mixedmedia

Um, perhaps he's referring to the bit where he searched her luggage and examined her panties.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Manic_Skafe

You very well may support the manner in which the OP has behaved in attempting to crack the case so long as his actions were motivated much more so by some warped sense of self-interest (nobody threatens my cans of tuna/boxes of cheerios/ "Spartan Lifestyle") than plainly being vindictive but I disagree. The ends very well may justify the means but a relationship founded on mutual trust and respect wouldn't have allowed for all of this.

Simply put, he's violated her trust as well.

__________________
"Porn is a zoo of exotic animals that becomes boring upon ownership." -Nersesian

Plan9

Aaah, the old circular argument:

A: Something Is Weird - He Doesn't Look
- wouldn't find anything
- somehow "trust" would still be there

B: Something Is Weird - He Looks
- discovers tangible weird things
- "trust" is gone fo-eva

So where is the win? Gently interrogating his partner and hoping for truth?

Don't be naive, dude. I'm sure you've told plenty of lies in your time, too.

...

My point: If he isn't comfortable enough with his wife to talk to her face-to-face, doubt moved in a long time ago.

...

Also: Somebody show me the "trust vs. doubt" continuum. Enlighten me.

...

Spartan? Hah... hardly. I prefer two-ply.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Manic_Skafe

"Spartan" was a reference to our Lord Rollins.

Firstly, we're talking about dealing with women here - there is no winning.

Secondly, I've already said in this thread that I can empathize with the OP and can even imagine myself snooping exactly as he did. However, regardless of whether his suspicions are confirmed or not, two wrongs don't make a right. Pedantic or not, it's still true.

Where has it been argued that a good and healthy relationship is entirely devoid of doubt? I've lied and have been lied to in my dealings with the fairer sex and if there's anything it's taught me. it's that relationships are far too dynamic and complex to be nailed down by concepts as inaccurate and inflexible as trust and doubt.

To be clear, I have no real problem with the fact that he's snooped and I even disagree with those that believe their relationship to be so far-gone that whether or not she's cheated is irrelevant since it'd only be another nail in the coffin. The truth of the matter counts and he has every right to know whether or not he's been betrayed.

However, none of that excuses his own wrongdoings.

__________________
"Porn is a zoo of exotic animals that becomes boring upon ownership." -Nersesian

mixedmedia

I didn't think to offer it up before, but I think it's relevant enough to cast a little mercy the way of the wife.

When I travel, I always pack my best underwear and often I pack matching underwear. Doesn't mean someone is going to see it. It means I feel that I am away from my regular world and want to feel a little more 'put together' than I am normally. It's a girly thing, but there it is.

As for the trust issue, yes, by the time you've gone through the luggage and checked out the crotch of the panties, something is already wrong - regardless of what she did or did not do. The only real evidence to go on in this situation is the fact that she had threesomes in the past and told him about it. Now it has become a pendulum hanging over her head. If she is innocent, then that kind of sucks.

But back to the point of the conversation, the best way to get to the bottom of this is to sit down and talk about it. Maybe that's not possible given the already volatile circumstances, but snooping around is not a constructive or viable alternative, in my opinion. It's Jerry Springer show behavior - the very model of relationship disaster scenarios.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

snowy

I was mulling this scenario over in the shower earlier, and several things that occurred to me: 1) yes, I shave for special occasions, regardless of whether those occasions involve my SO or not, 2) said shaving often results in juicier panties as there is less hair to catch said juices, regardless of whether or not I'm hot and bothered, 3) certain vaginal conditions can also result in juicier panties than usual, such as yeast infections. Additionally, wearing sexy panties is something women do when they want to feel special--it doesn't necessarily mean a woman is looking to get some.

As for the past threesome thing, using it in this conflict is really nothing more than a kind of ambush, as mm suggested.

__________________
If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

Spiker

Really good points mixedmedia and snowy, I still cant get my head around the fact that she left in one pair of underwear as I watched her get dressed, came home in a different pair and some where in between she wore these black lacy ones? She'd already showered etc before she left our place. Cant get my head around it.

mixedmedia

You need to just ask her.
I don't want to come off as unnecessarily harsh on you. My reactions have been directed more at the pile-on that seemed to happen at the beginning of this conversation.
There are other possible explanations for the things you've observed, it's important to remain open to them, I think. It's a particularly difficult situation because of your recent argument and you probably feel a little like you're walking on eggshells. But it's important to air your suspicions and get past it, otherwise they will persist in haunting you every time you 'notice something' about your wife, know what I mean?

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Charlatan

I would just like to say that I am in complete agreement with Skafe, Snowy and Mixedmedia on this. I would also like to emphasize that I don't want to suggest the relationship is over. It might be but it's impossible to say with the limited information we have here.

The key is to communicate clearly and openly with her how you are feeling. If you can't get over your feelings of mistrust, you will have to make some decisions.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

BigIrishApe

I wish I had some sage advice to offer, but in this situation, it's slim. As a guy who had his life ripped apart by a cheater, it's never easy to look at a situation objectively when you're in the thick of it.



You could, however, take the Sit Com route...

Wait for a night when she comes home after you from work. Work yourself into a hysterical fit, at least the male equivalent of it. When she comes in, try to act like nothing is wrong. Sniffle a bit. Cry silently. When she persists, give her a mild verbal lash-out. "I know what you did!" "I can't believe you'd do something like that after all this time!" "I know I haven't been perfect, but this?!" Etc...

Be vague on purpose. Be angry enough to act like you've been cuckolded and found out, but be sad enough to really seem hurt to the core. More hurt than angry. Women are emotional beings. If she picks up on your general tone, your vague words might just twinge her guilt button. If she has a heart, this is where she will apologize profusely, begin crying, and swear to be faithful from here on out.

At that point you sniffle a few times, stop crying, and say "What?" She repeats herself. You say, "You cheated on me?! I was just angry you left the milk out again!"

You're innocent of suspicion of her, she admits guilt, and you end up the on the moral high-ground.

Ba-dump-bump.

If she questions you later on why the milk caused such melodrama, just say, "It involves tobasco, a milk cow named Beatrice, and a rodeo clown ...but I can say no more! The pain after all these years! Still so fresh... *sob*"

Charlatan

Nothing like the passive aggressive approach to make a tough situation better.

(that was sarcasm by the way)

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Idyllic

Spiker, man , get out now, no not the marriage. Man some of these people are just twisting you up to spin so they can live vicariously through your experience. You know what to do. I've been so angry at my husband, then we made up and I got super drunk and did the whole weed wacker thing too, that was still for him. just because her panties were wet, doesn't mean shit, she could have been thinking about you.

The real question is if YOU want to make it work or not. If you do want to make it work then get involved with her again, to the point where you are the one she wants to have sex with. At this point the only thing you'll prove with confrontation, is either you don't trust her, or your looking for a way out.

__________________
you can tell them all you want but it won't matter until they think it does

p.s. I contradict my contradictions, with or without intention, sometimes.

BigIrishApe

Yarp! That's why it's the "Sit Com" approach. As in, "this shit only works on television!" haha

ASU2003

I liked that method. I'll have to remember it (though hopefully will never have to use it).

evilmatt

I'm not trying to live vicariously through Spiker, I'm trying to prevent another trusting husband getting his heart ripped out of his chest and stomped on by a woman who thinks she has a right to do it because of some misguided and righteous indignation. My strategy of approaching the friend and husband has all tracks covered if his wife isn't cheating on him. Even if they go to his wife and tell her they think he suspects something it's all good in the hood, he just wanted to ask them if he could swing with next time she was heading up to their place because he likes spending time with friends.

If there's no trust in the relationship no amount of lying is going to change that, she's going to lie about her infidelity for certain. No one confesses that shit until everything is over. Best he knows what time it is instead of waiting and hoping his wife has some brilliant flash of conscience that's never coming.

Plan9

I think it is very interesting how this thread reveals the character of some people. I'd like to know more. Good stuff.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Spiker

Well, my suspicions were right, just a different scenario. She was not a her GF's, she met a married co-worker at a hotel and had a affair. She confessed this morning after I uncovered more evidence.

So tonight we sit down, she doesn't really know what she wants. I can get passed the infidelity with time to salvage our relationship and family. I'm crushed, but I still do love the woman.

Plan9

So, what was her reason for the infidelity?

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

LAW2

I'm really sorry to hear that. Similiiar thing happened to me. After some ineffective counseling and some snooping I confirmed what I suspected. Even after the pain and betrayal I was willing to take her back. Luckily I did not as I am a better person for it and was acting out of fear and trying to cling to past.
For me a drunken one night stand is much easier to accept than a planned event. Feel free to PM me if you wish. You're about to start a long road, but if you make some good and thoughtful decisions it can be less bumpy.

evilmatt

Yes, very sorry to hear your suspicions were correct. Having been through that I know firsthand how awful it feels. Just remember you're fine, you'll continue to be fine and everything will be alright.

Funny though, if you had gone the route I suggested her friend and husband would have no idea what you were talking about and that would've been very interesting indeed.

Keep your chin up, remember once a cheater, always a cheater. Don't get suckered into being a sucker.

mixedmedia

wow, I'm really sorry, but I'm glad that you approached her and got the truth.
being that she took such little care to cover it up...perhaps, as they say, she wanted to get caught.
move carefully from here on out.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Plan9

Oh, I see how it is. Now that the crime is uncovered... the evidence is good.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

mixedmedia

well, her telling him is pretty convincing evidence
are you under the impression that everything is always as it seems to you?

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Cimarron29414

Spiker:

I really sorry to hear that. As a very similar thing happened to my best friend, I have seen it's impact. It's really tough to get over the breach of trust.

How long have you been married?
Do you have any children together?

P.S. Feel free to go tell the wife of the co-worker. Couldn't happen to a nicer guy.

__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

Idyllic

Good luck Spiker, I hope for you and your family everything works out and you can both find happiness, preferably together. No marriage is perfect.

__________________
you can tell them all you want but it won't matter until they think it does

p.s. I contradict my contradictions, with or without intention, sometimes.

evilmatt

Yeah I know, right? Not much changed about the evidence that caused his initial suspicions so it looks like those of us that called a spade a spade were right after all. Intuition is so very powerful, people should trust it and not assume people are innocent before being proven guilty if they suspect they're guilty from the get-go. It might not fly on a jury but when it comes to those close to you lying and deceiving you, your intuition is the best armor for your heart.

mixedmedia

All I did was offer alternatives. With an emphasis on talking about it rather than playing detective with her friends. It was just as likely that other scenarios would have been true.

I'm remembering this conversation the next time one of those 'I think my boyfriend is cheating so I snooped on his computer' discussions happen.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Daniel_

Of course, calling the friend would have elicited some truth, as the story of "I went to see X" wouldn't tally with "she wasn't here" - given enough discussion this breaks down.

As it happens, this was exactly how I found about my ex wife's infidelity - she "visited a friend" while I looked after our toddler and built bookcases, but when I asked her what she'd done for two days she cracked totally and her story evaporated.

Within 6 hours of her coming home she'd spilled the beans and our marriage was over.

__________________

╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗
Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
And everthing is Green and Submarine
╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

Manic_Skafe

What's that even supposed to mean and why does it read as judgmental and prickish - both of which are unlike you.

The evidence was never in question but rather the morality of the methods employed in finding it. If you find it so hard to agree with the obviously reasonable notion that one should respect their partner's privacy so as to not rummage through their things and turn a microscope to their underwear then you really should just agree to disagree.

The fact that she was actually carrying on an affair is no more a validation of his actions than her cheating is anything more than one of the many issues from which this relationship is suffering.

What's your point?

---------- Post added at 09:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:59 PM ----------

And it's not like your assertion is only based on one half of a fraction of a story told via an internet forum. Brilliant.

__________________
"Porn is a zoo of exotic animals that becomes boring upon ownership." -Nersesian

evilmatt

Well seeing as we're on an Internet forum and can only post responses based on our opinions regarding the story being told, I think I am perfectly in line. If no one is supposed to make assertions "based on one half of a fraction of a story" then it would be a really boring Internet. Instead we get to glean what few fact we can from what someone is willing to tell us and go with it.

And in this case I was totally right. Tragic, but right.

mixedmedia

How were you totally right? You suggested he make a call to her friends that would have only made things worse.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

BigIrishApe

Spiker, I got 2 words for you.


STD TEST


Just cover your bases man...

Cernunnos

Recovering trust in one another will be difficult. She owned up to her affair, but how much evidence was required before the breaking point? Some thoughts to consider.

1. How will the affair affect your wife at work? If she interacts regularly with this fellow, she may need to quit or be reassigned elsewhere, and if her boss discovers what happened, her employment could be terminated.
2. Should the wife of the other man be informed? They may have children together, and calling her up could result in a broken home. For all you know, she could also be cheating on him.
3. Will you forgive her and attempt to mend the damage? Being caught with the knowledge that you no longer trust her could drive your wife even further away, causing her to simply be more discreet in her future affairs.

evilmatt

Totally right in that she was being unfaithful. The call to her friend and husband would have confirmed his fears as well, as they would have no idea what he was talking about with regards to her being at their place. If she's such an upstanding person as to lie to her husband and cheat on him, well maybe losing a friend or two out of the deal isn't the worst thing.

alicat

Everything I had to say in this thread has already been said, with the exception of the following.

Prefaced by the fact that I am neither a doctor nor expert on female reproductive systems, I am the owner of a vagina. According to one "Dr. Oz", amongst others, the va-jay-jay is a self cleansing organ (NO douching!).

It's the one hole men don't have and, yes, the moisture ends up somewhere. It ends up in our underwear unless a pad is involved (for most of us that's when Aunt Flo is around). My point is that, even though I think the wife in this situation is/was suspect, visible anything on BLACK panties is NO evidence that some other guy has been there. Then again, I don't know because I haven't been in that situation in 21 yrs.

__________________
'Beware the Jabberwock, my son! The jaws that bite, the claws that catch! Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun, The frumious Bandersnatch!'--Jabberwocky, Lewis Carroll

"You cannot do a kindness too soon because you never know how soon it will be too late."--Ralph Waldo Emerson

Manic_Skafe

Totally right in having confirmed the popular assessment of your advice as the least useful offered. And now you're patting yourself on the back because you've wagered properly when the odds were one out of two. Aren't we lucky to have a soothsayer such as yourself 'round these parts.

Get real.

__________________
"Porn is a zoo of exotic animals that becomes boring upon ownership." -Nersesian

Cimarron29414

evilmatt,

The only difference between you and those who are arguing with you are that they recommended a different method of flushing out the truth. I believe most of us were as suspicious as the OP that something just wasn't right about this out of town trip.

__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

Plan9

Perhaps because you read it wrong. I do have an off switch for my sarcasm, bro. I find the content of this thread very interesting because I've experienced similar situations in my life and I wonder if others have as well and how they dealt with them. The philosophy involved is intriguing. How do I justify my complacency? How do I justify my "morality" despite being stonewalled by a partner? So... Frankie Says Relax, Skafe.

And hey, I can be just as judgmental and prickish as any other forum post champ in here. Are you pissed because you have competition or something?



Well-well, I shall agree to disagree then. We see this situation differently. In legal terms, you seem to see it as "fruit of the poisonous tree," whereas I see it as "plain sight" and "inevitable discovery." My point is not that he shouldn't have searched, but that when he did search (and I recognize it was "wrong") based on That Wonky Feelin', he uncovered something that added to those wonky facts. It went from reasonable suspicion to probable cause. Sure, she confessed, but even before that there was a little more than "one out of two" chance that she was cheating, dude.

I can't believe I'm going to say it but: People cheat all the time. Why think your relationship is any different? Because you "know" your partner? Hah! Hell, I've been cheated on twice. Sadly, I wouldn't know anything about partner privacy. I've never had any, myself. My last few partners fixed me of that little hurdle. They used to dig and dig in "my stuff" and yet they were the ones that decided to bounce on another crotch. Oh, the irony.

As is with all things in life, there is a difference between the mission statement hanging on the wall and the reality of the job.

Relationships are no different.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Manic_Skafe

Well we all have our talents - don't cramp my style.

I don't think anyone has argued the point you're attempting to counter. Some suggested offering her the benefit of the doubt which is more than reasonable enough but, yeah - what's wrong is still wrong regardless of what's at stake.

Contrary to what you've suggested, I've written everything I've posted in this thread not only with an understanding that in The Real World people cheat but also with the belief that by the time the need to invade the privacy of your partner arises, infidelity is very likely the least of issues from which your relationship suffers.

...

__________________
"Porn is a zoo of exotic animals that becomes boring upon ownership." -Nersesian

Cimarron29414

I was just thinking, you know he searched the bag and it produced evidence. The question I have, Striker, is what motivated you to search the bag? Was it simply that she shaved that had you check it when she came back? I suppose all of this is rather unimportant at this point - you've got bigger fish to fry. Hope you find peace, man.

__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."