approaches me out of the blue while I am sorting socks at the laundromat wouldn't be as interested in my opinion on the temperature outside if I were there sorting socks with another man. Or if I were a man (exceptions apply, of course). That doesn't mean that I hate him, that I will be rude or unfriendly toward him, that I think he is immoral or perverted or that there is no possibility of moving past that initial encounter to become friends. And it certainly doesn't mean that I consider him to be a threat of some kind. I do not equate male sexuality with criminality. I'm just tired.

Yeah, I get you. I guess my stance is that there is a difference between "women should always be wary of men" vs. "men shouldn't ever approach women."

---------- Post added at 08:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:41 PM ----------

Understood. However, I think the challenge here is in figuring out the differences in how sexuality works between men and women and also in realizing that sexuality alone doesn't make up the sum total of an individual.

It's about the cliche: Men just want to fuck you.

Sure, men want to fuck you, but that doesn't mean that men are just a bunch of walking cocks. That too is objectification, non?

I'm no pro. I hinted before about my sexual passiveness. I'm an introverted repressive mess when it comes to interacting with the opposite sex. All I know is that, as a guy, I find looking at attractive women both sexually and aesthetically pleasing. Does this mean I objectify women? Well, I suppose if I think about their bodies and what I would do to them instead of—oh, I don't know—who she is as a person, then you could call it that. But aren't women capable of doing the same thing when looking at men?

Also, I sincerely doubt it's the case that all men partake in purely objectifying women. We're human too. We think about things such as what she does for a living, wondering what her name is, what her interests are, what she's capable of....

Maybe it's this idealist in me again. Maybe we are just a bunch of walking cocks.

Thinking about these things makes me tired.

Yeah me too. That and it's ninety five degrees Farenheit outside and the dewpoint is 78.

Fine. But I never said or purported any of those things. I'm not trying to ascribe predatory or even inconsiderate motivations to men. I'm not calling men walking cocks.

What I am stating is my own perception of my own experiences as a middle-aged woman with daughters, a pretty healthy sense of reason and enough comfort and experience with men to know what I am talking about.

You know, back to the OP, this thread really just makes me sad and irritated.
Just because a man may think about sex in regards to women, when he talks to one or makes a comment, it doesn't mean that he wants to act on it.
Fer fok's sake, I talk to men all the time and I'm noticing their bodies, or the timbre of their voice and I may have a frisson that gets me all hot and bothered.
Doesn't mean I'd act on that, either.
I approached my man over 7 years ago on a dating site.
It's worked out fairly well, for the most part.
The guys that messaged me, "nice pics," I just ignored.
And I have my own history of trauma.
You just ignore it.
If a guy gets a hard-on talking to you, so fucking what? 90% of them are not going to do a damn thing about it.
I'm embarrassed to think about how many men have witnessed my headlights on, completely not of my own violition.
If you constantly assume that every person that says, "hey, nice pics," or contacts you on a facebook page, in person, in a bar, at the grocery store, simply wants to fuck you, you very well may be missing out on relationships of numerous kinds. Just because someone gives you a complement that you may not like, doesn't mean they're objectifying you.
I've made some pretty great friends from guys that initially spoke to me because of the size of my boobs. I purposefully confront these stereotypes, because I think they're bullshit and their perpetuating unhealthly gender relationships. There will always be inappropriate people of either gender. Neither men nor women deserve to be marginalized. Stereotypes are perpetuated by ignorance, more often than not. There are no blanket statements to cover male behavior or female behavior.
Sometimes, it's not about YOU.

And... I'm out of this thread, the original post makes me want to disassociate myself from "women" as a label. Good Day.

Nor would I suggest it. I was merely pointing out the logical extreme of the general cliche that tends to float up in this thread. I'm not suggesting you specifically imply these things.

This is what I get, and you have good reason. I generally have no problem with your position in this matter. My beef is with some of the other posts in this thread.

yes. this thread sort of has the feel of a party line on Friday night in Tupelo. or how I imagine it might have been...

I'll speak for myself and be totally honest...

I think about sex a lot, I have sexual thoughts about a lot of women I meet, see, work with, are friends with. Last time I checked it was fairly healthy for that to have happen.

Here's the thing though, they're are merely thoughts that, like quantum flux, fleetingly pop into existence and leave just as fast. I, and other men, despite having these thoughts, still respect women, still like to engage women in intelligent conversation, and still like to get to know the women we come across as people. In other words, we are perfectly capable of control ourselves and being respectful, decent human beings.

Personally, in my own country, I still believe sexism is rampant and a lot of blokes need to really readjust their attitudes. Especially fucking footballers in our various codes of sport. I absolutely abhor the treatment women receive in other countries. And I think women should be able to wear what ever the hell they like and not have men see it as an invitation to be assaulted.

I will back women's issues 100% in most cases, but I will not stand for having people presume my intentions or my character simply because I'm male and initiate an innocent conversation. If that's the attitude one wants to take, than one should go live in the mountains alone. Your shit world view is simply not my problem. I personally get a little riled up by even being indirectly a potential rapist because I've been the victim of sexual abuse myself. Yes, men can get the short end of the stick too.

But as heated and divisive as this thread has become, lets just step back and remember that we interact with people of opposite sex nearly every day of our lives and on the whole, they're OK. The cold hard reality is we need each other, differences and all, and taking an us and them attitude isn't going to make your life or any ones lives any easier, it just involves more people getting pissed off.

I think it is the times we live in. I met an elderly gentleman whilst out walking my dogs one day, and we stopped and he said hello to the dogs, and told me how he had recently lost his elderly canine companion. When his dog was alive, he would walk it, and chat to the other dog walkers - mostly ladies after they have dropped the kids off, and the rest a mixed bunch. Since he had lost his dog, it seemed they were avoiding him as he was now a man on his own and not a fellow dog walker. I thought it was very sad, he obviously appreciated a canine head to rub and eyes to look into as he told me of the things his old mate had gotten up to with him, what a pity those other ladies forgot who they had found him to be, and reacted to societies perception that this man approaching you and saying good morning or passing the time of day is something to be so scared of, this elderly gentleman who a relatively small dag could drag down the street.

Thanks for bringing this to our attention, chinese_watertorture. Honestly. It's a good cause. In the future, though, please try to get my username correct, ok? It's not "thirtysomething," it's thirtiesgirl, in reference to my interest in the style & decor of the 1920s and '30s. This information can be easily found by clicking on my username and profile information, or maybe perusing my intro in the "newbies" thread, where I briefly explained my username. It's kind of like getting to know a woman before you approach her in public or on FB. Spend a little time getting to know her, and I guarantee you'll get a better response. To borrow a line from Ms. Janet Jackson, "no, my first name ain't 'baby'; it's Janet, Ms. Jackson if you're nasty." Get it right.

From reading some of the guys' responses in this thread, it's apparent that there still is no safe place online, except maybe a sexual assault and rape survivors' forum, for women to assert themselves and tell men to leave us alone if we don't want to be approached. Noodle whines that "it's not all about you" (i.e., women). But that's the point: it is. When you approach a woman and she tells you to get lost or doesn't respond to you, her reasons for doing so are all about her, not you. Maybe she was the victim of a sexual assault. Maybe she has other things on her mind and is too busy to pay attention to some dude who just wants a little attention. You have no way of knowing. So instead of assuming that women think you're a "walking cock," that you're an "automatic predator," that you plan to "ram [us] deep and hard while [we] shriek in horror," stop thinking about yourselves for half a minute and realize that there may be other reasons she doesn't want to talk to you. Respect those reasons, whatever they may be, and leave her the hell alone. If she doesn't want to talk to you, quit insisting "but I'm really a nice guy, I just want to talk to you," and walk away. Again, aren't we allowed to be female in public or on social networking sites without guys believing they have a right to get in our space?

It saddens me that we still can't assert our right to be left alone and have this conversation online without guys whining that it's "misandry," that we "automatically assume all men are sexual predators," ad infinitum. It doesn't make me feel very comfortable or very much like participating in places like this, and makes me wonder why I continue to try.

Or maybe the Ladies Lounge that was mentioned? I know exactly what you mean about safe places to discuss things. Unfortunately, I have yet to find a place that I can trust where I can discuss my own issues.

You don't get it. The point isn't whether we understand that a woman may or may not want to interact. We get that. The point is that it was implied that "men just don't get that there are reasons why doesn't want to talk to you" and that "all men want to do is fuck." We're not all uncivilized animals. Most of us aren't. That's the point.

I have no idea what you're talking about here. You seem to be simply projecting specific situations of one source or another. Again, the problem is that you're assuming men don't (or can't) get this or don't—gasp!—completely support this idea without your even having to bring it up.

Again, you don't get it. We're not against the asserting of women's right to be left alone. That's not even the topic of this thread.

If you're uncomfortable in participating here because of what you say, it's not because of any unfairness or wrongdoing. It seems to me it's because of a misunderstanding.

If we can't "whine" about misandry, then why do you feel entitled to "whine" about misogyny? What ever happened to the idea of equality? Or are you saying I'm wrong about the misandry? Is there misandry in this thread or not?

Thirtiesgirl - apologies, my memory often does not hold a word long enough, and I guess and think I have it. Titles of television shows become uch more interesting than they are, because somewhere when I am reading them, I become like a dyslexic I guess. No offence meant - total accident.

While we're going on with the lecturing, there is a much nicer and concise way to point out what was an honest mistake.

Old fashioned gentlemanly behaviour always makes me smile Baraka.

Agree.